Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[DearDiary]

A lot of this board just spent that past 15 years jumping through all kinds of hoops to anoint Crosby the greatest player ever by giving a huge amount of credit to the "modern game", coulda shoulda wouldas about injuries, on pace and PPG argument blah blah blah.

It is going to take some time for them to realize, as good as Crosby was/is, there were better players before him and after him. Not to take him down too much or anything because he's a slam dunk first ballot hall of famer and all that.. but McDavid is on a different level.

McDavid is great, but even in this so called historic scoring season; he only outscored a near retirement Crosby by 4 points at 5on5. McDavid was 5th overall in the league, Draisaitl all the way down at 18th. Would it be crazy to say that a peak Crosby with peak Malkin for 50% of shifts would have beat 35 year old Crosby and McDavid as well?

 

[bobholly39]

What years are you certain he wins the Art Ross where he didn't? Just curious

He has 2 already. With no major injuries this is how I look at it:

99.9% (not to say 100) wins Ross in 2011 and 2013. In 2011 he was so clearly the best player, and it was a rather weak year for forwards anyways. With 2013, with only 12 games left he also was so clearly ahead. I don't think I really need to justify those, so that's 4 total.

~75-80% likely wins the Ross in 2012. Malkin had an all-time great season, so I don't mean to undermine it by giving Crosby such high likelihood, but the reason why it's so high is because Crosby was simply better than Malkin in that stretch of years. Clearly better the 2 seasons prior and the 2 after, and more productive on a per game basis in the games he played in 2012. Also as #1C, he probably takes some minutes away from Malkin anyways.

~50% he wins in 2008. I think Ovechkin was definitely winning the hart that year with a strong 2nd half, but without Crosby's mid-season injury, I think it's ~50/50 who wins the Ross between Ovechkin and Crosby. Crosby had a much stronger first half vs 2nd half of season in 2007, but then had a stronger 2nd half in 2009 and much stronger half in 2010. So - a bit of a guessing game how he'd have done in 2nd half of 2008.

That leaves Sidney Crosby with almost surely 5 Rosses total, and possibly 6.

Some people also like to look at 2015. And it's probably accurate. Crosby got the mumps and missed 5 games - and lost the Ross on the last day of season. If he played all 82 games, he almost surely wins the Ross. I personally think he should have won anyways, even in 77 games - and 5 games missed doesn't represent a major injury. So I don't usually like to consider this one. But if you do consider it - that gets you anywhere from 5 (almost for sure) to 7 (at most) Art Rosses in his career, if he hadn't had any major injuries.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Ha! Now Crosby is "physically dominant" and "physically imposing" lol.

Holy cow people will say anything.

I mean he was the strongest player in the league from the waste down and was a beast around the net. In his prime he could absolutely impose his will on the opponent using his power.

And he could actually protect himself a bit.

 

[Fatass]

Still drafting Crosby. We know now he Leads his club to three Cups. McDavid (what we know now) has led his team to zero Cups. Based on what we know now I want Crosby and his three Cups on my club.
Almost every club, at some point, has had an electrifying offensive talent. No Cup teams like Buffalo and Vancouver have had Perrault and Bure. But neither club has a Cup. Crosby and his three Cups would (almost for certain) be welcomed more by those two fan bases than McDavid’s electric offence.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I mean he was the strongest player in the league from the waste down

Uh, no.

Zero chance below average-sized Crosby had stronger legs than 260 pound Chara or 240 pound Ovechkin, let alone about 150 other players.

Crosby has always been a finesse player. He's got great hands and vision. Calling him physically imposing is absurd.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Uh, no.

Zero chance below average-sized Crosby had stronger legs than 260 pound Chara or 240 pound Ovechkin, let alone about 150 other players.

Again, people will say anything without evidence apparently.

Why is that so hard to believe lol?

Being tall or heavy doesn't make a guys legs stronger.

There's a reason why he was the hardest guy to knock off the puck.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Why is that so hard to believe lol?

Being tall or heavy doesn't make a guys legs stronger.

Uh, yes, being heavier absolutely does increase leg strength. If your legs are carrying around 20% more weight all the time then they are basically getting 20% more weight training all the time. Nevermind the genetics of a larger frame body.

Sid is indeed hard to knock off the puck but that's because he's quick, smart, and has good balance and good hands. He isn't counter checking or using brute force as a primary method.

Calling him physically imposing or physically dominant is raging history revision. Or present revision lol. Lying for Crosby is a national past time. I could post hours long videos of certain players crushing other players. Sid isn't in that class. Claiming he is is ridiculous.

 

[bobholly39]

Uh, no.

Zero chance below average-sized Crosby had stronger legs than 260 pound Chara or 240 pound Ovechkin, let alone about 150 other players.

Crosby has always been a finesse player. He's got great hands and vision. Calling him physically imposing is absurd.

Who do you rank the 7th greatest player of all-time?

Seeing the amount of criticism you throw at Crosby despite supposedly ranking him 6th all-time - I'd love to hear your thoughts on how bad the next guy in line is.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Who do you rank the 7th greatest player of all-time?

Seeing the amount of criticism you throw at Crosby despite supposedly ranking him 6th all-time - I'd love to hear your thoughts on how bad the next guy in line is.

That's not criticism, it's correcting falsehoods.

It's as if you Crosby fans deep down don't think the real Crosby is good enough. There really is no need to make stuff up. You could just emphasize his actual accomplishments and characteristics - which are both generationally outstanding. It'd be a stronger case.

 

[centipede2233]

Mcdavid is a better offensive player.Crosby has elements to his game mcdavid doesn’t have. Crosby is an excellent checker with his leg strength and core strength. He’s also a winner. He just wins. It’s all he has ever done.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Uh, yes, being heavier absolutely does increase leg strength. If your legs are carrying around 20% more weight all the time then they are basically getting 20% more weight training all the time. Nevermind the genetics of a larger frame body.

Sid is indeed hard to knock off the puck but that's because he's quick, smart, and has good balance and good hands. He isn't counter checking as a primary method.

Yeah defenders were bouncing off of Crosby in the corners because he was so smart.

Calling him physically imposing or physically dominant is raging history revision. Or present revision lol. Lying for Crosby is a national past time. I could post hours long videos of certain players crushing other players. Sid isn't in that class. Claiming he is is ridiculous.

You don't have to be running over defenders to impose yourself physically. The power in his game is obvious to anyone who watched him play, especially through his prime.

 

[GMofOilers]

Can’t wait to see this poll next summer after Mcdavid gets 70g 100a, wins the cup, conn smythe, and all the other awards at the age of 27. It wont be very close at all.

 

[bobholly39]

Can’t wait to see this poll next summer after Mcdavid gets 70g 100a, wins the cup, conn smythe, and all the other awards at the age of 27. It wont be very close at all.

You better figure out a way. You might be waiting for a while.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah defenders were bouncing off of Crosby in the corners because he was so smart.

Defenders aren't bouncing off of Crosby period.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It is outstanding how often Crosby fans make claims that are obviously false or completely unknowable.

"Crosby works harder at training than anyone else!"

"Crosby has the strongest legs in the NHL!"

"Crosby is the best leader in the NHL!"

"Players around Crosby try harder than they would for McDavid!"

^^^There is no way to track who is training the hardest. It could be some guy from the ECHL for all we know. The NHL doesn't hold a leg press competition. You aren't in the locker room.

Yet these claims that you can't possibly know or verify are constantly - CONSTANTLY - made for Sidney Crosby.

Thing is, these are weak claims being made about a player for whom MANY strong claims can legitimately be made.

 

[daver]

You take McDavid is you want to try a run and gun strategy, you take Crosby to have options for other strategies.

 

[Ararana]

Do you want a lot of Hart trophies or a lot of Stanley cups?

Crosby every time for me.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

It is outstanding how often Crosby fans make claims that are obviously false or completely unknowable.

"Crosby works harder at training than anyone else!"

"Crosby has the strongest legs in the NHL!"

"Crosby is the best leader in the NHL!"

"Players around Crosby try harder than they would for McDavid!"

^^^There is no way to track who is training the hardest. It could be some guy from the ECHL for all we know. The NHL doesn't hold a leg press competition. You aren't in the locker room.

Yet these claims that you can't possibly know or verify are constantly - CONSTANTLY - made for Sidney Crosby.

Thing is, these are weak claims being made about a player for whom MANY strong claims can legitimately be made.

You’ll get Crosby next time MJ, we have faith in you.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Not to be disrespectful to Sid. But I'm shocked McDavid isn't winning 90%-10%

Its because *Knowing what we know now* Crosby won 3 cups.....I think McDavid is better but its hard not to take 3 cups.

I voted for Crosby personally but I also think the oilers have had a totally dog water team since McDavid has been there compared to sid.

Its a pretty good poll

 

[Suntouchable13]

Its because *Knowing what we know now* Crosby won 3 cups.....I think McDavid is better but its hard not to take 3 cups.

I voted for Crosby personally but I also think the oilers have had a totally dog water team since McDavid has been there compared to sid.

Its a pretty good poll

Wait a second there, professor. McDavid is the better scorer, but is he the better hockey player? I don’t think so. I think there is a distinction.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Wait a second there, professor. McDavid is the better scorer, but is he the better hockey player? I don’t think so. I think there is a distinction.

Right but Crosby had some much better teams , and that's why its a good poll, I mean the other guy says he's suprised its not 90-10% mcdavid and here you are saying its clearly Crosby so there's certainly a discussion to be had on the matter

 

[Skolman]

Why is that so hard to believe lol?

Being tall or heavy doesn't make a guys legs stronger.

There's a reason why he was the hardest guy to knock off the puck.

You've clearly never heard of how Chara was talked about when it came to fitness, dude is an absolute machine.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You've clearly never heard of how Chara was talked about when it came to fitness, dude is an absolute machine.

You've clearly got problems with reading comprehension because I never once said anything to the contrary.

 

[Skolman]

You've clearly got problems with reading comprehension because I never once said anything to the contrary.

"Being tall or heavy doesn't make your legs stronger"

My interpretation of that is you believe the poster you responded to just assumed Chara is strong because he's tall

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

"Being tall or heavy doesn't make your legs stronger"

My interpretation of that is you believe the poster you responded to just assumed Chara is strong because he's tall

Ok, and you're interpretation of that is wrong.