Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[Midnight Judges]

“Knowing now what we do about these two players” which one would you draft. I kind of hate both those teams. But one player, Crosby, led his club to three Cups. I want him on my team from his draft year and the three Cups.
That’s how I’m interpreting the thread.

Ah cool. Then Kunitz > Crosby because he has 4 cups.

This makes total sense.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

As has been mentioned before, Crosby has been injured enough to see his teams record with and without him in the lineup, so the whole theory of him elevating his teams to greatness can be either be proven by numbers or thrown in the trash as garbage. Its not my theory so I'm not looking it up, but you're welcome to prove to me its not garbage if you like.

It's actually a shocking stat, but the pens point percentage without Crosby, without Malkin, without both, or with both are all nearly identical. Last I checked it was around .635

 

[bigdog16]

Indeed, Crosby took 60 point Kunitz and elevated him all the way up to 68 points.

That's a 13% improvement.

There is no way anyone can point to a player who had a 13% improvement playing with McDavid!

Kunitz ended up being a Olympic gold medal winner from riding Crosby's tail.

I don't remember seeing Kailer Yamamoto, Tyler Ennis or Patrick Maroon in the olympics.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Ah cool. Then Kunitz > Crosby because he has 4 cups.

This makes total sense.

Toews > Lemieux

 

[Fatass]

Well no. Placing Crosby on a different team doesn't automatically result in three cups though. If Crosby was on the Coyotes from 2005-2023, he's almost certainly got zero cups.

You are assuming the outcome, which is a logical fallacy.

Where’s the logic in a fantasy?
We simply are interpreting the thread differently. I’m not suggesting which of the two is better. Just that one guy leads his club (in his career) to three Cups. That’s what we know now. I want that guy in 2005 and the three Cups he leads his clubs to on my team. That’s a fantasy. No logic.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Kunitz ended up being a Olympic gold medal winner from riding Crosby's tail.

I don't remember seeing Kailer Yamamoto, Tyler Ennis or Patrick Maroon in the olympics.

Do you remember RNH scoring 100 points? It was just last season.

 

[TGWL]

A young Crosby would consistently be putting up over 125 points these days. Does he match 150? Maybe not, but he brings so much to the table that it's so hard to not choose him. Of course if you're going the other way and putting a young McDavid in a league nearly 15-18 years ago, his speed absolutely create havoc for every team.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It's actually a shocking stat, but the pens point percentage without Crosby, without Malkin, without both, or with both are all nearly identical. Last I checked it was around .635

I appreciate the honesty from a Pens fan, I just think its silly to suggest that Crosby somehow was so great that he alone was the reason for a 15 year regular season dynasty so to speak.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I appreciate the honesty from a Pens fan, I just think its silly to suggest that Crosby somehow was so great that he alone was the reason for a 15 year regular season dynasty so to speak.

I even picked Crosby in the poll, but I'm always on the side of truth. I think Edmonton management only recently has been putting a quality team behind McDavid. And there's still a couple holes to address.

 

[Midnight Judges]

A young Crosby would consistently be putting up over 125 points these days. Does he match 150? Maybe not, but he brings so much to the table that it's so hard to not choose him.

Really? Like what?

Certainly not penalty killing - McDavid does more of that than Crosby. And certainly not defensive deployment - McDavid has also been deployed more defensively than Sid.

So I'm curious, what is this "so much more to the table" you speak of.

 

[Fatass]

Ah cool. Then Kunitz > Crosby because he has 4 cups.

This makes total sense.

Where is the sense in the fantasy world of HF, especially this thread?
If having Kunitz on my club meant four Cups then for sure I’d want him. Henry Richard won a couple hands full of Cups. Sure, in the fantasy world his Cups, but on the club I cheer for, would be great!
Asking which player between McDavid and Crosby (as opposed to what’s in this thread) is a totally different question.

 

[bobholly39]

I appreciate the honesty from a Pens fan, I just think its silly to suggest that Crosby somehow was so great that he alone was the reason for a 15 year regular season dynasty so to speak.

Nobody is saying "he alone" is the reason. Or at least - I certainly am not.

The one talking in absolutes is you. Crosby gets 0 credit for team success as per your posts. Which is as dumb a take as cup counting.

As his team's best player, he should get some credit for his team's successes over his career. How much is debatable.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Where is the sense in the fantasy world of HF, especially this thread?
If having Kunitz on my club meant four Cups then for sure I’d want him. Henry Richard won a couple hands full of Cups. Sure, in the fantasy world his Cups, but on the club I cheer for, would be great!
Asking which player between McDavid and Crosby (as opposed to what’s in this thread) is a totally different question.

You interpreted the question totally differently than I did and upon reading it again I think you are answering correctly.

 

[Video Nasty]

Pretty sad that the guy with 10 more seasons to draw from is losing.

I guess that’s what happens when the back half of a career has just a lone Rocket and some of the weakest Conn Smythe wins in history.

The sensible ones saw through the illusion once a true generational talent appeared on the scene.

McDavid’s resume will have the Cup and Conn Smythe within two seasons and then just like after 2020-2021, we can listen to the desperate cries that it was a fluke until he does it again.

When we’re comparing the complete body of work for both players 12-15 years from now, Crosby is going to be laughably behind.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Nobody is saying "he alone" is the reason. Or at least - I certainly am not.

The one talking in absolutes is you. Crosby gets 0 credit for team success as per your posts. Which is as dumb a take as cup counting.

As his team's best player, he should get some credit for his team's successes over his career. How much is debatable.

You may be interpreting it as absolutes but I'm not speaking in absolutes, nor am I trying to discredit Crosby.

My point is, Crosby had many opportunities to win a cup with the backing of a very strong regular season team, McDavid has only had 2, maybe 3 to date. Its not fair or accurate to use the proven winner or stanley cup argument to establish which player is better, because, as you know, it takes more than one player to win a cup, or to even have regular season success.

 

[Regal]

I think they’re pretty close in terms of talents. McDavid is certainly having a better individual career at the same age at this point, but I think Crosby could have done something similar with better health. His injuries weren’t the Forsberg or Lindros variety either where you’re likely going to see them play out regardless of how many times you play their careers over again, and McDavid also had two major injuries, one of which just didn’t result in missed time due to when it occurred. Still, it’s hard to go against the player who has actually done it.

As for winning, I don’t think McDavid should be punished for his GMs putting poor teams around him. I think he also seems incredibly dedicated and driven so I’m not sure if Crosby has any discernible additional impact on the players around him in terms of either leadership or making players better.

That said, it is interesting that the Pens were regularly able to find decent depth players, and the team was able roll on most despite injuries to their top stars. While I think management seemed to do a good job of having Wilkes-Barre players in a similar system ready to plug and play, I think the biggest advantage Crosby might have in terms of helping his team outside of individual play is that his style seems better suited to a winning system that can be implemented up and down the lineup. McDavid’s at his best when he can go North-south at any opportunity, and in general he tilts the ice as well or better than Crosby from it. But it’s not a style that can be replicated throughout a lineup by lesser players and so you end up in a bit of situation where the team is playing differently depending on who is out there. Is it enough to take Crosby despite the difference in health and individual accolades so far? I’m honestly not too sure.

 

[Xspyrit]

So far, it's a shame that McDavid has not won anything. This is not basketball where Elite players do it all by themselves. In the NHL, you need to have a contender WITHOUT your best player, then you add him and win. Penguins have been good without Crosby OR Malkin in the past... Oilers are not a playoffs team without McDavid.

Crosby. More complete, way better 2-way.

His accolades would've been insane without all the injuries. And he competed with a prime Ovechkin who is often considered the greatest goalscorer of all time. He (Ovi) will surpass Gretzky.

I'd say that Crosby had more injuries anf tougher competition. And scoring is up more these days.

Now yes. But it hasn't always been the case (see below). There's many reasons as to why the Penguins were successful, one being Letang, another being Malkin, another being Matt Murray winning 2 cups by the end of his rookie season... overall the Pens were better built and their hockey systems were much more efficient

 

[LuGBuG]

If I want to win a regular season trophy I take prime McDavid. If I’m headed into the playoffs I take Prime Crosby.

 

[Regal]

Pretty sad that the guy with 10 more seasons to draw from is losing.

I guess that’s what happens when the back half of a career has just a lone Rocket and some of the weakest Conn Smythe wins in history.

The sensible ones saw through the illusion once a true generational talent appeared on the scene.

McDavid’s resume will have the Cup and Conn Smythe within two seasons and then just like after 2020-2021, we can listen to the desperate cries that it was a fluke until he does it again.

When we’re comparing the complete body of work for both players 12-15 years from now, Crosby is going to be laughably behind.

This isn’t asking about their eventual body of work that has/will happen though. This is a redo on their careers. There is obviously the potential for things to happen differently

 

[Midnight Judges]

Where is the sense in the fantasy world of HF, especially this thread?
If having Kunitz on my club meant four Cups then for sure I’d want him. Henry Richard won a couple hands full of Cups. Sure, in the fantasy world his Cups, but on the club I cheer for, would be great!
Asking which player between McDavid and Crosby (as opposed to what’s in this thread) is a totally different question.

Yeah your hypothetical fit out contradicts itself.

If you assume every team Crosby is on wins three cups, then you have to assume that for everyone else.

So now Malkin's new assumed team wins three cups too? And Letang? How many cups exist in this new assumed world?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Pretty sad that the guy with 10 more seasons to draw from is losing.

I guess that’s what happens when the back half of a career has just a lone Rocket and some of the weakest Conn Smythe wins in history.

The sensible ones saw through the illusion once a true generational talent appeared on the scene.

McDavid’s resume will have the Cup and Conn Smythe within two seasons and then just like after 2020-2021, we can listen to the desperate cries that it was a fluke until he does it again.

When we’re comparing the complete body of work for both players 12-15 years from now, Crosby is going to be laughably behind.

Ten more years doesn't really matter much here. For all players nearly all of their hardware is won before age 30. Realistically McDavid only has 3-4 years of winning hardware before decline hits.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

Yes McDavid is better offensively but Crosby is light years ahead of him defensively

There’s a reason Crosby has 3 cups

 

[Fatass]

Yeah your hypothetical fit out contradicts itself.

If you assume every team Crosby is on wins three cups, then you have to assume that for everyone else.

So now Malkin's new assumed team wins three cups too? And Letang? How many cups exist in this new assumed world?

It’s a fantasy. But this op’s particular fantasy is about just Crosby and McDavid.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Crosby.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It’s a fantasy. But this op’s particular fantasy is about just Crosby and McDavid.

Right but your fantasy doesn't even comport with itself.

Starting a team with McDavid vs starting a team with Crosby at least has the possibility of being a realistic hypothetical. "Knowing what we know now" need not include assumptions that are utterly incompatible with themselves - as you have injected.

Yes McDavid is better offensively but Crosby is light years ahead of him defensively

Is he? As evidenced by what exactly?

McDavid does more penalty killing and more defensive zone draws.