Kingston Frontenacs 2023-24 Off-Season Thread (Part 4)

[dirty12]

Maybe it is just me but I think Ritchie coming back from injury in mid-November had a lot more to do with their success.

Again, adding OA’s is good practise. Do it if the right ones come available at the right price. But, would Oshawa have added Lockhart and Punnett if they were paying what Kingston jsut paid for Guindon? Two 3rds, a 5th and Stewart for Lockhart and Punnett is an outright steal in the aggregate. Call it good fortune with players that wanted to go there. I’m not seeing any early season players making powerplays to go play for the Fronts.

If Kingston ends up with DeAngelis for a 3rd and 5th next week, we can talk about early OA acquisitions and how important they are. Until then, while teams are paying full pop, I think we can agree that the Oshawa situation last year with them acquiring Lockhart and Punnett for what equates to a ball of soap chips is the anomaly, not the rule. Although, later this year at the deadline when the music stops and other teams have filled their OA slots and there is a team sitting there with an empty chair, they will be looking at that team saying, “Come to poppa!”… jsut like OShawa did with Barrie and Punnett.

Punnet at that price was an anomoly, it will be several seasons before the best potentially available OA D all season goes at that price point again.

I think Ritchie is the #1 centre.
The gens became a good team a few weeks after Ritchie returned. He got up to speed around the same time Lockhart arrived. The gens were excellent with Punnet, (lost 7/8 games when Punnet hurt himself). Punnet was a game changer for Oshawa.

 

[beastintheeast]

I think the smart play is to let the team they have in the room now to go out and prove they have something worth while to invest in. If the team performs as anticipated and the landscape is lined up in a way where it makes sense to invest then go do it.

If the team doesn’t play as anticipated, it doesn’t matter how old the team is. Either they are good or they aren’t. If they aren’t as good as anticipated, then you don’t blindly burn assets for no good reason.

I don’t believe a team can trade their way into being good. You first need to be good and then to get really good, you add a couple key pieces. First prove you are good.

This is why I am so surprised Brampton and Barrie have already added key players. Neither team were particularly good last year. They were fine young teams but you know as well as me that sometimes teams don’t turn the corner and elevate their game with age.

That is the point I was trying to make to say that you need to make trades now when you donot have any provven players except for maybe Burns. I a risk.

To say that you need to add an OA center a2 star defenceman i

It is, to me, a joke. Contender teams have 90% of the players on their team already. As you said you can not trade for the world and make a new team.

Kingston may have a few star players, and the plan may have been to contend this year, but if you have a bunch of teams with the same outlook, something is going to have to change somewhere.

Why say we are built for this year, so we are going for it no matter what, and then we will suck for a couple of years. makes no sense.

FF you made my point no one is going to pay 30 bucks plus plus to see a rebuilding team. It has very little to do with the visiting team.

I don't know how long you've been a fan of the team, but you obviously don't know me.

As the old timers here will tell you there is nothing casual about me. It does not come more rabid about the beast.

Casual fans are attracted to come to a game maybe 2 or 3. They like the entertainment so they buy more tickets and possibly bring a friend.
If the product is right, they will become true fans who come out for every game and cheer for the team.

Most of them do so for a nice night out and the fact that they enjoy the games.

University and college fans go to the games for the same reason that high school students used to go to the Canadian games. There were players from their school and it was a good date night.

Queens students go to cheer for Queens yes the price has a bit to do with it but it is school spirit that drives them


RMC is the military ethos. Go to a game with the MP and the Sigs, and you will see a packed house.


These people do not have the money and do not have the desire or tie-in to come to a game and never really have.

Do you really think that a casual fan does what I did with Riley and, by the way, got the beast barred from some of the rinks?

 

[ScoutLife4]

If at some point you had actually looked at the roster, you would have realized this is the year Kingston will try to contend. By mid-season 2022-23, the frontenacs had 3-1sts born 2005 including he #4 & #5 picks. That should have been a clue that Kingston is building for the 2024-25 season.

He's still looking at a roster from 2022 with 15 players that are no longer on the team again probably.

 

[ScoutLife4]

It’s the same as every OHL team for ticket prices and the league controls the price structure and its downtown like pretty much every other arena is.

The price is what the fan is willing to pay for the entertainment. Yes it is downtown but considering that most people live and work on the west end it is still a trip that a person has to make to get to the game.

These things add up against whether it is worth my time and money to go to a game. Will it be more entertaining than other things we could do,

You have not been looking at the other teams or listening to what is being said. Brampton and barrie set this year as their year they have a much better line up. Yes Kington could be and should be in that group but as you dais ther have been no games played. Therefore the reverse is true How do you know this is the year to go for it? Are you going to measure up.

Also, what is going for it? Does it mean trading all your draft picks and young players?

my point is that people have to look at this from 2 different points of view.

I am a diehard and I want a championship team this year to hell with the next 2-3
or
I want to go see a team play and by season tickets because it is a good show every year.

My point is that if near december the Fronts find themselves in first then by all means make trades but if they re not an elite team then only make a few and build for next year.

So what's the point in rambling on about price if they cannot control it is my point.
The league sets the pricing structure.
The arena is down town near the water i'm not sure where else you would suggest? -The arena is one of the newest in the league so its not like they are going to build a new one lol.

I've been following quite closely and right now Fronts have the 4-5 best team in the East if i was to guess. But they also only need to make a couple tweaks to be right up there in the 2-3 spot and they have the picks to do it.

 

[OMG67]

Punnet at that price was an anomoly, it will be several seasons before the best potentially available OA D all season goes at that price point again.

I think Ritchie is the #1 centre.
The gens became a good team a few weeks after Ritchie returned. He got up to speed around the same time Lockhart arrived. The gens were excellent with Punnet, (lost 7/8 games when Punnet hurt himself). Punnet was a game changer for Oshawa.

Are you saying that if Punnett were on Kingston last year, Kingston would have made it to the Finals? Of course not. Punnett made a difference for Oshawa because Oshawa was a good team and he was the final missing piece.

The question is whether Kingston is one or two pieces away from punching their ticket to the Finals. We won’t know that until at least half a season is in the books.

Lockhart was added about 1-2 weeks before Ritchie came back. Oshawa went on their run later in the season. It was a team that pulled their collective shit together late and went on a really good run. It happens. See Peterborough in 2023….

My whole point is they should go out and prove they are a team worth investing in as a result of their play on the ice, not the analysis on paper. After a year where they underachieved pretty hard, bought a player at the deadline and finished two games above .500 and won only one playoff game, I think it is incumbent on that team to prove they have what it takes with the current core. Prove that one or two more players is the difference maker. Even if they are losing a lot, you see the drive and the gaps that are holding them back. That’s fine. They don’t need to go out and play .700 hockey to prove it.

 

[OMG67]

So what's the point in rambling on about price if they cannot control it is my point.
The league sets the pricing structure.
The arena is down town near the water i'm not sure where else could would suggest? -The arena is one of the newest in the league so its not like they are going to build a new one lol.

I've been following quite closely and right now Fronts have the 4-5 best team in the East if i was to guess. But they also only need to make a couple tweaks to be right up there in the 2-3 spot and they have the picks to do it.

I think the challenge is they were probably in the same situation last year and they made a couple tweaks and they fell in the standings. So, from my perspective, it would be good for them to go out with the core they have now and play some good hockey.

From a financial perspective, there is nothing seriously wrong with Kingston. Good building, good population base to draw from, relatively little to no competition for the sporting entertainment dollar etc. The question is wha their owner is and is not willing to do. From my perspective, it really comes down to Springer. He made an investment in Mann which is a good sign.

This is why I am questioning their all-in approach this year. The all-in approach will satisfy the fans already in the building. If this approach doesn’t work and they end up out of the playoffs early and follow it up with a rebuild, any fans they gain this season will be gone next season.

It isn’t a bad strategy provided the owner doesn’t care about building a sustainable fan base bigger than it is now. I don’t know what the financial strategy is for this team so from that perspective, how can I criticize it? They could be looking at this as a competitive window and building a fan base and generating sustain revenue isn’t even a discussion point. If it isn’t a discussion point for them, why would it be a discussion point for us?

 

[ScoutLife4]

I think the challenge is they were probably in the same situation last year and they made a couple tweaks and they fell in the standings. So, from my perspective, it would be good for them to go out with the core they have now and play some good hockey.

From a financial perspective, there is nothing seriously wrong with Kingston. Good building, good population base to draw from, relatively little to no competition for the sporting entertainment dollar etc. The question is wha their owner is and is not willing to do. From my perspective, it really comes down to Springer. He made an investment in Mann which is a good sign.

This is why I am questioning their all-in approach this year. The all-in approach will satisfy the fans already in the building. If this approach doesn’t work and they end up out of the playoffs early and follow it up with a rebuild, any fans they gain this season will be gone next season.

It isn’t a bad strategy provided the owner doesn’t care about building a sustainable fan base bigger than it is now. I don’t know what the financial strategy is for this team so from that perspective, how can I criticize it? They could be looking at this as a competitive window and building a fan base and generating sustain revenue isn’t even a discussion point. If it isn’t a discussion point for them, why would it be a discussion point for us?

Have they really done that much to tell you guys that they are all in?
Frasca demanded out and they needed another C so they brought in an OA C in Guindon.

Pie reporting isn't an indication they are all in - It's just the development path his NHL team wanted.
Picking up Lalonde who is an average goalie was just a backup plan in case Vaccari doesn't pan out imo.

It's not like they have went out and drained the piggy bank on players and are still not good enough.
They have barely done anything move wise yet.

 

[OMG67]

Have they really done that much to tell you guys that they are all in?
Frasca demanded out and they needed another C so they brought in an OA C in Guindon.

Pie reporting isn't an indication they are all in - It's just the development path his NHL team wanted.
Picking up Lalonde who is an average goalie was just a backup plan in case Vaccari doesn't pan out imo.

It's not like they have went out and drained the piggy bank on players and are still not good enough.
They have barely done anything move wise yet.

I am not having a discussion with the Kingston Management team. I am having a discussion with Kingston fans that are all mostly suggesting this is an all-in or nothing season.

If the Management team holds off at this point and doesn’t do anything until closer to the deadline, they will have done exactly what I think they should have done. I cannot fault any of their moves so far other than Lalonde. I think wasting an OA spot on an unproven goalie that isn’t a clear cut starter #1 is probably not an ideal move. Spend a bit more and get a baonafide starter if you are going to burn an OA spot.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I am not having a discussion with the Kingston Management team. I am having a discussion with Kingston fans that are all mostly suggesting this is an all-in or nothing season.

If the Management team holds off at this point and doesn’t do anything until closer to the deadline, they will have done exactly what I think they should have done. I cannot fault any of their moves so far other than Lalonde. I think wasting an OA spot on an unproven goalie that isn’t a clear cut starter #1 is probably not an ideal move. Spend a bit more and get a baonafide starter if you are going to burn an OA spot.

OA spots isn't an issue right now for Kingston. Heyes would be easy to cut loose if they need to clear a spot in the future.
The cost on Lalonde was a conditional 15th round pick for a signed NHL goalie. -There is some value there.

 

[FrontalLobe]

He's still looking at a roster from 2022 with 15 players that are no longer on the time again probably.

When will he ask how Budnick and Schneider looked on the weekend? Lol.

 

[OMG67]

OA spots isn't an issue right now for Kingston. Heyes would be easy to cut loose if they need to clear a spot in the future.
The cost on Lalonde was a conditional 15th round pick for a signed NHL goalie. -There is some value there.

As soon as he plays one regular season game, that conditional pick turns into a 3rd and 7th. So, it really isn’t nothing. It isn’t anything crazy but it is still something that they’d need to swallow if it doesn’t work out where he is your #1 goalie. If he is your backup, you have to think they would need to upgrade their OA’s and he would be on the chopping block. I don’t think a team with aspirations can have a backup OA goalie.

 

[ScoutLife4]

As soon as he plays one regular season game, that conditional pick turns into a 3rd and 7th. So, it really isn’t nothing. It isn’t anything crazy but it is still something that they’d need to swallow if it doesn’t work out where he is your #1 goalie. If he is your backup, you have to think they would need to upgrade their OA’s and he would be on the chopping block. I don’t think a team with aspirations can have a backup OA goalie.

Again, The team is loaded with picks, especially 3rds. Small price to pay for an NHL signed goalie when you need the back up plan for Vaccari.
There's some players that still need to be moved as well. Chromiak has to go. -I'm not sure he holds much value but you would probably be able to cancel those Lalonde picks out.
Heyes is going to be moved - Just unsure what the return would be there.
This team is sitting pretty right now with the draft pick stock pile imo.

 

[dirty12]

Are you saying that if Punnett were on Kingston last year, Kingston would have made it to the Finals? Of course not. Punnett made a difference for Oshawa because Oshawa was a good team and he was the final missing piece.

The question is whether Kingston is one or two pieces away from punching their ticket to the Finals. We won’t know that until at least half a season is in the books.

Lockhart was added about 1-2 weeks before Ritchie came back. Oshawa went on their run later in the season. It was a team that pulled their collective shit together late and went on a really good run. It happens. See Peterborough in 2023….

My whole point is they should go out and prove they are a team worth investing in as a result of their play on the ice, not the analysis on paper. After a year where they underachieved pretty hard, bought a player at the deadline and finished two games above .500 and won only one playoff game, I think it is incumbent on that team to prove they have what it takes with the current core. Prove that one or two more players is the difference maker. Even if they are losing a lot, you see the drive and the gaps that are holding them back. That’s fine. They don’t need to go out and play .700 hockey to prove it.

If they had Punnet instead of Holmes who never seemed recovered from injury, Kingston has a different route; and probably does go further.
Hey, the gens lost 7/8 once Punnet was hurt; he was a difference maker for that team.
The goal scoring pace of Vilmanis with NB matched his ppg pace with Sarnia.

The real point the whole time was add players that suit the coach and team, not big names. Wakely-Battaglia would be a top, top line. If he sticks as a pro, Kingston should be trying to pry one of Delic, VanSteensel, Swick ASAP imo. Allard might be a reasonable facsimile of Ludwinski.


It is not ideal, but there is really nothing wrong with having an OA goalie as a co-starter this season. There are no 19 yr olds that I am aware of worth it.


Regardless of what Kingston does this season, next season is more than a year of re-tooling; and saving or even adding future assets this season does not change the time line of the next competitive season.
The rebuild of the Bulldogs after ‘22 was much more impressive than the Frontenacs. Their window of opportunity started …the same time as Kingston?

 

[OHL4Life]

Again, The team is loaded with picks, especially 3rds. Small price to pay for an NHL signed goalie when you need the back up plan for Vaccari.
There's some players that still need to be moved as well. Chromiak has to go. -I'm not sure he holds much value but you would probably be able to cancel those Lalonde picks out.
Heyes is going to be moved - Just unsure what the return would be there.
This team is sitting pretty right now with the draft pick stock pile imo.

i dont think heyes has any value tbh. chromiak very low as well, not sure your getting a 3 and 5th for him

 

[OMG67]

Again, The team is loaded with picks, especially 3rds. Small price to pay for an NHL signed goalie when you need the back up plan for Vaccari.
There's some players that still need to be moved as well. Chromiak has to go. -I'm not sure he holds much value but you would probably be able to cancel those Lalonde picks out.
Heyes is going to be moved - Just unsure what the return would be there.
This team is sitting pretty right now with the draft pick stock pile imo.

You aren’t looking at it the correct way. There is an opportunity cost to maintain an OA goalie. That opportunity cost is when Lalonde is sitting on your bench, you effectively play with two OA’s. Having Lalonde as an OA goalie is like keeping Chromiak as an Import D-Man and not adding Pieniniemi or keeping Hayes and not adding Guindon. Same scenario. You have limited Import and OA spots available. An OA goalie that is not your starter is effectively eliminating one of those highly necessary roster spots.

If they had Punnet instead of Holmes who never seemed recovered from injury, Kingston has a different route; and probably does go further.
Hey, the gens lost 7/8 once Punnet was hurt; he was a difference maker for that team.
The goal scoring pace of Vilmanis with NB matched his ppg pace with Sarnia.

The real point the whole time was add players that suit the coach and team, not big names. Wakely-Battaglia would be a top, top line. If he sticks as a pro, Kingston should be trying to pry one of Delic, VanSteensel, Swick ASAP imo. Allard might be a reasonable facsimile of Ludwinski.


It is not ideal, but there is really nothing wrong with having an OA goalie as a co-starter this season. There are no 19 yr olds that I am aware of worth it.


Regardless of what Kingston does this season, next season is more than a year of re-tooling; and saving or even adding future assets this season does not change the time line of the next competitive season.
The rebuild of the Bulldogs after ‘22 was much more impressive than the Frontenacs. Their window of opportunity started …the same time as Kingston?

If you are going to use an OA spot on a goalie, use it on an elite one. I can think of three right now that would likley be available provided the price were right.

 

[ScoutLife4]

You aren’t looking at it the correct way. There is an opportunity cost to maintain an OA goalie. That opportunity cost is when Lalonde is sitting on your bench, you effectively play with two OA’s. Having Lalonde as an OA goalie is like keeping Chromiak as an Import D-Man and not adding Pieniniemi or keeping Hayes and not adding Guindon. Same scenario. You have limited Import and OA spots available. An OA goalie that is not your starter is effectively eliminating one of those highly necessary roster spots.



If you are going to use an OA spot on a goalie, use it on an elite one. I can think of three right now that would likley be available provided the price were right.

I have a tough time thinking OMG67 from HFB knows more about goaltending skills then the Columbus blue jackets.

 

[OHL4Life]

You aren’t looking at it the correct way. There is an opportunity cost to maintain an OA goalie. That opportunity cost is when Lalonde is sitting on your bench, you effectively play with two OA’s. Having Lalonde as an OA goalie is like keeping Chromiak as an Import D-Man and not adding Pieniniemi or keeping Hayes and not adding Guindon. Same scenario. You have limited Import and OA spots available. An OA goalie that is not your starter is effectively eliminating one of those highly necessary roster spots.



If you are going to use an OA spot on a goalie, use it on an elite one. I can think of three right now that would likley be available provided the price were right.

there are probably 5 goalies in the leauge that are 04s that are only in the league because of how bad the 05/06 goalies are overall in the ohl.

there are 5 goalies in the league right now that are 04s that are only in the league because how poor the 05/06 age group is in net.

I have a tough time thinking OMG67 from HFB knows more about goaltending skills then the Columbus blue jackets.

really?the fact that hes even still in the league shows what they think.

 

[OMG67]

really?the fact that hes even still in the league shows what they think.

And that there is discussion of whether he is a starting goalie……as an OA….. on a team with a goalie that is 5’10” that their own fanbase generally doesn’t have confidence in.

 

[dirty12]

You aren’t looking at it the correct way. There is an opportunity cost to maintain an OA goalie. That opportunity cost is when Lalonde is sitting on your bench, you effectively play with two OA’s. Having Lalonde as an OA goalie is like keeping Chromiak as an Import D-Man and not adding Pieniniemi or keeping Hayes and not adding Guindon. Same scenario. You have limited Import and OA spots available. An OA goalie that is not your starter is effectively eliminating one of those highly necessary roster spots.



If you are going to use an OA spot on a goalie, use it on an elite one. I can think of three right now that would likley be available provided the price were right.

There are no ‘elite’ OA goalies. Oke is probably the best one, but there is no precipitous drop from him to Stzustka to Oster, LaLonde, Parsons, MacKenzie, …
Having said that, with a clean medical report I’d probably choose MacKenzie as a co-starter.
This year, I do not know of a potentially available top ten 19 yr old goalie; Robertson?

 

[OHL4Life]

And that there is discussion of whether he is a starting goalie……as an OA….. on a team with a goalie that is 5’10” that their own fanbase generally doesn’t have confidence in.

your not wrong, if you are an OA and not a true starter like oster, whats the point?

cooper loved vacari for some reason and just went hard on him for years, this is where it got you

 

[OMG67]

There are no ‘elite’ OA goalies. Oke is probably the best one, but there is no precipitous drop from him to Stzustka to Oster, LaLonde, Parsons, MacKenzie, …
Having said that, with a clean medical report I’d probably choose MacKenzie as a co-starter.
This year, I do not know of a potentially available top ten 19 yr old goalie; Robertson?

I think you can extend that ELITE tag to the entire OHL Goalie class. There are a lot of capable goalies and they will all mostly find their way to the top teams. Elite? Is there one that is a true elite goalie in this league? Ivankovic as a 17 year old? George, maybe?

EDIT:
Any talk about changing the OA rules for Goalies to not be counted toward the total allowable needs to turn from talk to action soon!

 

[OHL4Life]

I think you can extend that ELITE tag to the entire OHL Goalie class. There are a lot of capable goalies and they will all mostly find their way to the top teams. Elite? Is there one that is a true elite goalie in this league? Ivankovic as a 17 year old? George, maybe?

george is the closest now but ivankovic may be better in 18 months.

 

[beastintheeast]

The challenge for the management and the city (I don't think the rink management has any say) is what they are doing. Are they building a team for the fans they already have, or are they trying to add fans to the seats?
@OMG67 has hit the nail I have been hitting. The team is good but consider this there are supposedly better teams look at the power ranking by the pundits.

Next year you lose
Uronen
Heyes
Pieniniemi
Burns (?)

OA to choose from
Pickell
Miedema
McNamara
MCGowwan
Uen
Vaccari


So, really, you are not going to lose any of your offensive stars. What you need to hope is that the defence that you have develops.

So you really are not losing anything or wasting a year developing what you have.

The only error I see this team making was not drafting a young Euro this year.

 

[leafs4life94]

The team will lose all their depth next year. I expect they'll keep one forward, one D and Vaccari - I would rather they keep McGowan over Uens but if I had to guess they keep Uens - although part of me thinks it would be interesting to keep them both over the 2 forwards.

Battaglia	Guindon	Uronen
Miedema	Hopkins	Soto
Pickell	McNamara	Heyes
Shewfelt	Buttar	Weir
McQuaig	Kelly
Burns	Pieniniemi
McGowan	Uens
Velliaris	Williamson
	Moore
Lalonde
Vaccari
Betts

They can only bring back three of the italicized players. They have 6 players not back for sure, and another 4 '05s that will be cut. Based on the current roster (there likely will a ton of turnover by end of year) - they'll only have 2 19 year olds. In order to make a run you have to have a steady base of 19 year olds followed by impact OAs and and a couple impact young guns.

Kingston will not have the 19 year old base next year. Based on the current roster make-up they'll have 2 '06s - Battaglia and Williamson. Battaglia should be a force, and if Williamson progresses again he'll be a decent middle pair guy - but after that? Nothing. Then looking at the '07s - it seems like at most they'll have is 5 - Hopkins (top line), Weir (middle six), Velliaris (middle pair), Moore (toss-up since he hasn't played but likely bottom pair at best) and Shewfelt (toss-up again but likely 3rd line ceiling).

Next year is the year to go young in the import draft - hopefully get a couple 2 year players and build around them and the two '09 firsts.

I understand the argument of not blowing your wad before a game has been played - but they don't have the luxury have pushing it back a year, if it doesn't look like they can contend this year they might as well sell everyone.

 

[frontsfan67]

The team will lose all their depth next year. I expect they'll keep one forward, one D and Vaccari - I would rather they keep McGowan over Uens but if I had to guess they keep Uens - although part of me thinks it would be interesting to keep them both over the 2 forwards.

Battaglia	Guindon	Uronen
Miedema	Hopkins	Soto
Pickell	McNamara	Heyes
Shewfelt	Buttar	Weir
McQuaig	Kelly
Burns	Pieniniemi
McGowan	Uens
Velliaris	Williamson
	Moore
Lalonde
Vaccari
Betts

Thanks for making this up as I REALLY didn’t feel like it lol.

This is what we’ve all been saying all along but the Ottawa guys don’t get it.

Next year is the year to go young in the import draft - hopefully get a couple 2 year players and build around them and the two '09 firsts.

Absolutely

I understand the argument of not blowing your wad before a game has been played - but they don't have the luxury have pushing it back a year, if it doesn't look like they can contend this year they might as well sell everyone.

Too early to tell. One things for sure though- next year is not the year