Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[BehindTheTimes]

No, but Kane was objectively wrong about the numbers and therefore, any play with fourth liners must have been minimal, unless by fourth liners he meant people who play first or second line minutes.

You added your own spin to what Kane said. He was talking about him bouncing around the lineup.

 

[BaseballCoach]

You added your own spin to what Kane said. He was talking about him bouncing around the lineup.

We're both right as to what he said. From the Sportsnet article quoting Patrick Kane,

"I'm not surprised. What is he 21? 22? It takes some time sometimes, and he was probably rushed into the league," the three-time Stanley Cup champion told reporters. "Playing fourth-line minutes, getting sat out games, it's probably not the best thing for your development."

Those fourth line minutes must have been pretty rare in his rookie year, when he played every game of the playoffs, averaged 17 minutes, scored 6 points in 9 games with a +3 and was universally praised. No one said "rushed into the league" at that point.

Then they loaned him to TCJ when the 2020-21 season start was delayed, and he got hurt. He did get bounced around the lineup after he came back, but still got 18:03 minutes per game last year. He clearly learned from the experience, and a new positive approach in Montreal benefits him.

 

[SlafySZN]

We're both right as to what he said. From the Sportsnet article quoting Patrick Kane,

"I'm not surprised. What is he 21? 22? It takes some time sometimes, and he was probably rushed into the league," the three-time Stanley Cup champion told reporters. "Playing fourth-line minutes, getting sat out games, it's probably not the best thing for your development."

Those fourth line minutes must have been pretty rare in his rookie year, when he played every game of the playoffs, averaged 17 minutes, scored 6 points in 9 games with a +3 and was universally praised. No one said "rushed into the league" at that point.

Then they loaned him to TCJ when the 2020-21 season start was delayed, and he got hurt. He did get bounced around the lineup after he came back, but still got 18:03 minutes per game last year. He clearly learned from the experience, and a new positive approach in Montreal benefits him.

It wasn’t rare, he was playing between 8 and 13 minutes for most of his rookie year even when on paper in the lineup he was on the 2nd line, like @BehindTheTimes said he was benched during games but yes they gave him more minutes in the playoffs.

But anyway it’s not so important anymore

 

[junyab]

I had Dach's linemates posted in the Slaf thread already so here it is again:

​

Rookie Year​

Frequency	Strength	Line
15.93%	EV	KIRBY DACH - ALEX DEBRINCAT - DYLAN STROME
9.04%	EV	RYAN CARPENTER - KIRBY DACH - ZACK SMITH
8.39%	EV	KIRBY DACH - ALEX DEBRINCAT - DAVID KAMPF
7.75%	EV	KIRBY DACH - ALEX DEBRINCAT - PATRICK KANE
6.44%	EV	KIRBY DACH - PATRICK KANE - BRANDON SAAD
5.52%	EV	RYAN CARPENTER - KIRBY DACH - ALEX DEBRINCAT
5.26%	EV	DRAKE CAGGIULA - KIRBY DACH - ALEX DEBRINCAT
4.00%	PP	KIRBY DACH - ALEX DEBRINCAT - PATRICK KANE - JONATHAN TOEWS
3.14%	EV	KIRBY DACH - BRANDON SAAD - ANDREW SHAW
2.49%	EV	KIRBY DACH - PATRICK KANE - DYLAN STROME

Last Year In Chicago​

Num	Time	%	Players
1	162:00	12.8	PATRICK KANE - ALEX DEBRINCAT - KIRBY DACH
2	105:55	8.4	PHILIPP KURASHEV - KIRBY DACH - DOMINIK KUBALIK
3	50:09	4.0	PHILIPP KURASHEV - MACKENZIE ENTWISTLE - KIRBY DACH
4	45:03	3.6	DYLAN STROME - ALEX DEBRINCAT - KIRBY DACH
5	42:35	3.4	JONATHAN TOEWS - KIRBY DACH - BRANDON HAGEL
6	40:51	3.2	ALEX DEBRINCAT - KIRBY DACH - BRANDON HAGEL
7	38:14	3.0	PATRICK KANE - KIRBY DACH - DOMINIK KUBALIK
8	38:04	3.0	ALEX DEBRINCAT - PHILIPP KURASHEV - KIRBY DACH
9	38:00	3.0	PATRICK KANE - KIRBY DACH - BRANDON HAGEL
10	37:53	3.0	PHILIPP KURASHEV - SAM LAFFERTY - KIRBY DACH

The fourth line story is just a bogus narrative. But let's believe Kane instead of facts.

And bouncing around lines and getting sat - c'mon, this is so common for any non-superstar rookie/young player that its not even worth arguing.

 

[junyab]

It wasn’t rare, he was playing between 8 and 13 minutes for most of his rookie year even when on paper on the lineup he was on the 2nd line, like @BehindTheTimes said he was benched during games but yes they gave him more minutes in the playoffs.

But anyway it’s not so important anymore

In his rookie season, Dach averaged 14:16 TOI/GP and that ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards. He played a total of 64 games, which was also ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards.

 

[BaseballCoach]

In his rookie season, Dach averaged 14:16 TOI/GP and that ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards. He played a total of 64 games, which was also ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards.

The COVID-shortened season was 70 games, so 64 is very respectable. Not sure the 6 missing were all healthy scratches.

What a few people here don't get is that Dach was not rushed, Dach did well until hurt, and even after hurt, he kept learning in the NHL which is perfefctly normal. Most players progres even up to their D+6.

The Hawks management is not good, communication was clearly deficient and the team decided to move a 21, a 23 and a 24 year old - each with tlent - in order to rebuild. Insane.

 

[Mrb1p]

In his rookie season, Dach averaged 14:16 TOI/GP and that ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards. He played a total of 64 games, which was also ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards.

In his first 35 games he was averaging under 13 minutes a game, which was good for last amongst NHL regulars for the BH. When Saad and Strome got injured he got more playing time at the end of the year.

 

[SlafySZN]

In his rookie season, Dach averaged 14:16 TOI/GP and that ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards. He played a total of 64 games, which was also ranked 8th of all Hawks forwards.

Where did i say he didn’t play with better players or that he had no icetime? I never said that.

My whole point with chicago mismanaging him wasn’t that he didn’t get icetime or good players to play with, it was him being up and down the lineup, different linemates every game, from center to wing. Him having more minutes with Kane and Debrincat and got to play with them here and there during the year doesn’t change anything if it’s not consecutive.

 

[1909]

Where did i say he didn’t play with better players or that he had no icetime? I never said that.

My whole point with chicago mismanaging him wasn’t that he didn’t get icetime or good players to play with, it was him being up and down the lineup, different linemates every game, from center to wing. Him having more minutes with Kane and Debrincat and got to play with them here and there during the year doesn’t change anything if it’s not consecutive.

Like too many young players, he was brought to the NHL way too early. Perfect recipe for catastrophy. Especially when these kids have to play on weaker teams like Chicago or MTL.

 

[Rob Sense]

Bringing this back to the front. WTF? is everyone injured? Who would have thought that tanking is bad for your health! So much for developing youth...is the press box the best place to learn. Do the Habs get a prize for using up the most medical resources in the world??? FFS!

 

[brakeyawself]

Like too many young players, he was brought to the NHL way too early. Perfect recipe for catastrophy. Especially when these kids have to play on weaker teams like Chicago or MTL.

That's the extent of it. As a Ranger fan, Laf, Kakko, Chytil...... I know about this all too well. It's a great way to ruin a players confidence, momentum and trajectory in their development and THAT is everything, because it constitutes real time mismanagement in the crucial stages of development. Developing later, without momentum and more life responsibility, just makes things more difficult on the individual. This is something not often spoken about.

See, people act like being on the pro team is the equivalent of living hockey, but it's not. Being in Jrs, being on a college team, in the AHL is living hockey. When you are in the NHL, sure, you practice and you play NHL games, with pros and vets, who all have lives of their own off the ice and things going on. They aren't a bunch of 18 year olds who are going to sit around and talk hockey with you all day while you travel together, work together, live together. The vets in the NHL, not that there isn't comradery, of course there is, but it's of a different sort. And I'm sure the kids get great spoken advice and 10 to 20 minutes maybe at practice, working with that vet on something. Which isn't the same as spending 8 hours with a peer, who's also trying to learn and figure this hockey thing out. Experimenting and so on.

I suppose it's the difference between being at university or having to learn on the job. Some jobs are easier to learn on than others. Not that hockey is the equivalent of being a doctor, but perhaps it can be more closely compared to being an artist or musician. Artist and musicians who in those early stages, live and commune and commute and do everything, generally speaking, with peers who are doing the same things. It's part of why Doctors go to uni and then Med school, engineers, lawyers. And sure, they get exposure during those years. Work a semester here, then a semester there. But they aren't thrust into the real time situation. And the entire learning process is done with their peers.

Now some individuals are ready and can handle it, but those individualists let's say, are a minority, not the mojority. And then there are the savants who are just so good it kind of doesn't matter how young they are, Crosby, McDavid etc... But that's a different beast all together. And sometimes even their development is thrown off, Lafreniere perhaps, all though I never thought the claims of him being "generational" were anything more than hyperbole. But either way, thrusting a personality that isn't ready, taking them out of the development process that got them where they are today, only works with a minority selection of individuals. And we see this problem all throughout sports, which demand production relatively immediately. Again, not to the extent of being a dr. But it's why we don't take a guy who just finished his organic bio degree before med school, hand them a scalpel and say, go for it.

 

[SlafySZN]

Miss Kirby.

Hope he comes back soon

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Sucks that he's hurt now. Would've loved to see Gurianov get a shot with Dach to start as his passing would help Gurianov get plenty of chances to use his shot.

 

[Player 61]

Starting to worry about Dach? Seems more Illness related than Injury with first Non Covid Related and now lack of updates? R.

 

[Heffyhoof]

In his first 35 games he was averaging under 13 minutes a game, which was good for last amongst NHL regulars for the BH. When Saad and Strome got injured he got more playing time at the end of the year.

That's the problem when people start arguing about things years back, we forget the nuances like this that happen in a season.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Still not absolutely crazy about Kirby Dach. Although he has been better than I expected. I find him very difficult to be a fan of.

 

[Tanknation]

Another player they Dr.'s allowed play injured and aggravated something. What is going on with this team to allowing our players to continue to get hurt. Especially to jeopardize careers on meangliness games.

 

[DAChampion]

Still not absolutely crazy about Kirby Dach. Although he has been better than I expected. I find him very difficult to be a fan of.

Why?

 

[BaseballCoach]

Like too many young players, he was brought to the NHL way too early. Perfect recipe for catastrophy. Especially when these kids have to play on weaker teams like Chicago or MTL.

Revisionist history.

Dach had a good rookie season, improving constantly, then a GREAT playoffs. 6 points in 9 games with a +3.

He got hurt at the stat of season 2 when loaned to TCJ. Still ended up with over 0.5 ppg when he eventually returned.

Season three was a clusterfucq. 17 minutes per game but bouncing all over the place and team was crashing. Coach fired at year end. You can't say that because the 3rd year was rough, Dach was not deserving of being in the NHL in his first year, because he clearly was.

 

[Fainting Couch]

Starting to worry about Dach? Seems more Illness related than Injury with first Non Covid Related and now lack of updates? R.

Nobody connecting Jonathan Toews and his long Covid yet?
Sorta explains how they find another injury stemming from his illness.

 

[JianYang]

The level of mystery around dach is reminiscent of the old regime.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Why?

I can’t seem to put my finger on it tbh. If I’m being fair, I find the entire team hard to endure. Caufield, Harris, Guhle, Xhekaj are the bright spots for me. There’s something about Kirby that bothers me, the same way pacioretty bothered me even though he scored. I sort of stopped watching once CC was out for the year.

 

[1909]

The level of mystery around dach is reminiscent of the old regime.

Right. When it is an injury we can always accept the upper-lower body answer. They all say it is to protect the player. But when it is a disease, or "personal" problems like Price and Drouin, and others, they should be clear about it. Or when a player like Monahan or Gally doesn't recover properly, we should know.

Revisionist history.

Dach had a good rookie season, improving constantly, then a GREAT playoffs. 6 points in 9 games with a +3.

He got hurt at the stat of season 2 when loaned to TCJ. Still ended up with over 0.5 ppg when he eventually returned.

Season three was a clusterfucq. 17 minutes per game but bouncing all over the place and team was crashing. Coach fired at year end. You can't say that because the 3rd year was rough, Dach was not deserving of being in the NHL in his first year, because he clearly was.

KK had a better season than him in his season one. And nobody said he had a "great" season...

 

[SlafySZN]

I can’t seem to put my finger on it tbh. If I’m being fair, I find the entire team hard to endure. Caufield, Harris, Guhle, Xhekaj are the bright spots for me. There’s something about Kirby that bothers me, the same way pacioretty bothered me even though he scored. I sort of stopped watching once CC was out for the year.

Then you missed Dach’s best games as a center. Was incredible his last 12 games or so before his injury.

 

[SlafySZN]

The level of mystery around dach is reminiscent of the old regime.

He was skating this morning before practice.