Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[surixon]

Crosbys teams finished top 5 in the league 7 times and top 10 fourteen times. Made the playoffs 16 times.

McDavids teams have made the playoffs 5 times and finished top 10 twice, top 5 never.

Crosby had better teams. Its not close.

Or Crosby elevated his teams to better finishes.

The notion that McDavid hasn't had talent around him is getting ridiculous. He's played with more offensive talent the last number of years then Crosby has ever had up front on his team's.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby three Cups. McDavid no Cups. I’d rather have drafted Crosby onto my team and have three Cups than McDavid and still have no Cups.
I don’t really get your comments.

My point is this: 1 player does not win a cup. Teams win cups. If you switch McDavid and Crosby, the team outcomes are very likely the same.

 

[Machinehead]

Crosbys teams finished top 5 in the league 7 times and top 10 fourteen times. Made the playoffs 16 times.

McDavids teams have made the playoffs 5 times and finished top 10 twice, top 5 never.

Crosby had better teams. Its not close.

"But their records were good" is not what I'm talking about. Of course they won some games. They Crosby and Malkin in their primes.

They didn't have the depth to get through series. If you contained those guys to a PPG, nobody else was doing damage.

Those rosters were also way too slow and got beat by some fast teams. That's why they focused so much on speed when they revamped in 2016.

 

[The90]

Pittsburgh Penguins overall regular season standings

05-06 - 29th - DNQ
06-07 - 10th - Lost in first round
07-08 - 4th - Lost in cup final
08-09 - 8th - won cup
09-10 - 8th - lost in second round
10-11 - 4th - lost in first round
11-12 - 4th - lost in first round
12-13 - 2nd - lost in ECF
13-14 - 6th - lost in second round
14-15 - 15th - lost in first round
15-16 - 4th - won cup
16-17 - 2nd - won cup
17-18 - 10th - lost in second round
18-19 - 9th - lost in first round
19-20 - 7th - lost in first round
20-21 - 5th - lost in first round
21-22 - 12th - lost in first round
22-23 - 19th - DNQ

Vs Oilers
15-16 - 29th - DNQ
16-17 - 8th - lost in second round
17-18 - 23rd - DNQ
18-19 - 25th - DNQ
19-20 - 12th - lost in first round
20-21 - 11th - lost in first round
21-22 - 11th - lost in third round
22-23 - 6th - lost in second round

Generally a team that finishes top 10 in the league is considered a cup contender. Since 05-06, only the 2012 kings (13), and the 19 blues (13) have won without finishing inside the top 10. Never has Crosby led a team outside the top 10 to even a series win.

By my count, Crosbys teams have finished top 10 - *fourteen* - times in his career, and top 5 *seven* times, while Mcdavid has had only 2 top ten and zero top 5 finishes.

The further these thought exercises get into McDavids career, the sillier they become and the sillier they will look in hindsight.

Don’t take it too personally. Many feel that Crosby was robbed of years of his prime in a lower scoring era and still has all the hardware including 3 cups. If I were looking for the wow factor a few times a game, 150 points and a conference finals appearance or two I’m taking McDavid. If I want to win multiple cups, I want Crosby leading the charge. Give me the grind in our 2 way superstar over the flash.

That being said, I hope McDavid does eventually win a cup. The real BS in all this is we never got to see prime McDavid, Crosby and Mackinnon work a powerplay with a maple leaf on their chest.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I still take Crosby because I think he's a bit more era proof. This era is tailor made for McDavid, but I think Crosby would be better in a low scoring grindy era.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Or Crosby elevated his teams to better finishes.

sounds magical.

He was injured enough, I'm sure we could see the teams record with and without him to prove this theory as complete BS.

 

[Midnight Judges]

That was Malkin's Hart season. Look at the roster besides Malkin and Crosby. It's not that impressive.

From the Crosby draft up until 2016, the Pens were going to the New York Rangers University of "we have enough stars, let's surround them with 8 grinders and 4 or 5 immobile defensemen."

It's worked for the Rangers once since FDR was president.

The second the Pens got a bunch of speed and skill on all three lines, they won multiple Cups.

Excluding Malkin is not real though. Malkin is in fact on Crosby's team. Like, he's part of the equation.

Regardless, the Pens without Crosby have ranged from above average to excellent - as was the case in 2019 when they had a .714 winning percentage without Sid - mere Months after the Canadian hockey media claimed Crosby was carrying the entire team while also claiming Crosby was so good at defense that he should win a Selke except the Pen's goals against per game played went down without Sid in the line-up.

 

[Frank Drebin]

"But their records were good" is not what I'm talking about. Of course they won some games. They Crosby and Malkin in their primes.

They didn't have the depth to get through series. If you contained those guys to a PPG, nobody else was doing damage.

Those rosters were also way too slow and got beat by some fast teams. That's why they focused so much on speed when they revamped in 2016.

So you need a good team to win a cup. We agree on that.

 

[Fatass]

My point is this: 1 player does not win a cup. Teams win cups. If you switch McDavid and Crosby, the team outcomes are very likely the same.

I see. We are reading the OP’s thread title different. I’m seeing which one would you want to draft? And for me it’s Crosby because then my club would have three Cups during his time.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I see. We are reading the OP’s thread title different. I’m seeing which one would you want to draft? And for me it’s Crosby because then my club would have three Cups during his time.

I think you're mistaken the question for :

Which team would you rather cheer for:

06-20 penguins
or
16-23 oilers

 

[Machinehead]

Excluding Malkin is not real though. Malkin is in fact on Crosby's team. Like, he's part of the equation.

Regardless, the Pens without Crosby have ranged from above average to excellent - as was the case in 2019 when they had a .714 winning percentage without Sid - mere Months after the Canadian hockey media claimed Crosby was carrying the entire team.

Nobody is excluding Malkin. I'm saying Crosby and Malkin wasn't enough, just like McDavid and Draisaitl isn't enough. They weren't good enough to win the Cup. They weren't any better than the last couple of Oilers teams.

 

[Machinehead]

So you need a good team to win a cup. We agree on that.

Yes, and that Crosby went basically his entire peak without winning one wasn't an accident.

 

[Fatass]

I think you're mistaken the question for :

Which team would you rather cheer for:

06-20 penguins
or
16-23 oilers

I’m seeing which of the two players would you prefer to have drafted into your club. I’m not a fan of either the Pens or the Oilers. Kind of hate them both tbh.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Yes, and that Crosby went basically his entire peak without winning one wasn't an accident.

And you can honestly say mcdavid hasn't really played with a cup contending team to date, yes?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Nobody is excluding Malkin. I'm saying Crosby and Malkin wasn't enough, just like McDavid and Draisaitl isn't enough. They weren't good enough to win the Cup. They weren't any better than the last couple of Oilers teams.

2010-15 Pittsburgh was still an elite team though. Bad coaching, Fleury, and some depth issues were the culprit. But still during that time period they were #1 in the NHL in points.

 

[Machinehead]

And you can honestly say mcdavid hasn't really played with a cup contending team to date, yes?

I would say they're probably not good enough, yes.

They're a good team with clear flaws that probably prevents them from winning.

I think it's a very similar situation to the one Crosby was in. The Pens coming out of a very weak East in 2008 and 2009 really changed the perception of how easy Crosby had it.

If the best team the Oilers had to compete with was the 2009 Bruins, they're probably in a couple of Finals by now as well.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I see. We are reading the OP’s thread title different. I’m seeing which one would you want to draft? And for me it’s Crosby because then my club would have three Cups during his time.

Yeah, but that's fantasy. Having Crosby - or any other 1 player in the history of hockey - doesn't guarantee 3 cups.

Does Beliveau guarantee 10 cups or whatever he had?

 

[A1LeafNation]

McDavid is the better playmaker, better skater, but Crosby is the better two way player and captain and proven winner.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Or Crosby elevated his teams to better finishes.

The notion that McDavid hasn't had talent around him is getting ridiculous. He's played with more offensive talent the last number of years then Crosby has ever had up front on his team's.

I do think there should be no more complaining about McDavid's forward help. Their top 6 is stacked. But their defense is still not as good as the pens has been. For example pens were running Letang-Orpik, P. Martin- Z.Michalek, and Goligoski-Engellend in the early 2010s, which is way better than what Edmonton has had.

 

[bobholly39]

Talk about tunnel vision....some pretty bad takes here.

Crosbys teams finished top 5 in the league 7 times and top 10 fourteen times. Made the playoffs 16 times.

McDavids teams have made the playoffs 5 times and finished top 10 twice, top 5 never.

Crosby had better teams. Its not close.

Crosby has been his team's best player almost every year, or at worst 2nd best a cpl of times. Shouldn't a lot of his team's success be attributable to him?

To completely ignore that - as you are - is absolutely ridiculous.

I see. We are reading the OP’s thread title different. I’m seeing which one would you want to draft? And for me it’s Crosby because then my club would have three Cups during his time.

Are you a Pittsburgh fan? If so - and if you're assuming the redraft takes place in 2005 - I agree with you 100%. Your team would indeed have 3 cups.

Considering the premise here is more of a re-draft in 2023 - regardless of if you are a Pens fan or not - drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee you 3 cups. Maybe you win 10 cups. Maybe 0. Or maybe Crosby gets a career ending injury on game 1 of his career.

You can argue you think Crosby is better at helping teams win a cup if you want, but talking in terms of absolutes and 3 guaranteed cups is complete fantasy.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Nobody is excluding Malkin. I'm saying Crosby and Malkin wasn't enough, just like McDavid and Draisaitl isn't enough. They weren't good enough to win the Cup. They weren't any better than the last couple of Oilers teams.

I think the Pens may have had better defenseman and goal tending.

Niskanen and Orpik were quite good. You can win with those guys. The Caps did. Letang is likely a hall of famer. Is that not a better top 3 defensemen than the Oilers have had in the McDavid era?

Same goes for MAF - likely hall of famer. Have the Oilers had a goalie of that caliber?

 

[Fatass]

Yeah, but that's fantasy. Having Crosby - or any other 1 player - doesn't guarantee 3 cups.

And that’s what this entire board is pretty much - fantasy.
So in the fantasy world of HF I’d rather have Crosby leading my club to three Cups than McDavid not leading my club to any.

 

[Fatass]

Talk about tunnel vision....some pretty bad takes here.



Crosby has been his team's best player almost every year, or at worst 2nd best a cpl of times. Shouldn't a lot of his team's success be attributable to him?

To completely ignore that - as you are - is absolutely ridiculous.


Are you a Pittsburgh fan? If so - and if you're assuming the redraft takes place in 2005 - I agree with you 100%. Your team would indeed have 3 cups.

Considering the premise here is more of a re-draft in 2023 - regardless of if you are a Pens fan or not - drafting Crosby doesn't guarantee you 3 cups. Maybe you win 10 cups. Maybe 0. Or maybe Crosby gets a career ending injury on game 1 of his career.

You can argue you think Crosby is better at helping teams win a cup if you want, but talking in terms of absolutes and 3 guaranteed cups is complete fantasy.

“Knowing now what we do about these two players” which one would you draft. I kind of hate both those teams. But one player, Crosby, led his club to three Cups. I want him on my team from his draft year and the three Cups.
That’s how I’m interpreting the thread.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And that’s what this entire board is pretty much - fantasy.
So in the fantasy world of HF I’d rather have Crosby leading my club to three Cups than McDavid not leading my club to any.

Well no. Placing Crosby on a different team doesn't automatically result in three cups though. If Crosby was on the Coyotes from 2005-2023, he's almost certainly has zero cups.

You are assuming the outcome, which is a logical fallacy.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Crosby has been his team's best player almost every year, or at worst 2nd best a cpl of times. Shouldn't a lot of his team's success be attributable to him?

To completely ignore that - as you are - is absolutely ridiculous.

As has been mentioned before, Crosby has been injured enough to see his teams record with and without him in the lineup, so the whole theory of him elevating his teams to greatness can be either be proven by numbers or thrown in the trash as garbage. Its not my theory so I'm not looking it up, but you're welcome to prove to me its not garbage if you like.