Kingston Frontenacs 2023-24 Off-Season Thread (Part 4)

[ScoutLife4]

there are probably 5 goalies in the leauge that are 04s that are only in the league because of how bad the 05/06 goalies are overall in the ohl.

there are 5 goalies in the league right now that are 04s that are only in the league because how poor the 05/06 age group is in net.

really?the fact that hes even still in the league shows what they think.

Depends on how you look at it.....
Lalonde is not going to take Jet Greaves spot in Cleveland and would maybe play 15-20 games TOPS. - I don't know how close you guys follow AHL but he is top 3 in the league and almost on Yaroslav Askarov's level.
in 2025-2026 Greaves contract moves to a 1 way NHL contract and it opens Lalondes spot in Cleveland if he earns it.

What is better for his development? Playing 40 in the O possibly or playing 15 in the A?
The ECHL is not exactly the place players want to land. -i'd pick Kingston over Kalamazoo any day of the week.
Goalies are a different beast and also take a little more time and work.
No one is saying he's going to be the best goalie in the league but i wouldn't consider it an overpay by Kingston by any means.

@OMG67 was it not you that also said Guindon was a massive overpay too? he has looked exceptional in the 2 pre season games i live viewed.

 

[OMG67]

Depends on how you look at it.....
Lalonde is not going to take Jet Greaves spot in Cleveland and would maybe play 15-20 games TOPS. - I don't know how close you guys follow AHL but he is top 3 in the league and almost on Yaroslav Askarov's level.
in 2025-2026 Greaves contract moves to a 1 way NHL contract and it opens Lalondes spot in Cleveland if he earns it.

What is better for his development? Playing 40 in the O possibly or playing 15 in the A?
The ECHL is not exactly the place players want to land. -i'd pick Kingston over Kalamazoo any day of the week.
Goalies are a different beast and also take a little more time and work.
No one is saying he's going to be the best goalie in the league but i wouldn't consider it an overpay by Kingston by any means.

I am of the opinion that Goalies should not have a restriction on AGE. I’d go as far as to say the goalies are fine at 20 and would be considered overage at 21. I think it takes that long for goalies to properly develop for pro hockey. BUT. That is a completely different conversation from whether Lalonde is a capable goalie right now. A player like Lalonde may still be a reasonable prospect but specifically because goalies are more a strange breed from a development curve perspective, that curve could be quite shallow depending on the player. In this specific case, Lalonde has not proven to be a capable starter (statistically) even on a good team last year in Saginaw.

I understand that certain situations create more favourable stats for goalies and vice-versa but I tend to look at it the same was as +/-. You should’ t look at it from a league wide perspective but you can look at it from an internal team perspective. When you have a goalie of his apparent calibre with weaker statistics than his crease partner (basically every year in the league), you have to question his capability.

If Lalonde were a 19 year old and not eating up a valuable OA roster spot, this conversation would likely be different.

@OMG67 was it not you that also said Guindon was a massive overpay too? he has looked exceptional in the 2 pre season games i live viewed.

I said it was a “deadline price.” Typically speaking, OA’s are much cheaper in the pre-season. I was surprised they paid a deadline price. HOWEVER, it seems most trades so far have been at a deadline price so in hindsight, the market adjusted and it is what it is.

My issue with Guindon is quite simple. HE regressed last year. He has never put up 1C numbers. A team looking to enter a “go for it” year should have a bonafide #1 centre. I don’t believe Kingston has that. So, considering their direct competitors are much better in the 1C, I question if he is the right player for the right situation. If they manage to nail down a player like Wakely and Guindon shifts to 2C, then it becomes a non-issue and a much better fit from my perspective.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I am of the opinion that Goalies should not have a restriction on AGE. I’d go as far as to say the goalies are fine at 20 and would be considered overage at 21. I think it takes that long for goalies to properly develop for pro hockey. BUT. That is a completely different conversation from whether Lalonde is a capable goalie right now. A player like Lalonde may still be a reasonable prospect but specifically because goalies are more a strange breed from a development curve perspective, that curve could be quite shallow depending on the player. In this specific case, Lalonde has not proven to be a capable starter (statistically) even on a good team last year in Saginaw.

I understand that certain situations create more favourable stats for goalies and vice-versa but I tend to look at it the same was as +/-. You should’ t look at it from a league wide perspective but you can look at it from an internal team perspective. When you have a goalie of his apparent calibre with weaker statistics than his crease partner (basically every year in the league), you have to question his capability.

If Lalonde were a 19 year old and not eating up a valuable OA roster spot, this conversation would likely be different.



I said it was a “deadline price.” Typically speaking, OA’s are much cheaper in the pre-season. I was surprised they paid a deadline price. HOWEVER, it seems most trades so far have been at a deadline price so in hindsight, the market adjusted and it is what it is.

My issue with Guindon is quite simple. HE regressed last year. He has never put up 1C numbers. A team looking to enter a “go for it” year should have a bonafide #1 centre. I don’t believe Kingston has that. So, considering their direct competitors are much better in the 1C, I question if he is the right player for the right situation. If they manage to nail down a player like Wakely and Guindon shifts to 2C, then it becomes a non-issue and a much better fit from my perspective.

You mention +/- isn't really something you look at but that's really the only part of Guindons stat line that regressed.
He was on a weak team so +/- doesnt mean much as you mention.
Yes his pts were down a little bit but he was forced to play more a 2 way game on a pretty low end team.
Expect a similar picture from Luca Pinneli this season if he stays in ottawa.

 

[dirty12]

I doubt there is a better centre than Guindon that could be had for 2,3,4,5 picks. I like value of Gardner more if there will be an OA year, but Guindon is the better player for this season imo.

 

[leafs4life94]

Looks like everyone other than Ludwinski has been returned to Kingston as expected.

Was checking in on Burns and he got into a nice little scrap over the weekend against Dallas but also had two other minors. I have to imagine that's one of the biggest pieces of feedback the Blues will give him is to play physical but cut back on the undisciplined penalties.

I also noticed Wakely was returned to NB today - if Kingston is in on him I wonder if that move happens sooner rather than later.

On the whole Lalonde thing - I agree with the concern that an ideal world doesn't involve having an OA backup or even an OA in a 1A/1B tandem. If it doesn't work out, I really hope that Cooper has the stones to cut bait, especially with Lalonde being a local. BUT if it turns out that having a tandem allows them to get the most out of both Vaccari and Lalonde, then it's all worth it.

I've only seen the training camp scrimmages but Lalonde didn't impress me much - but that's a super small summer sample size.

 

[OMG67]

You mention +/- isn't really something you look at but that's really the only part of Guindons stat line that regressed.
He was on a weak team so +/- doesnt mean much as you mention.
Yes his pts were down a little bit but he was forced to play more a 2 way game on a pretty low end team.
Expect a similar picture from Luca Pinneli this season if he stays in ottawa.

If you truly want to contend, you need players that match your goals. Guindon is not a 1C on a contending team. Not even close. He’d be a fine 2C. At the time of his acquisition, the fans were suggesting he will fill in nicely on the top line. Sorry but that won’t work. He has not demonstrated at any point in his junior career to be a 1C on a contending team. Last year he was an average 2C on a poor team. Expecting a leap forward from 2C on a poor team to 1C on a contending team is not realistic.

You have to remember that a lot of my comments are based on expectations and refuting others that are not realistic with their expectations. It is perspective based.

I am fine with Guindon as the 2C. He fits the mould of a 2C on a good team. That’s his spot and where he excels. IMO, it is incumbent on Kingston to add a bonafide 1C. The issue is whether they can add a bonafide 1C while also addressing their needs on defence and potentially in net if the gamble they are taking on Lalonde and Vaccari doesn’t work out.

With respect to regression, Guindon has had three seasons in the league:

2022: 30-29-59
2023: 22-47-69
2024: 26-31-57

His numbers over a 3-year period have remained static. I think when you have a 3-year sample size and the numbers over the three years are generally static, it isn’t realistic to expect a jump in numbers. HE tops out at around a PPG. Again, if a PPG 1C what this Fronts team needs? Do the Fronts have the depth of scoring over three lines that would produce eight 20 goals scorers from forwards?… 4 PPG guys where the scoring is relatively evenly distributed over three lines? If so, maybe you get away with Guindon being a 1A because they also have a 1B and 1C right behind him. But, I don’t see that.

The Fronts aren’t a team that will win games buy shutting down their opponents defensively. So, they are going to need to score at a bit of a higher clip because they will give up some goals.

So, it all comes down to perspective. As @dirty12 says, the cost isn’t all that bad in light of the shifting market but if you need a 1C, are you looking for the economical OA addition or are you in need of the bonafide 1C? What Kingston did here is no different than what Ottawa did at the deadline last year adding Maillet. No one is going to confuse Maillet with a 1C in a contender.

 

[dirty12]

If you truly want to contend, you need players that match your goals. Guindon is not a 1C on a contending team. Not even close. He’d be a fine 2C. At the time of his acquisition, the fans were suggesting he will fill in nicely on the top line. Sorry but that won’t work. He has not demonstrated at any point in his junior career to be a 1C on a contending team. Last year he was an average 2C on a poor team. Expecting a leap forward from 2C on a poor team to 1C on a contending team is not realistic.

You have to remember that a lot of my comments are based on expectations and refuting others that are not realistic with their expectations. It is perspective based.

I am fine with Guindon as the 2C. He fits the mould of a 2C on a good team. That’s his spot and where he excels. IMO, it is incumbent on Kingston to add a bonafide 1C. The issue is whether they can add a bonafide 1C while also addressing their needs on defence and potentially in net if the gamble they are taking on Lalonde and Vaccari doesn’t work out.

With respect to regression, Guindon has had three seasons in the league:

2022: 30-29-59
2023: 22-47-69
2024: 26-31-57

His numbers over a 3-year period have remained static. I think when you have a 3-year sample size and the numbers over the three years are generally static, it isn’t realistic to expect a jump in numbers. HE tops out at around a PPG. Again, if a PPG 1C what this Fronts team needs? Do the Fronts have the depth of scoring over three lines that would produce eight 20 goals scorers from forwards?… 4 PPG guys where the scoring is relatively evenly distributed over three lines? If so, maybe you get away with Guindon being a 1A because they also have a 1B and 1C right behind him. But, I don’t see that.

The Fronts aren’t a team that will win games buy shutting down their opponents defensively. So, they are going to need to score at a bit of a higher clip because they will give up some goals.

So, it all comes down to perspective. As @dirty12 says, the cost isn’t all that bad in light of the shifting market but if you need a 1C, are you looking for the economical OA addition or are you in need of the bonafide 1C? What Kingston did here is no different than what Ottawa did at the deadline last year adding Maillet. No one is going to confuse Maillet with a 1C in a contender.

Guidon is a heck of a lot better over all than Maillet imo. As far as point production goes, I’d say ~1.15 ppg for as long as he is on PP1.
I 100% that Guindon cannot be used as a true #1 centre. Kingston for now at least, will need to have McNamara lean on the likes of Ritchie; and hope for the best, really.

But they are not the only wannabe contender that cannot match scoring lines. Brampton is worse off than Kingston in that regard. Brampton will be going with Karmiris and one of Misa or MacDonell; and without real 2-way LWs.

 

[OMG67]

Here’s the Blueprint I would pursue if I were the Kingston GM and I were hell bent on contending.

1> Move two 2nds, three 3rds, and two 4ths for Wakely. Hayes gets released.
2> Move Williamson (or Velliaris) two 2nds, three 3rds, 4th, 5th for Gibson
3> Move a 3rd, 4th, and a 5th for VanVliet. Release Lalonde. (Deadline deal)
4> Add a capable 19 year old back up goalie and roll with Vaccari as the starter. Lalonde will have spelled off Vaccari enough in the first half to allow Vaccari to play 2 games per week with the backup taking the 3rd game.

Fronts will still have a 2nd round pick in reserve. They could also dangle Weir if necessary. That is a ton of heavy lifting to make happen AND the players would all likely need to sign off on going to Kingston. But, if that were to happen, I could see Kingston being “playoff ready.”

Anything less than something like this and I doubt the Front would have an honest chance.

 

[leafs4life94]

Kingston has a regular season roster up on their site - 12 forwards, 8 dmen and 2 goalies.

No Shewfelt or McQuaig up front, still lists Chromiak on D along with Moore (who switched #s to 4), and Vaccari/Lalonde in net as expected.

Not 100% sure how I feel about going into the year with 12F on the roster but I guess it's better to have them getting regular icetime.

If there are changes to the Jr B callup rules I wonder if Kingston moves Shewfelt/McQuaig to a Jr B league.

 

[frontsfan67]

I also noticed Wakely was returned to NB today - if Kingston is in on him I wonder if that move happens sooner rather than later.

I hope they make the move on him. Even if it means potentially dropping Guindon/ Lalonde if/when ludwinski comes back. Wakely since he won’t be at the juniors is a threat to the scoring title. He isn’t the best player in the league but he’s top 10 and will play all the games. Gotta think he puts up 100+ points again this year.

If they have to overpay that’s fine. You don’t want Oshawa, Brampton, Brantford, Barrie getting this guy that’s for sure. As long as they don’t trade Hopkins they have to make this move happen

On the whole Lalonde thing - I agree with the concern that an ideal world doesn't involve having an OA backup or even an OA in a 1A/1B tandem. If it doesn't work out, I really hope that Cooper has the stones to cut bait, especially with Lalonde being a local. BUT if it turns out that having a tandem allows them to get the most out of both Vaccari and Lalonde, then it's all worth it.

Here’s the thing. I like the move but at the same time it just feels like they’re out getting the player that is from home and not the best player available. If they wanted the best player available for a goalie- why not parsons/sztuska? Just doesn’t make sense for me in that regard.

I’m sure he is the starter and plays about 30-40 games but they could’ve used that OA spot on a better goalie. Which to me makes him expendable. If they got let’s say sztuska instead I don’t think we’re having this conversation.

 

[frontsfan67]

Here’s the Blueprint I would pursue if I were the Kingston GM and I were hell bent on contending.

1> Move two 2nds, three 3rds, and two 4ths for Wakely. Hayes gets released.
2> Move Williamson (or Velliaris) two 2nds, three 3rds, 4th, 5th for Gibson
3> Move a 3rd, 4th, and a 5th for VanVliet. Release Lalonde. (Deadline deal)

You had me up until the last part. Why would they let go of Lalonde for a d man that wouldn’t be top 4 on a team like London. Would be better getting maybe Jacob Leblanc/Donovan McCoy instead even if they have to pay more atleast you get that better player.

4> Add a capable 19 year old back up goalie and roll with Vaccari as the starter. Lalonde will have spelled off Vaccari enough in the first half to allow Vaccari to play 2 games per week with the backup taking the 3rd game.

Fronts will still have a 2nd round pick in reserve. They could also dangle Weir if necessary. That is a ton of heavy lifting to make happen AND the players would all likely need to sign off on going to Kingston. But, if that were to happen, I could see Kingston being “playoff ready.”

Anything less than something like this and I doubt the Front would have an honest chance.

I’d like these moves to happen except for van Vliet but when do we have to start watching cards? They’ve made a few trades already and that would be a couple more.

 

[OMG67]

You had me up until the last part. Why would they let go of Lalonde for a d man that wouldn’t be top 4 on a team like London. Would be better getting maybe Jacob Leblanc/Donovan McCoy instead even if they have to pay more atleast you get that better player.

I don’t believe you have the assets to get Gibson and McCoy.

I’d like these moves to happen except for van Vliet but when do we have to start watching cards? They’ve made a few trades already and that would be a couple more.

Cards are not assigned until game 1.