Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[An0n]

This place sometimes lol

Just because I don’t subscribe to the “rushed player” theory, it upsets guys like @bcv and @Mrb1p, you’d think I insulted them personally.

Such is life I suppose.

You’re taking being told « you move the goalposts » so bad you’re making up scenarios in your head, I wonder who’s taking this too personally.

Anyway, have fun screaming in the void

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

What about when they don’t “bust”?

Playing in the nhl as a teenager doesn't guarantee a player to bust. What it does is increase the chances of it happening. It's often an unnecessary risk.

There’s more to development then the minutes played during a game.

Some players spend a whole lot of time developing at lower levels but it never translates to the NHL.

That’s because lower levels, is not the NHL, it doesn’t replicate the highest level.

If those players had played in the NHL as teenagers, it wouldn't have made them any better.

Also, there are cases where some players just don't have the necessary skills to be a good NHLer, or have the talent, but aren't given enough of an opportunity.

Agreed.

But being “rushed” is not what happened with Dach here, at least not IMO.

He was good as a rookie, hurt his wrist and then struggled as a result.

The wrist injury made things worse for sure.
I wouldn't consider a player to not be rushed if they have a decent rookie season. A player can have a decent rookie season and still have certain important defiencies that would prevent them from reaching their max potential. And like I said in my previous post, its a lot easier to fix issues/improve skills in a lower league than in the nhl.

 

[417]

You’re taking being told « you move the goalposts » so bad you’re making up scenarios in your head, I wonder who’s taking this too personally.

Yes it’s quite odd when no goalposts were moved lol seems personal more than anything.

But I digress.

Anyway, have fun screaming in the void

You mean responding to people who @ me? Which includes you?

I didn’t @ you, you responded to my post and now I’m screaming in the void?

 

[417]

Playing in the nhl as a teenager doesn't guarantee a player to bust. What it does is increase the chances of it happening. It's often an unnecessary risk.

It’s not for everyone, surely, but expect it to become a lot more commonplace.

If those players had played in the NHL as teenagers, it wouldn't have made them any better.

Also, there are cases where some players just don't have the necessary skills to be a good NHLer, or have the talent, but aren't given enough of an opportunity.

Hence my point that it’s much bigger then just being “rushed “.

The wrist injury made things worse for sure.
I wouldn't consider a player to not be rushed if they have a decent rookie season. A player can have a decent rookie season and still have certain important defiencies that would prevent them from reaching their max potential. And like I said in my previous post, its a lot easier to fix issues/improve skills in a lower league than in the nhl.

Deficiencies in a player are inevitable…there are few players who make it to the NHL and are perfect all around players.

It just doesn’t work that way.

I do agree though that it’s a lot easier to fix issues/improve skills in a lower league then in the NHL…

The only problem is that lower leagues, as previously mentioned, do not replicate the NHL.

 

[Boyon90]

season de fleuraison

 

[Redux91]

If I was forced to keep only one player on this roster I'm keeping Kirby. You can build a team around a 6'4 215 lbs heavily skilled #1C.

Love Kirby for sure,
But Caufield man... I've waited 30 years for this kid.

 

[Frank Drebin]

If playing at such a disadvantage for multiple years had net good outcomes, we would be seeing a whole lot more of it.

Surely being rushed affects the player and how they play and adapt to the pro game.
Surely it is inconceivable to think there are only net neutral and positive outcomes from being rushed to the NHL.
Surely, therefore, there will be players who have a net negative outcome from being rushed.

Not rushing a play may ensure his future success but it can be one way to eliminate a potential source of failure.

Well, I think we don't see a lot of it because most teams have a mandate to win, and having an out of place overmatched teen does not align with that. The red wings of the late 90s didn't season kids for years because it was good practice- they did it because they were so deep that there was no room for the kids even if they were legit nhlers.


Dach and Kotkaniemi were kept in the lineup because they were good enough to be on their respective rostersat 18. Zadina simply did not Crack the red wings lineup.

I do not see these seasons as a potential source of failure, rather than simply a different road that a successful or unsuccessful player takes towards his full potential at his maturation age.

Fundamentally that's where the disagreement is.
Would Kirby dach be a dramatically different player today had he played one more year for the blades and then one in the ahl? I don't think so. Would zadina be any worse today if he was rushed into the league alongside Kotkaniemi?

I

 

[Boyon90]

Love Kirby for sure,
But Caufield man... I've waited 30 years for this kid.

i totaly understand, we had kovalev for a while, but now its a whole different situation, because he's young

 

[CHwest]

Meh…NHL players say a lot of things, some repeat the old adage that the NHL is not a developmental league.

And we know that’s a load of crap.

“Rushed” is a relative term really.

Meh…The expert fans say a lot of things, some repeat the old adage that the NHL is not a developmental league.

And we know that’s a load of crap.

“Rushed” is a relative term really.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Kane didn't like how the Hawks developed Dach and isn't surprised he is starting to succeed.

Kane might be too concerned with his off-ice issues, and might not have noticed that Dach averaged over 18 minutes per game last year.

I'd take his comments with a grain of salt beause Patrick has an axe to grind with Hawks management.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Most players do not need 150-200 games to figure things out, they need less than 100 on average.

What you refer to is players that were rushed.


Just looking at the Habs 22-23 roster:
Suzuki didn't need more than 100 games.
Caufield didn't need more than 100 games.
Hoffman didn't need more than 100 games.
Anderson didn't need more than 100 games.
Dvorak didn't need more than 100 games.
Dadonov didn't need more than 100 games.
Monahan didn't need more than 100 games.
Gallagher didn't need more than 100 games.

Monahan is the only one of the above who started at 18. Furthermore, Slaf is at 39 games, not 100 yet! Geez.

Let's assess again after his 19yo season.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Most players do not need 150-200 games to figure things out, they need less than 100 on average.

What you refer to is players that were rushed.


Just looking at the Habs 22-23 roster:
Suzuki didn't need more than 100 games.
Caufield didn't need more than 100 games.
Hoffman didn't need more than 100 games.
Anderson didn't need more than 100 games.
Dvorak didn't need more than 100 games.
Dadonov didn't need more than 100 games.
Monahan didn't need more than 100 games.
Gallagher didn't need more than 100 games.

Hoffman - what are you talking about??

Hoffman played 56 Junior games and 275 pro games before having his first decent NHL season at age 24.

Anderson? He played 56 Junior and 126 pro games before having his first 17 goal season at age 23.

 

[Mrb1p]

Hoffman - what are you talking about??

Hoffman played 56 Junior games and 275 pro games before having his first decent NHL season at age 24.

Anderson? He played 56 Junior and 126 pro games before having his first 17 goal season at age 23.

Read the whole discussion and dont waste my time

 

[SlafySZN]

Kane might be too concerned with his off-ice issues, and might not have noticed that Dach averaged over 18 minutes per game last year.

I'd take his comments with a grain of salt beause Patrick has an axe to grind with Hawks management.

Kane is right, Dach was mismanaged in Chicago. It’s not the ice time it’s how they changed his linemates constantly, up and down in the lineup almost every game, he had no stability.

 

[Habs 4 Life]

Kane might be too concerned with his off-ice issues, and might not have noticed that Dach averaged over 18 minutes per game last year.

I'd take his comments with a grain of salt beause Patrick has an axe to grind with Hawks management.

Last year yes, but in his first 2 years he was. I mean rushed into to league would probably be hinting at that. But yes, I agree right now that Kane is not too happy with the Hawks management lol

 

[BaseballCoach]

Last year yes, but in his first 2 years he was. I mean rushed into to league would probably be hinting at that. But yes, I agree right now that Kane is not too happy with the Hawks management lol

Dach averaged over 17 minutes per game as a rookie in the PLAYOFFS (where actual overly sheltered, not-ready guys get glued to the bench).

Dach responded with 6 points in 9 games and a +3. Got praised universally.

The injury starting the next season set him back, and the constant line shifting may have messed him up, but still, 17-18 minutes a game meant he was LEARNING. So, it is not a surprise to me he is doing better this year in terms of points.

By the way, the injury happened while Kirby was preparing for the WJC as the Hawks lent him to TCJ. Take note that it was NOT from a kid being rushed into a mens league.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Kane might be too concerned with his off-ice issues, and might not have noticed that Dach averaged over 18 minutes per game last year.

I'd take his comments with a grain of salt beause Patrick has an axe to grind with Hawks management.

BaseballCoach would almost certainly have more insight into the situation than Kane.

I kid.

 

[BaseballCoach]

BaseballCoach would almost certainly have more insight into the situation than Kane.

I kid.

No, but Kane was objectively wrong about the numbers and therefore, any play with fourth liners must have been minimal, unless by fourth liners he meant people who play first or second line minutes.

 

[SlafySZN]

No, but Kane was objectively wrong about the numbers and therefore, any play with fourth liners must have been minimal, unless by fourth liners he meant people who play first or second line minutes.

What he meant was that Dach was playing all over the place, could play with Lafferty and Kurashev, next game was with Kubalik and Strome or Entwistle, then was suddenly centering the first or 2nd line with Kane and Debrincat for 3-4 games then was back on the 3rd line with different linemates. He never said he didn’t have ice time but he never was stable enough and it was like that all his time in chicago.

 

[Habs13]

Let's face it - Chicago is a shitshow. It was them that trained ol' Barginbin too.

 

[ReHabs]

No, but Kane was objectively wrong about the numbers and therefore, any play with fourth liners must have been minimal, unless by fourth liners he meant people who play first or second line minutes.

Dach didn’t get much PP time at all and was in-game benched often. I think that’s the gist of it.

 

[BaseballCoach]

What he meant was that Dach was playing all over the place, could play with Lafferty and Kurashev, next game was with Kubalik and Strome or Entwistle, then was suddenly centering the first or 2nd line with Kane and Debrincat for 3-4 games then was back on the 3rd line with different linemates. He never said he didn’t have ice time but he never was stable enough and it was like that all his time in chicago.

That is true, but the saving grace for Kirby, though not the Hawks, is that all those minutes and all those changing circumstances actually benefitted him and he was able to learn from all of it. His idiot GM did not see it. Their loss.

Interesting that Slafkovsky also bounced around with linemates and did better once he had stability with Monahan, though unfortunately it was short-lived.

The Habs are doing one thing better than the Hawks, which is they are communicating to him that this is a process and not putting pressure on him for results.

But the Habs' error was not enough minutes, especially at first. That being said, it is too bad he got hurt when he did because he was finally up over 14 minutes per game with Dvorak and handling it more than acceptably.

I think if he finds an average amunt of stability and works hard, we will see a big improvement in results next year. Fortyish points would be a nice target if we need to have one.

Dach didn’t get much PP time at all and was in-game benched often. I think that’s the gist of it.

I can see how it was confusing for Kirby not having the strong communication he is getting now in Montreal.

 

[ReHabs]

That is true, but the saving grace for Kirby, though not the Hawks, is that all those minutes and all those changing circumstances actually benefitted him and he was able to learn from all of it. His idiot GM did not see it. Their loss.

Interesting that Slafkovsky also bounced around with linemates and did better once he had stability with Monahan, though unfortunately it was short-lived.

The Habs are doing one thing better than the Hawks, which is they are communicating to him that this is a process and not putting pressure on him for results.

But the Habs' error was not enough minutes, especially at first. That being said, it is too bad he got hurt when he did because he was finally up over 14 minutes per game with Dvorak and handling it more than acceptably.

I think if he finds an average amunt of stability and works hard, we will see a big improvement in results next year. Fortyish points would be a nice target if we need to have one.


I can see how it was confusing for Kirby not having the strong communication he is getting now in Montreal.

Poor communication and “tough love” and benchings surely negatively affect many young players but old school coaches are set in their ways.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Poor communication and “tough love” and benchings surely negatively affect many young players but old school coaches are set in their ways.

Scotty Bowman was old school and bounced Lafleur around for 3 years from center to wing and on every line possible. There was pressure to trade him going into year 4 but Sam Pollock knew better, then Lafleur got stability as the RW of Mahovlich for two years then Lemaire for three years. And his experience and education suddenly paid off.

Kirby is not the same player and his level both before and after the three-year learning curve is much lower, but there are similarities, and the Hawks' GM is not Sam Pollock, LOL.

Even a lesser but still competent GM like Bob Gainey (compared to Pollock) saw that Carey Price was the thoroughbred and not Halak.

Hawks fans are in for a long winter in the 2020s while we give many votes of confidence to our youth.

 

[ReHabs]

Scotty Bowman was old school and bounced Lafleur around for 3 years from center to wing and on every line possible. There was pressure to trade him going into year 4 but Sam Pollock knew better, then Lafleur got stability as the RW of Mahovlich for two years then Lemaire for three years. And his experience and education suddenly paid off.

Kirby is not the same player and his level both before and after the three-year learning curve is much lower, but there are similarities, and the Hawks' GM is not Sam Pollock, LOL.

Even a lesser but still competent GM like Bob Gainey (compared to Pollock) saw that Carey Price was the thoroughbred and not Halak.

Hawks fans are in for a long winter in the 2020s while we give many votes of confidence to our youth.

I fully agree.

That’s why I support the current direction almost entirely — but you know I think Dach is more of a thoroughbred than the Slovak to whom I’m not permitted to refer. Every player has his own pedigree and it’s very encouraging to see the Habs -generally- develop their youth to allow them to approach their potential.