Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

Who do you take in a re-draft - 18yr old Crosby vs 18 yr old McDavid


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banks

Only got 3 of 16.
Aug 29, 2019
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Re-drafting Crosby with what we know now means he could avoid some of his injury struggles.

Plus we still don't know how long McDavid will be a premier player. He's been that for 8 years. Sid has now proven he can be that for 18. That proven staying power has value.

I'm taking Sid.
 

Mirka the Turka

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Oct 20, 2022
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Right but your fantasy doesn't even comport with itself.

Starting a team with McDavid vs starting a team with Crosby at least has the possibility of being a realistic hypothetical. "Knowing what we know now" need not include assumptions that are utterly incompatible with themselves - as you have injected.



Is he? As evidenced by what exactly?

McDavid does more penalty killing and more defensive zone draws.

Well just watch Crosby now or in his prime and he plays well defensively. McDavid just cheats and he’s on the ice for numerous goals against. Those defensive draws mean nothing because it’s just to get McDavid on the ice.
 

Cap'n Flavour

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Mar 8, 2004
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Take Crosby if you think the Laich hit was a fluke and he had more room to grow from age 22/23, or if you think McDavid's been lucky with injuries so far.
 

Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
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Right but your fantasy doesn't even comport with itself.

Starting a team with McDavid vs starting a team with Crosby at least has the possibility of being a realistic hypothetical. "Knowing what we know now" need not include assumptions that are utterly incompatible with themselves - as you have injected.



Is he? As evidenced by what exactly?

McDavid does more penalty killing and more defensive zone draws.
“Knowing what we know now” is Crosby led his clubs to three Cups and McDavid hasn’t won one.
I’m a fan of my club. In the fantasy of this thread I will take Crosby in his draft year and have his three Cups in my home town.
 
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Midnight Judges

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Well just watch Crosby now or in his prime and he plays well defensively.

Yeah I watch Crosby all the time. He's awful defensively, or at best indifferent. He's a 'first guy out' / 'last guy back' kind of player and always has been. Sidney Crosby is deployed overwhelmingly for offense and plays very little defense.

Other centers on the Pens over the years have been the opposite - defensively responsible. Staal, Bonino, Sheahan - they all played far more defensively responsible than Sid.

BTW I don't think there is anything wrong with that because Sid's defense can be replicated or improved by pretty much any scrub in the NHL. But his offense is all-time elite and so this is the way things ought to be.

What's wrong is the massive amount of credit Crosby gets defensively when in fact he doesn't contribute much. In fact after the hockey media crowned Crosby a great defensive player, the Pen's Goals against per game played went down when Sid was out for an extended period.
 

blundluntman

Registered User
Jul 30, 2016
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Here we go again with the "Crosby 2 way game" revisionist rhetoric. The two are close but not at all for that reason. I'm not all that certain that Crosby would lead the Oilers to a Stanley Cup by any means when you consider the fact that the Oilers' greatest problem is their defense and goaltending. They're pretty close but given Crosby's injury issues, I'd take McDavid by a hair. If all things were equal, you couldn't go wrong with either one. The fact of the matter is, you can't just fill in the blanks when it comes to Crosby's injuries during his peak, we don't know if he maintains that pace over the course of a full season bc we never got to see that happen.
 

SomeDude

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Mar 6, 2006
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Re-drafting Crosby with what we know now means he could avoid some of his injury struggles.

Plus we still don't know how long McDavid will be a premier player. He's been that for 8 years. Sid has now proven he can be that for 18. That proven staying power has value.

I'm taking Sid.
This is actually a good point. With the caveat of “what we know now,” Crosby doesn’t miss so much time in his prime with a mis-diagnosed concussion that was actually a neck injury.
 

AvroArrow

Mitch "The God" Marner
Jun 10, 2011
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"Knowing what we know"

What we know is Sid has won 3 cups and every award imaginable. Not a fair question and based on the premise of the question this should be Crosby in a landslide.
 

Midnight Judges

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"Knowing what we know"

What we know is Sid has won 3 cups and every award imaginable. Not a fair question and based on the premise of the question this should be Crosby in a landslide.

I mean, you have to use a little common sense here.

We also know that he's a Penguin, he's on Malkin's team, and he played with Marian Hossa for a few Months, he lived in Mario's basement, and on December 18, 2008 he played against the Atlanta Thrashers.

^^^Some of these "knowing what we know" elements are integral to the player's characteristics. Some are not.
 

Video Nasty

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Mar 12, 2017
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Ten more years doesn't really matter much here. For all players nearly all of their hardware is won before age 30. Realistically McDavid only has 3-4 years of winning hardware before decline hits.

We’ll have to wait and see. In this “modern” era of sports where the elite are dominating longer than ever and efforts are made to protect players more and help extend careers (among a number of other reasons), it wouldn’t exactly shock me to see McDavid win at least as many Art Rosses as Gretzky and Lemieux did inside their 30s (2 apiece).

I think the historical data we have from the past is relevant, in terms of when players won their individual hardware, but if we followed it stringently, we wouldn’t have Ovechkin potting 50 throughout, Crosby himself still looking like a million bucks going into his age 36 season, or examples like Brady and LeBron being as incredible as they have/had for so long.

God forbid Bedard doesn’t pan out. The door would then be wide open for McDavid to continue collecting hardware up to a decade from now.
 

The90

Registered User
Feb 27, 2017
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Crosbys teams finished top 5 in the league 7 times and top 10 fourteen times. Made the playoffs 16 times.

McDavids teams have made the playoffs 5 times and finished top 10 twice, top 5 never.

Crosby had better teams. Its not close.
Has mcdavid tried playing defence? It’s what Sid and his Pens did. I think they might’ve done well with it too.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
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No team would be upset at being number two in that redraft, but McDavid. Crosby’s key advantage over McDavid was being drafted by an unquestionably better-run organization.
This is really revisionist history. The Penguins were considered to be a joke organization who were behind the times and had emerged from bankruptcy not that long ago.
 

No Fun Shogun

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This is really revisionist history. The Penguins were considered to be a joke organization who were behind the times and had emerged from bankruptcy not that long ago.

I'm not suggesting that the Pens were good when Crosby got there, but there's really no denying that Pittsburgh was able to draft, develop, and attract talent much better after that than Edmonton has been able to since they got McDavid.
 
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GRob83

Registered User
Feb 3, 2010
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It could be argued that Crosby wasn't the Penguins best player during any of their Cup runs. There is no chance Edmonton makes any noise in the playoffs if McDavid isn't leading the way, even with Draisaitl scoring 13 goals in 12 games they couldn't make the Conference final.
 

Asinine

yer opinion is wrong
Feb 28, 2013
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Crosby because he is a winner. McDavid is just some guy that vehemently pursues empty net points and goes home and watches his highlight videos on Youtube.
 
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Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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It could be argued that Crosby wasn't the Penguins best player during any of their Cup runs. There is no chance Edmonton makes any noise in the playoffs if McDavid isn't leading the way, even with Draisaitl scoring 13 goals in 12 games they couldn't make the Conference final.
Have the McDavid led Oilers made noise in the playoffs? Three Cups for my club is why I draft Crosby. His clubs make noise in the playoffs. I want that on my club.
 

bambamcam4ever

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Feb 16, 2012
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I think they’re pretty close in terms of talents. McDavid is certainly having a better individual career at the same age at this point, but I think Crosby could have done something similar with better health. His injuries weren’t the Forsberg or Lindros variety either where you’re likely going to see them play out regardless of how many times you play their careers over again, and McDavid also had two major injuries, one of which just didn’t result in missed time due to when it occurred. Still, it’s hard to go against the player who has actually done it.

As for winning, I don’t think McDavid should be punished for his GMs putting poor teams around him. I think he also seems incredibly dedicated and driven so I’m not sure if Crosby has any discernible additional impact on the players around him in terms of either leadership or making players better.

That said, it is interesting that the Pens were regularly able to find decent depth players, and the team was able roll on most despite injuries to their top stars. While I think management seemed to do a good job of having Wilkes-Barre players in a similar system ready to plug and play, I think the biggest advantage Crosby might have in terms of helping his team outside of individual play is that his style seems better suited to a winning system that can be implemented up and down the lineup. McDavid’s at his best when he can go North-south at any opportunity, and in general he tilts the ice as well or better than Crosby from it. But it’s not a style that can be replicated throughout a lineup by lesser players and so you end up in a bit of situation where the team is playing differently depending on who is out there. Is it enough to take Crosby despite the difference in health and individual accolades so far? I’m honestly not too sure.
I don't think it's Crosby's particular style, but his capability and willingness to adapt his game, he's not forcing his preferred playstyle onto his team. He's the league in ppg during a season under 4 different coaches:

-Therrien, who ran a defensive, trapping style
- Bylsma, who attempted to have a quick transition, aggressive forechecking system who tried to have the centers carry the puck
- Johnston's more east/ west and passive system
-Sullivan, a great coach but did not funnel the puck towards his star centers and implemented a more distributed transition game

I'm not suggesting that the Pens were good when Crosby got there, but there's really no denying that Pittsburgh was able to draft, develop, and attract talent much better after that than Edmonton has been able to since they got McDavid.
What talent did the Penguins draft/develop in the first 9 years after Crosby was drafted?

And they attracted talent because of Crosby. Players don't want to go to the Oilers so they can play 97's preferred system that only he can execute
 

No Fun Shogun

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What talent did the Penguins draft/develop in the first 9 years after Crosby was drafted?

And they attracted talent because of Crosby. Players don't want to go to the Oilers so they can play 97's preferred system that only he can execute

Letang, Rust, Maata, and Guentzel, though they certainly had loads of misses like basically any team without many early picks. And they developed and honed the earlier drafted Malkin, too.

That being said, crediting exclusively Crosby and blaming only McDavid seems like a pretty obviously pushing a perspective. Pittsburgh being a more attractive city and a team more readily competiting are assuredly bigger factors than one dude's system versus another's (and even if it wasn't, that sounds like a coaching issue).
 

The Grim Reaper

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I've seen Crosby change his style of play or improve upon weaknesses in his game during the offseason 4-5 times throughout his career (face-offs, goal scoring, deflections, defense, etc) to better his team. McDavid plays the same style and has the same weaknesses as when he entered the league.
 
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Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
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Nobody is saying "he alone" is the reason. Or at least - I certainly am not.

The one talking in absolutes is you. Crosby gets 0 credit for team success as per your posts. Which is as dumb a take as cup counting.

As his team's best player, he should get some credit for his team's successes over his career. How much is debatable.
As per the coach himself Crosby sets the tone for everything. How the players practice, their work ethic, standards, expectations. Despite the stats there's no doubt he has been the engine behind it all. It rubs off on people up and down the organization.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Sep 26, 2003
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Yeah I watch Crosby all the time. He's awful defensively, or at best indifferent. He's a 'first guy out' / 'last guy back' kind of player and always has been. Sidney Crosby is deployed overwhelmingly for offense and plays very little defense.

Other centers on the Pens over the years have been the opposite - defensively responsible. Staal, Bonino, Sheahan - they all played far more defensively responsible than Sid.

BTW I don't think there is anything wrong with that because Sid's defense can be replicated or improved by pretty much any scrub in the NHL. But his offense is all-time elite and so this is the way things ought to be.

What's wrong is the massive amount of credit Crosby gets defensively when in fact he doesn't contribute much. In fact after the hockey media crowned Crosby a great defensive player, the Pen's Goals against per game played went down when Sid was out for an extended period.
I agree he wasn't great defensively when he was young. The advanced stats say he's a good defensive player now though. And his peers voted him the #1 most complete player in the game just this season.
 
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