Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah, no.



If these guys aren't good enough to have a long-term future in Montreal, they won't be worth a single thing on the trade market either.

Of our forward prospects not yet with the club, Beck and Roy are the most intriguing. I think Beck projects to be a solid two way 3rd liner. Roy has outperformed every expectation by a mile but we’ll have a much better idea of where he’s at after this year. Hopefully he makes the jump well.

Again though, these things take years. It’s still so early.

 

[SlafySZN]

Our problem is that we be only got so many good wingers. There’s got to be a way of sharing CC between them.

I just think Suzuki is more established than Dach. Dach needs the confidence and more development. Suzuki is now a vet. He should be able to carry a line. Spread things out a little.

Another reason to try Dach with CC early. If it doesn’t work, then maybe we decide that he’s a winger. But we have to give it a real shot. Give him the tolls and see if he can swim. If he can, then maybe after 20 games we see how he does without CC…

I don’t think it makes sens. To weld CC to Suzuki when we’ve got another guy we’re trying to develop.

Dach was close to PPG in his last 15 games or so at C before he got injured. Hoffman and Dadonov were on his wing.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Of our forward prospects not yet with the club, Beck and Roy are the most intriguing. I think Beck projects to be a solid two way 3rd liner. Roy has outperformed every expectation by a mile but we’ll have a much better idea of where he’s at after this year. Hopefully he makes the jump well.

Again though, these things take years. It’s still so early.

I get that we have Slaf, Suzuki, Caufield and Dach on the roster but damn I find that so sad lol. We've been a poor club for like the last 6 years.

 

[Scriptor]

Our problem is that we be only got so many good wingers. There’s got to be a way of sharing CC between them.

I just think Suzuki is more established than Dach. Dach needs the confidence and more development. Suzuki is now a vet. He should be able to carry a line. Spread things out a little.

Another reason to try Dach with CC early. If it doesn’t work, then maybe we decide that he’s a winger. But we have to give it a real shot. Give him the tolls and see if he can swim. If he can, then maybe after 20 games we see how he does without CC…

I don’t think it makes sens. To weld CC to Suzuki when we’ve got another guy we’re trying to develop.

Where we don't agree is that I don't see this as a make or break year at all when it comes to Dach at C.

We both see Suzuki and Dach as our two top-6 C solutions for the future and I hope it is more because of their potential than the lack of other options currently in the system?

There is a way of sharing CC between them -- Play them the same line!

Build all three players' confidence and, come trade deadline, split them up at even strength when Monahan is traded and you need a 2nd C for the top-6, only to reunite them on the first PP wave.

Where is this absolute rush to play Dach at C with Caufield and let Suzuki out to dry?

Seriously, nurture the production and confidence of your three best youngsters in Caufield - Suzuki - Dach by playing them together to start the season.Let the other younger players progress during the season, whether it be in Montreal Laval and, come the trade deadline, realign your roster with more mature players earning bigger responsibilities.

That's realistic approach at helping your younger players progress. The rest tends to put the wagon in front of the horse.

 

[Scriptor]

Dach was close to PPG in his last 15 games or so at C before he got injured. Hoffman and Dadonov were on his wing.

If he stays healthy all year, I doubt that you can project he will be an 82-point C, even if you strip all the best wingers from Suzuki and hand them over to Dach, as seems to be the growing consensus for what to do on this forum.

Give Caufield and Monahan to Dach as wingers and let Suzuki deal with RHP and Anderson or Newhook as wingers.

Shameful.

We clearly lack wingers to make everyone happy in the short term, so why try to fit the square peg in the round hole?

 

[SlafySZN]

If he stays healthy all year, I doubt that you can project he will be an 82-point C, even if you strip all the best wingers from Suzuki and hand them over to Dach, as seems to be the growing consensus for what to do on this forum.

Give Caufield and Monahan to Dach as wingers and let Suzuki deal with RHP and Anderson or Newhook as wingers.

Shameful.

We clearly lack wingers to make everyone happy in the short term, so why try to fit the square peg in the round hole?

I was responding to the comment about giving Caufield to Dach and then see how he does without him. He produced and looked good with Hoffman and Dadonov.

Dach will play with whoever, if that is what bothering you, just play him at his position where his game looks best, and it is at center.

 

[Miller Time]

Build the confidence playing with the team's better offensive players while we have a good enough C to support the first line of Caufield - Suzuki- Dach on the 2nd line.

The confidence, right now, for Dach, at 22, is more important, IMO. He won't magically lose his skills or instincts as a C if he plays RW on the team's first line.

The whole argument of having two quality Cs per line during the Dubois thread still stands, Dubois or not. As the play evolves, Dach or Suzuki will trade off assuming C duties, both in the O-Zone, on the forecheck and the D-zone on the backcheck.

Dach will still regularly think and act like a C. Plus, he will get the occasional F/Os. Beyond that, he can practice with a skills coach until the roster fills out with more quality wingers for the top-6 -- at which time, he can return at C.

Montréal is still a couple of years away from knowing how good it's prospects up front -- Slafkovsky, Newhook, Roy, Beck, Farrell, Heineman, Kidney -- will be.

Dach could well return toC as early as the trade deadline if Monahan is traded by then, or at the start of next year, but, even if Dach were to resume a role as atop-6 C in 2025 only, as a 24/25 year old, there would be absolutely no negative impact on his development as a C, IMO.

To claim otherwise, IMO, is just a false narrative laden with unnecessary concern.

The nice thing is that MSL has flexibility with Suzuki, Dach, Monahan, Dvorak, Newhook & Evans all capable to play C.

I hear what you're saying, though I think you underestimate the player's own perspective & goals re. building confidence. If Dach sees himself as a C in the NHL, being trusted with big minutes and tough assignments in that role will have an impact on his confidence quite possibly (& I'd argue likely from my experience) more than being "sheltered" at wing with better linemates to bump his offensive output.

I think the coaching & management staff get elite performance egos better than we've seen in the past, so I'm confident they will be working closely with our top talent to figure out the best ways to set them up for success within the overall team & roster development.

Future is bright

 

[Rapala]

On pace for when it comes to goals for streaky goal scorers is a bit misleading but fair enough. Dach has hovered exactly between 7.7% and 7.9% as a shooting percentage in the NHL prior to the Habs. Last season was 13.1%. If he can sustain that jump it'll be impressive let alone further improvement like some fans in here are expecting.

Wrist injuries will do that to your numbers. I think he's now fully recovered so 12%-13% is probably about right. My belief is that Dach is hoping to be able to get off a lot more shots and not neccessarily up his shooting percentage. If he stays healthy and directs even 1 more shot per game to the net that works out to about 10 more goals a season at 12%. Nothing to sneeze at for sure.

 

[Miller Time]

I think Dach will need CC to put up anything over 70 points. And I don’t think that’s going to happen. There’s not really another winger in the lineup who I see as a real trigger man right now. I suppose they could try Slaf but he should probably be in the AHL.

I think we'll have a better line of sight to that come midseason...

A lot of talk about EP in the other threads... Pretty sure there aren't many people this time last year that would've projected his jump to a 100pt season while playing with an NHL unknown Kuzmenko, Michkeyev & Beauvillier as his main linemates all year.

IF Dach has the kind of break out year that is not that uncommon for an elite talent young player after a few NHL seasons (like Getzlaf whom you referenced), he will himself be driving a good amount of that production.

In Monahan, Newhook, Slaf and to a lesser extent, Heineman, RHP & Anderson, the Habs have some forwards with the talent and goal scoring ability complement a skilled C with Dach's speed, passing & playmaking talent.

The defense will also, assuming we stay healthier than last year, be considerably improved and better suited to support improved scoring beyond our top pairing.

There's FAR more offensive upside to the roster heading into this season than we saw last year. Up to the player's to show it, of course, but I don't agree that CC is the only factor that could support a breakthrough year for Dach.

 

[CHfan1]

I’m not sure why you keep going on with this. He was pacing for 20 goals. Absolutely respectable number and he’s working to improve on it.


If we want him to develop as a center they should consider putting CC on his wing to start the year. If they can get him going early, he’ll develop confidence. Then they have the option of being CC back with Nick or leaving him there.


I might put Slaf with Suzuki. Suzuki is a vet and he can help bring Slaf along. May put Monahan there too.

I’m sure the lines will change a lot anyway.

I think Slafkovsky has to start further down in the lineup. I’d like to see the Habs play him on the 3rd line with Monahan. I think he needs sheltered minutes going into next season. If he plays with Suzuki he’s going to be facing a lot of top players. I’d also put him on the PP2.

As far as Dach goes I want to see the Habs play and develop him at centre. I don’t think the Habs have anyone in their system other than Suzuki or Dach who could be a top 2 centre.

The problem of course is the Habs currently lack top 6 wingers, after Caufield it’s a bunch of question marks.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Where we don't agree is that I don't see this as a make or break year at all when it comes to Dach at C.

We both see Suzuki and Dach as our two top-6 C solutions for the future and I hope it is more because of their potential than the lack of other options currently in the system?

There is a way of sharing CC between them -- Play them the same line!

Build all three players' confidence and, come trade deadline, split them up at even strength when Monahan is traded and you need a 2nd C for the top-6, only to reunite them on the first PP wave.

Where is this absolute rush to play Dach at C with Caufield and let Suzuki out to dry?

Seriously, nurture the production and confidence of your three best youngsters in Caufield - Suzuki - Dach by playing them together to start the season.Let the other younger players progress during the season, whether it be in Montreal Laval and, come the trade deadline, realign your roster with more mature players earning bigger responsibilities.

That's realistic approach at helping your younger players progress. The rest tends to put the wagon in front of the horse.

I'd prefer the alternate route. Develop Dach as a center.

But hey, Dach was great on the wing and made that line much, much better. He really drove the play into the other zone.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think we'll have a better line of sight to that come midseason...

A lot of talk about EP in the other threads... Pretty sure there aren't many people this time last year that would've projected his jump to a 100pt season while playing with an NHL unknown Kuzmenko, Michkeyev & Beauvillier as his main linemates all year.

IF Dach has the kind of break out year that is not that uncommon for an elite talent young player after a few NHL seasons (like Getzlaf whom you referenced), he will himself be driving a good amount of that production.

In Monahan, Newhook, Slaf and to a lesser extent, Heineman, RHP & Anderson, the Habs have some forwards with the talent and goal scoring ability complement a skilled C with Dach's speed, passing & playmaking talent.

The defense will also, assuming we stay healthier than last year, be considerably improved and better suited to support improved scoring beyond our top pairing.

There's FAR more offensive upside to the roster heading into this season than we saw last year. Up to the player's to show it, of course, but I don't agree that CC is the only factor that could support a breakthrough year for Dach.

If Dach becomes Getzlaff I think we'd all be ecstatic. But that's a freaking high bar man.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I think Slafkovsky has to start further down in the lineup. I’d like to see the Habs play him on the 3rd line with Monahan. I think he needs sheltered minutes going into next season. If he plays with Suzuki he’s going to be facing a lot of top players. I’d also put him on the PP2.

As far as Dach goes I want to see the Habs play and develop him at centre. I don’t think the Habs have anyone in their system other than Suzuki or Dach who could be a top 2 centre.

The problem of course is the Habs currently lack top 6 wingers, after Caufield it’s a bunch of question marks.

I think Slaf should be in the minors. He needs top six minutes. If he's not getting them then why is he here? If he's in the NHL he should be rotated between Dach and Suzuki to see what clicks.

Honestly though, I'd much rather him be in the minors to start.

 

[Miller Time]

If Dach becomes Getzlaff I think we'd all be ecstatic. But that's a freaking high bar man.

Indeed. Though a bar I bet you he has set for himself

 

[Scriptor]

I was responding to the comment about giving Caufield to Dach and then see how he does without him. He produced and looked good with Hoffman and Dadonov.

Dach will play with whoever, if that is what bothering you, just play him at his position where his game looks best, and it is at center.

As much

I'd prefer the alternate route. Develop Dach as a center.

But hey, Dach was great on the wing and made that line much, much better. He really drove the play into the other zone.

I'm not discounting developing Dach at C, though. It just delays Dach playing as an outright C until the trade deadline this upcoming season, but allows for Caufield, Suzuki and Dach all gaining in confidence as, until then, Dach keeps driving play on the first line with the other two talented forwards that can make something of Dach's play.

In the meantime, as I already explained, Dach will still, lon various shifts, take on the role of C, even while playing RW on the Suzuki line.

Dach will stilll act as the play driver, same as he would at C, like many 1st line, playmaking wingers have done in the past.

Dach will also have his share of moments where he also acts like the C, defensively, as the first forward back into his own zone on the back check.

Playing wing for part of the season will not limit his development as a C, IMO.

As a bonus, once Dach returns to play C after the trade deadline, the nurtured chemistry between Caufield, Suzuki and Dach will cement a successful PP wave where the three players can be reunited.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Indeed. Though a bar I bet you he has set for himself

Looking at the stats, Dach's a little older than I thought. Reference counts last year as his age 22 year. This will be age 23. At 22, Getzlaff was a point per game player. He had 24 goals to go with it.

Dach last year paced for 54 points and 20 goals. Even if we're charitable and compare it to Getzlaff's 21st year you're looking at 58 points and 25 goals. I think you're setting the bar for Dach at an unrealistic level. Getzlaff was a great player man. And his numbers are also in a lower scoring era.

To be fair... he had Corey Perry on his wing. And things change if CC is stapled to Dach. Then I think you could see 70 points out of Dach. But again, I don't think that's going to happen. If anything, CC is more likely to play with Suzuki this year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

As much

I'm not discounting developing Dach at C, though. It just delays Dach playing as an outright C until the trade deadline this upcoming season, but allows for Caufield, Suzuki and Dach all gaining in confidence as, until then, Dach keeps driving play on the first line with the other two talented forwards that can make something of Dach's play.

In the meantime, as I already explained, Dach will still, lon various shifts, take on the role of C, even while playing RW on the Suzuki line.

Dach will stilll act as the play driver, same as he would at C, like many 1st line, playmaking wingers have done in the past.

Dach will also have his share of moments where he also acts like the C, defensively, as the first forward back into his own zone on the back check.

Playing wing for part of the season will not limit his development as a C, IMO.

As a bonus, once Dach returns to play C after the trade deadline, the nurtured chemistry between Caufield, Suzuki and Dach will cement a successful PP wave where the three players can be reunited.

Nah, he's a center. Play him there. If we want him to a center we shouldn't develop him as a winger.

What would make sense is putting him on the wing with those guys for the PP.

 

[CHfan1]

I think Slaf should be in the minors. He needs top six minutes. If he's not getting them then why is he here? If he's in the NHL he should be rotated between Dach and Suzuki to see what clicks.

Honestly though, I'd much rather him be in the minors to start.

While I agree with you on Laval if the Habs were to keep him in the NHL I think the top 6 is too high up for him right now. He can get good quality minutes playing on the 3rd line and have a decent centre in Monahan. Put him on the power play 2 and he’s most likely getting 14-15 minutes a night, which is where he should be at at this point.

 

[Redux91]

Looking at the stats, Dach's a little older than I thought. Reference counts last year as his age 22 year. This will be age 23. At 22, Getzlaff was a point per game player. He had 24 goals to go with it.

Dach last year paced for 54 points and 20 goals. Even if we're charitable and compare it to Getzlaff's 21st year you're looking at 58 points and 25 goals. I think you're setting the bar for Dach at an unrealistic level. Getzlaff was a great player man. And his numbers are also in a lower scoring era.

To be fair... he had Corey Perry on his wing. And things change if CC is stapled to Dach. Then I think you could see 70 points out of Dach. But again, I don't think that's going to happen. If anything, CC is more likely to play with Suzuki this year.

Think you're being a liiiittle too litteral with the comparing lol, they are not on the exact same train tracks JUST because they are both western 6"4ers with skill lol

They are similar looking players but one doesn't have to become the other point for point

If you look at the entirety of getzlafs career, it's not an impossibly difficult bar to reach, the ceiling in points is 91
It's a lot, and Dach might never hit 91, but if he hit say 83 points at his peak, for me that's reaching the "getzlaf bar", especially in MTL

Lastly, "getzlaf didn't do it in a high scoring era" I have to completely disagree with, as getzlaf came into the league at the EXACT moment of the offensive boom of the rebirth NHL of 2006, those 3+ years after the lockout have ridiculous numbers for a lot of people because they were calling 20 penalties a match
(Check out Scott Gomez 2006 stats you will freak out lol)

The rate it's going, and the team going in the up direction as opposed to down for the next few years, Dach will be touching 70 points regularly, he is that good, and our new GMs and coach are gonna let it happen by continuously infusing the team with players they want surrounding our new core guys, not bergevin handing out top 6 money to 4th liners

It's just about how good will he be at his peak prime, like I said, for me 83 would be wild but if he ever did better then that look out lol, would mean we're an eastern contender

 

[Kaladin]

Wrist injuries will do that to your numbers. I think he's now fully recovered so 12%-13% is probably about right. My belief is that Dach is hoping to be able to get off a lot more shots and not neccessarily up his shooting percentage. If he stays healthy and directs even 1 more shot per game to the net that works out to about 10 more goals a season at 12%. Nothing to sneeze at for sure.

The injury is a factor I hadn't fully accounted for. Good shoutout.

And yes - he's going to need to shoot a lot more + maintain last season's shooting % for this to work as I alluded to in another post.

 

[Miller Time]

Looking at the stats, Dach's a little older than I thought. Reference counts last year as his age 22 year. This will be age 23. At 22, Getzlaff was a point per game player. He had 24 goals to go with it.

Dach last year paced for 54 points and 20 goals. Even if we're charitable and compare it to Getzlaff's 21st year you're looking at 58 points and 25 goals. I think you're setting the bar for Dach at an unrealistic level. Getzlaff was a great player man. And his numbers are also in a lower scoring era.

To be fair... he had Corey Perry on his wing. And things change if CC is stapled to Dach. Then I think you could see 70 points out of Dach. But again, I don't think that's going to happen. If anything, CC is more likely to play with Suzuki this year.

Perry... And 2 HOF top pairing dmen

This is Dach's D+5 season. Getzlaf broke out in his D+5 year. They were both 22 heading into their respective D+5 seasons by my math?

They are only 2 months apart (Jan vs March), so pretty close on the age v. season lens.

In their respective D+4 years, Getzlaf put up .7ppg, finishing 6th in scoring on a cup winning team with 3 HOF (nieds, pronger, Selanne) ... Dach put up .65ppg on a lottery team while finishing 2nd in scoring despite playing only 58 games...

Yes, league scoring was up last year, but it's without question that Getzlaf played on a much better and higher scoring team at 21/22 & 22/ 23 when he broke out...

Anyways, bottom line is that we will see what he's able to do this year. I'm pretty excited to see what he can do. If healthy & the team isn't rolling mostly rookies and AHL players by xmas, I think his ceiling this year is quite a bit higher than you seem to peg it at.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Think you're being a liiiittle too litteral with the comparing lol, they are not on the exact same train tracks JUST because they are both western 6"4ers with skill lol

They are similar looking players but one doesn't have to become the other point for point

If you look at the entirety of getzlafs career, it's not an impossibly difficult bar to reach, the ceiling in points is 91
It's a lot, and Dach might never hit 91, but if he hit say 83 points at his peak, for me that's reaching the "getzlaf bar", especially in MTL

I don't think it's impossible either. But it's a high bar.

Lastly, "getzlaf didn't do it in a high scoring era" I have to completely disagree with, as getzlaf came into the league at the EXACT moment of the offensive boom of the rebirth NHL of 2006, those 3+ years after the lockout have ridiculous numbers for a lot of people because they were calling 20 penalties a match
(Check out Scott Gomez 2006 stats you will freak out lol)

The rate it's going, and the team going in the up direction as opposed to down for the next few years, Dach will be touching 70 points regularly, he is that good, and our new GMs and coach are gonna let it happen by continuously infusing the team with players they want surrounding our new core guys, not bergevin handing out top 6 money to 4th liners

It's just about how good will he be at his peak prime, like I said, for me 83 would be wild but if he ever did better then that look out lol, would mean we're an eastern contender

I don't know about this. Getzlaff's 'best' two seasons: 08-09 and 13-14.

In 08 there were three 100 point players. Malkin was 113. Crosby and OV were 110, 103 respectively. Getzlaff ties for 6th.
In 14 there was one 100 point player: Crosby at 104. 2nd highest is Getzlaff at 87, followed by Giroux at 86.

So 'high scoring' compared to what? The late 90s maybe, but certainly not today. 87 points in 2014 counts for a lot more then than it would now right?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Perry... And 2 HOF top pairing dmen

This is Dach's D+5 season. Getzlaf broke out in his D+5 year. They were both 22 heading into their respective D+5 seasons by my math?

They are only 2 months apart (Jan vs March), so pretty close on the age v. season lens.

In their respective D+4 years, Getzlaf put up .7ppg, finishing 6th in scoring on a cup winning team with 3 HOF (nieds, pronger, Selanne) ... Dach put up .65ppg on a lottery team while finishing 2nd in scoring despite playing only 58 games...

Yes, league scoring was up last year, but it's without question that Getzlaf played on a much better and higher scoring team at 22 & 23 when he broke out...

Anyways, bottom line is that we will see what he's able to do this year. I'm pretty excited to see what he can do. If healthy & the team isn't rolling mostly rookies and AHL players by xmas, I think his ceiling this year is quite a bit higher than you seem to peg it at.

I think he'll do somewhere around 60 points this year, 20 goals. Again though, that number goes up if CC is his full time RW.

Anything higher and I think everyone here is thrilled.

And yes, valid point on Niedermayer, Pronger... and Selanne who we all forgot.

 

[Garbageyuk]

A 80 points Dach is a 1C.


With everything he brings.

Technically, you’d be right. However, I never really thought of guys like Primeau, Krejci, etc as 1Cs, even though they finished top 30 for their position in scoring. If he ever gets 80+ consistently, I agree and would think of him as a 1C. I’m thinking 70-80 though in his prime.

 

[DAChampion]

Technically, you’d be right. However, I never really thought of guys like Primeau, Krejci, etc as 1Cs, even though they finished top 30 for their position in scoring. If he ever gets 80+ consistently, I agree and would think of him as a 1C. I’m thinking 70-80 though in his prime.

I think the answer is in your posts. 80 points needs to be a typical year for him to be a 1C, not his career best season.