Kingston Frontenacs 2023-24 Off-Season Thread (Part 4)

[frontsfan67]

My whole point in this discussion is that Brampton will be too far ahead for anything Kingston doing making a meaningful dent in their success this year. I even stated CLEARLY that this wasn’t about denigrating Kingston. It is about pumping the tires of Brampton.

If Kingston finishes 3rd with 80 points and plays Barrie in Round 2 and they have 90 points and the Fronts lose, what does that accomplish? They’d go into next season with nothing other than the two 1st rounders and a two year selloff. They’d be in a similar situation to the Petes EXCEPT the Petes won a Championship, not a single round in the playoffs.

If Kingston finishes third and loses to the second placed team in a close fought battle in the second round I’d take that over being a 50 win team and losing to the 4th seed

Regardless they’re pushing their chips in. Right or wrong.

 

[OMG67]

If Kingston finishes third and loses to the second placed team in a close fought battle in the second round I’d take that over being a 50 win team and losing to the 4th seed

Regardless they’re pushing their chips in. Right or wrong.

Why would any GM in their right mind trade all assets not bolted down knowing they would need some sort of Devine intervention to maneuver their way into “conference” contention? Make no mistake. Kingston would need to pull off a Petes type deadline meaning even Hopkins and Weir are traded. I can’t make sense of it.

Have things been so bad that winning one round in the playoffs is considered a win after moving all your picks and ‘07s?

 

[ScoutLife4]

Why would any GM in their right mind trade all assets not bolted down knowing they would need some sort of Devine intervention to maneuver their way into “conference” contention? Make no mistake. Kingston would need to pull off a Petes type deadline meaning even Hopkins and Weir are traded. I can’t make sense of it.

Have things been so bad that winning one round in the playoffs is considered a win after moving all your picks and ‘07s?

It sounds like you have already crowned Brampton the OHL champion before training camp even starts.
Should every team sell off now and just gift them the Memorial cup appearance?

 

[frontsfan67]

Why would any GM in their right mind trade all assets not bolted down knowing they would need some sort of Devine intervention to maneuver their way into “conference” contention? Make no mistake. Kingston would need to pull off a Petes type deadline meaning even Hopkins and Weir are traded. I can’t make sense of it.

I can see weir being traded but I think they’d want to wait and see what they have first once he plays some games.

Hopkins I can’t see it unless it’s for Barlow then maybe. They need to trade him next year to recoup the draft picks and maybe get an 09 in that package

Next year if he takes a big leap I think he is one of the guys they may look at trading and then would probably try building around the 09 group for the final 2 years of manns contract.

Have things been so bad that winning one round in the playoffs is considered a win after moving all your picks and ‘07s?

They haven’t been but the reality is ever since the 2017/2018 team they’ve stunk. Only made it past the first round once I believe in that time.

If it’s a close matchup with that second seeded team in the second round and they win that’ll be a big win in my opinion. Going to the conference finals- something I believe they’ve only ever done maybe twice. Not a championship but it’s still a pretty successful season that a lot of the fans will have something to cheer about.

We in Kingston aren’t as privileged as some of the other ohl teams that every year they’re in it to win it. Never has been like that and never will. Gotta take what we can get.

Let’s say hypothetically speaking the fronts play Brantford/oshawa round 2, win and Brampton and Barrie who finish 1 and 4 seeds respectively beat themselves up in the second round- it goes 7 games and Barrie wins. Both upsets in the second round and Kingston gets that home ice round 3. Lots of stuff can happen it’s junior hockey we see big upsets all the time. Point is. If Kingston never puts their chips in then they lose anyways- might as well try and go for it.

 

[OMG67]

It sounds like you have already crowned Brampton the OHL champion before training camp even starts.
Should every team sell off now and just gift them the Memorial cup appearance?

No. They should wait a couple months into the season to judge whether their team is capable and whether Brampton is living up to the hype. The alternative is to just throw caution to the wind in August…..

 

[dirty12]

My whole point in this discussion is that Brampton will be too far ahead for anything Kingston doing making a meaningful dent in their success this year. I even stated CLEARLY that this wasn’t about denigrating Kingston. It is about pumping the tires of Brampton.

If Kingston finishes 3rd with 80 points and plays Barrie in Round 2 and they have 90 points and the Fronts lose, what does that accomplish? They’d go into next season with nothing other than the two 1st rounders and a two year selloff. They’d be in a similar situation to the Petes EXCEPT the Petes won a Championship, not a single round in the playoffs.

There will always be a team, maybe three that take a shot at the east division and at worst the #2 seed. It makes sense to add now for both seeding and team chemistry if the players needed are available.
As far as playoffs go, Brampton could very well be the younger, less playoff experienced, smaller and less physical team in round two matchups.
(If) Brampton can finish ahead of Barrie; and Oshawa is returned Roobroek by the OA cut-off to finish 4th, …Brampton may have pre-maturely used up most of their disposable assets to win one round.

 

[OMG67]

Let’s say hypothetically speaking the fronts play Brantford/oshawa round 2, win and Brampton and Barrie who finish 1 and 4 seeds respectively beat themselves up in the second round- it goes 7 games and Barrie wins. Both upsets in the second round and Kingston gets that home ice round 3. Lots of stuff can happen it’s junior hockey we see big upsets all the time. Point is. If Kingston never puts their chips in then they lose anyways- might as well try and go for it.

If my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bicycle….

 

[frontsfan67]

If my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a bicycle….

If Ottawa didn’t choke they’d be 2022/2023 ohl champions.

 

[OHL4Life]

If Ottawa didn’t choke they’d be 2022 ohl champions.

You cheer for the fronts, I’d be careful on chirping playoff success lol

 

[OMG67]

There will always be a team, maybe three that take a shot at the east division and at worst the #2 seed. It makes sense to add now for both seeding and team chemistry if the players needed are available.
As far as playoffs go, Brampton could very well be the younger, less playoff experienced, smaller and less physical team in round two matchups.

The Petes won because they pushed every chip in with no conscience regarding the following season. Pretty much nothing but 18 and 19 year olds.

Can Kingston do that? No JVV to trade. Unwilling to trade their Lardis (Hopkins). No Robertson, Othmann, Smith, McCoy, Spearing or Simpson level players to start with.

I think this is a situation where throwing the kitchen sink at this team in August is a big mistake. At this stage, let them come out and prove capable before mortgaging the next three years on this team with no emergency brake. It is reckless.

 

[dirty12]

If Ottawa didn’t choke they’d be 2022 ohl champions.

The season Hamilton added McTavish and Xhekaj? They were the only team were serious about adding.
In ‘23, the ‘67s were the 4th best team; Barrie probably wins the east if Veirling does not get knocked out.

 

[OMG67]

If Ottawa didn’t choke they’d be 2022 ohl champions.

Ottawa was below .500 in 2022. If you are referring to 2023, Ottawa needed to be willing to trade Mews and they weren’t. That is my whole point. Kingston will need to be willing to do what you guys are unwilling to do and you don’t have Malhotra to match what the Petes did either. You dont’ have near the same starting cast of top of roster players either. But, somehow you are contenders for the League title in August…. Odd.

The season Hamilton added McTavish and Xhekaj?
In ‘23, the ‘67s were the 4th best team; Barrie probably wins the east if Veirling does not get knocked out.

Ottawa didn’t trade their way into contention that season. They didn’t mortgage their entire future in 2021 or 2023. It is not comparable at all.

For that to be meaningful within the context of this conversation (Kingston this year), would you suggest Kingston is on par with Barrie and Peterborough in 2023 or Hamilton in 2021? Be honest.

 

[dirty12]

The Petes won because they pushed every chip in with no conscience regarding the following season. Pretty much nothing but 18 and 19 year olds.

Can Kingston do that? No JVV to trade. Unwilling to trade their Lardis (Hopkins). No Robertson, Othmann, Smith, McCoy, Spearing or Simpson level players to start with.

I think this is a situation where throwing the kitchen sink at this team in August is a big mistake. At this stage, let them come out and prove capable before mortgaging the next three years on this team with no emergency brake. It is reckless.

The Petes had an incredible forward group, and a suspect defence. They made one very questionable trade in Lardis, Panwar, picks for Hayes and White. Full credit for winning a war of attrition with NB and Barrie.

 

[frontsfan67]

You cheer for the fronts, I’d be careful on chirping playoff success lol

Lol oh I know all about it. Just the same people always come on here and say how bad the fronts are every day and tear down anything they do. Whether you get a 50 win season or a 50 point season- if you don’t win the championship the results are the same

 

[dirty12]

Ottawa was below .500 in 2022. If you are referring to 2023, Ottawa needed to be willing to trade Mews and they weren’t. That is my whole point. Kingston will need to be willing to do what you guys are unwilling to do and you don’t have Malhotra to match what the Petes did either. You dont’ have near the same starting cast of top of roster players either. But, somehow you are contenders for the League title in August…. Odd.



Ottawa didn’t trade their way into contention that season. They didn’t mortgage their entire future in 2021 or 2023. It is not comparable at all.

For that to be meaningful within the context of this conversation (Kingston this year), would you suggest Kingston is on par with Barrie and Peterborough in 2023 or Hamilton in 2021? Be honest.

Hamilton 2021–22, no one was close; every other team seemed cautious with the double cohort.
Peterborough, NB, Barrie, & Ottawa in ‘23; yes.

 

[ScoutLife4]

No. They should wait a couple months into the season to judge whether their team is capable and whether Brampton is living up to the hype. The alternative is to just throw caution to the wind in August…..

So essentially you want them to make the same mistake Ottawa did last season thinking they are contender and making trades at the deadline that don’t make sense? I don’t really understand what you are wanting Kingston to do.
Wait and see and overpay at the deadline?

 

[frontsfan67]

The Petes won because they pushed every chip in with no conscience regarding the following season. Pretty much nothing but 18 and 19 year olds.

Yes and they were 4th going into the playoffs. My whole point is shit happens. Can’t crown a champion in August whether it’s Brampton, Kingston or f’ing niagara. Lots of hockey to be played. Can’t say any moves made in August are horrible without seeing the teams playing yet.

Can Kingston do that? No JVV to trade. Unwilling to trade their Lardis (Hopkins). No Robertson, Othmann, Smith, McCoy, Spearing or Simpson level players to start with.

Spearing? Is this a joke?

I think this is a situation where throwing the sink at this team in August is a big mistake. At this stage, let them come out and prove capable before mortgaging the next three years on this team with no emergency brake. It is reckless.

Think it’s also a situation where we should just relax as it is August and there’s no regular season hockey to be played for a month. Let teams make their trades. There’s no way in hell you can say any trade right now is a bad trade unless you can predict the future.

 

[OMG67]

Lol oh I know all about it. Just the same people always come on here and say how bad the fronts are every day and tear down anything they do. Whether you get a 50 win season or a 50 point season- if you don’t win the championship the results are the same

I’m not saying they are bad. I don’t think anyone has said they are bad. I have said multiple times that i think the Fronts will be a good team. AllI am saying is throwing the kitchen sink at this team in August is irresponsible. They need to prove they are good before the future is completely mortgaged. if the team cannot be very strong in that .625-.650 range with the team they have as of right now, how will trading for more players put them into the .750 range where they will need to be to compete at a high level against other elite level teams?

 

[frontsfan67]

I’m not saying they are bad. I don’t think anyone has said they are bad. I have said multiple times that i think the Fronts will be a good team. AllI am saying is throwing the kitchen sink at this team in August is irresponsible. They need to prove they are good before the future is completely mortgaged. if the team cannot be very strong in that .625-.650 range with the team they have as of right now, how will trading for more players put them into the .750 range where they will need to be to compete at a high level against other elite level teams?

Even if they’re in the .787 range like Ottawa in 2022/23 it doesn’t guarantee a championship. For god sakes the 0.544 Pete’s won the championship. Just let the kids play.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I’m not saying they are bad. I don’t think anyone has said they are bad. I have said multiple times that i think the Fronts will be a good team. AllI am saying is throwing the kitchen sink at this team in August is irresponsible. They need to prove they are good before the future is completely mortgaged. if the team cannot be very strong in that .625-.650 range with the team they have as of right now, how will trading for more players put them into the .750 range where they will need to be to compete at a high level against other elite level teams?

I’m not sure leaving all those picks they got for Frasca shelved is going to bode well with their already unhappy fan base.
Plus I think it leaves a big hole that will affect the team greatly early on.
Essentially trading the unhappy first line forward for picks and waiting and seeing and thinking you contend isn’t exactly a recipe for success.

 

[OMG67]

So essentially you want them to make the same mistake Ottawa did last season thinking they are contender and making trades at the deadline that don’t make sense? I don’t really understand what you are wanting Kingston to do.
Wait and see and overpay at the deadline?

Prove you have a strong team with demonstrated performance on the ice before you throw away assets.

For the record, here is Ottawa’s current draft picks:

2025	NIA 2nd	OS 3rd	PBO 4th NIA 4th	KGN 5th
2026	---	---	---	5th
2027	LDN 2nd	---	4th	---
2028	2nd	3rd	4th	5th

Ottawa has not thrown their future away. They have some blank spots that will get filled in with some OA trades.

We can have the discussion about Ottawa not doing enough in 2023. I would agree. Mews for Wright would have worked better for Kingston than Miedema and clearly Wright added to that Ottawa team would have made a it difference.

Any team that wants to win needs to do three things:
1> Build trade capital
2> Be willing to trade that trade capital
3> Be a really good team with a lot of experienced players

I would argue that Kingston had not built the trade capital. They have now by trading Frasca and Thibodeau but they now have to replace those players production so is that draft capital built by trading those guys put them in a better position?

Weir and Hopkins will need to go. Not willing to trade them? Too bad. They gotta go. You will need the more experienced and higher performing player than Hopkins. So, are they willing to make the difficult trades? Ottawa isn’t. They lost twice because they didn’t. Learn from that.

Are the Fronts a really good team? Be honest. Underachieved last year. Barely over .500. Go out with your current roster and prove you are a good team that SHOULD be added to. I think they are a solid team and could win the division but let’s be real. Peterborough is bad. Ottawa is likely selling or should. Brantford is more likely to make moves to be good next year. Oshawa is likely to graduate too many players but if Ritchie returns, they will likely do what I am suggesting Kingston do. Ice their team. Perform. Prove they have the right core pieces. Then add at the deadline.

I don’t think Kingston has demonstrated capable to the point where they are obvious contenders enough o gobble everything up in the pre-season and expend all or most assets by the first puck drop of the regular season.

 

[dirty12]

Prove you have a strong team with demonstrated performance on the ice before you throw away assets.

For the record, here is Ottawa’s current draft picks:

2025	NIA 2nd	OS 3rd	PBO 4th NIA 4th	KGN 5th
2026	---	---	---	5th
2027	LDN 2nd	---	4th	---
2028	2nd	3rd	4th	5th

Ottawa has not thrown their future away. They have some blank spots that will get filled in with some OA trades.

We can have the discussion about Ottawa not doing enough in 2023. I would agree. Mews for Wright would have worked better for Kingston than Miedema and clearly Wright added to that Ottawa team would have made a it difference.

Any team that wants to win needs to do three things:
1> Build trade capital
2> Be willing to trade that trade capital
3> Be a really good team with a lot of experienced players

I would argue that Kingston had not built the trade capital. They have now by trading Frasca and Thibodeau but they now have to replace those players production so is that draft capital built by trading those guys put them in a better position?

Weir and Hopkins will need to go. Not willing to trade them? Too bad. They gotta go. You will need the more experienced and higher performing player than Hopkins. So, are they willing to make the difficult trades? Ottawa isn’t. They lost twice because they didn’t. Learn from that.

Are the Fronts a really good team? Be honest. Underachieved last year. Barely over .500. Go out with your current roster and prove you are a good team that SHOULD be added to. I think they are a solid team and could win the division but let’s be real. Peterborough is bad. Ottawa is likely selling or should. Brantford is more likely to make moves to be good next year. Oshawa is likely to graduate too many players but if Ritchie returns, they will likely do what I am suggesting Kingston do. Ice their team. Perform. Prove they have the right core pieces. Then add at the deadline.

I don’t think Kingston has demonstrated capable to the point where they are obvious contenders enough o gobble everything up in the pre-season and expend all or most assets by the first puck drop of the regular season.

Teams generally don’t trade the really good 17 yr olds because they help win. If Hopkins, Weir, Vellaris are not helping; gone. Right now, Kingston absolutely should fill the OA spots and use the assets from Frasca and Thibodeau for players better suiting the team.

The Petes were quite a bit worse than Kingston the year before winning. They started to gobble up players at the preceding trade deadline, and continued in pre-season.

 

[OMG67]

Even if they’re in the .787 range like Ottawa in 2022/23 it doesn’t guarantee a championship. For god sakes the 0.544 Pete’s won the championship. Just let the kids play.

Dude, the Petes traded everything not nailed down. They sacrificed the next three seasons. There is a big difference. Plus, EVERYONE had the Petes as the pre-season division winner INCLUDING ME! They were far better than their record. It happens.

The question is, “Are the Fronts right now comparable to the Petes going into the 2022-23 season?” Yes/No? Do they have even remotely as good of the top end pieces the Petes had….AT EVERY POSITION? Goaltending? Vaccari or Simpson? Defence? McCoy, Mayer, Smith, and Spearing vs McGowan, Burns, Uens and Williamson. Forward? Maybe the forward group is somewhat close.

It is time to be real. The Fronts need more than they have the assets to acquire. I can see them add Wakely and a solid D-Man. Anything else of solid value requires Hopkins gone.

In a down season like last season where the Conference is relatively open, I would agree that Kingston has a fair shot. This season? Why not be at least a little cautious and see if there is a landscape that makes sense for the Fronts to mortgage their future. Pick your spots.

Teams generally don’t trade the really good 17 yr olds because they help win. If Hopkins, Weir, Vellaris are not helping; gone.

The Petes were quite a bit worse than Kingston the year before winning. They started to gobble up players at the preceding trade deadline, and continued in pre-season.

Which is why the build up for this season needed to be last season starting with trading Ludwinski….

 

[frontsfan67]

Prove you have a strong team with demonstrated performance on the ice before you throw away assets.

For the record, here is Ottawa’s current draft picks:

2025	NIA 2nd	OS 3rd	PBO 4th NIA 4th	KGN 5th
2026	---	---	---	5th
2027	LDN 2nd	---	4th	---
2028	2nd	3rd	4th	5th

Ottawa has not thrown their future away. They have some blank spots that will get filled in with some OA trades.

We can have the discussion about Ottawa not doing enough in 2023. I would agree. Mews for Wright would have worked better for Kingston than Miedema and clearly Wright added to that Ottawa team would have made a it difference.

Any team that wants to win needs to do three things:
1> Build trade capital
2> Be willing to trade that trade capital
3> Be a really good team with a lot of experienced players

I would argue that Kingston had not built the trade capital. They have now by trading Frasca and Thibodeau but they now have to replace those players production so is that draft capital built by trading those guys put them in a better position?

Works out anyways as those guys wanted out. Mann wants players there that will play for him.

Weir and Hopkins will need to go. Not willing to trade them? Too bad. They gotta go.

Not to compare Hopkins to Tomasino however I believe tomasino refused a trade to Kingston and instead Kingston had to settle for Billy Constantinou and Ian Martin as part of the Jason Robertson trade.

The ice dogs still had one hell of a team that year without trading their future which you have mentioned on here.

How did the porter martone trade work out for sarnia?

Are the Fronts a really good team? Be honest. Underachieved last year. Barely over .500.

The whole east was super tight last year. Ottawa who the fronts finished below last year only managed to win 1 out of 8 games. The difference between 1st and 6th was 9 points. Smaller of a gap then 6th placed Ottawa and 7th placed Kingston(10 points)

The west had 3 teams that had 6 or more points more than Oshawa the east’s first placed team.

 

[frontsfan67]

Dude, the Petes traded everything not nailed down. They sacrificed the next three seasons. There is a big difference. Plus, EVERYONE had the Petes as the pre-season division winner INCLUDING ME! They were far better than their record. It happens.

Not in the regular season that’s for sure. End of the day the 0.544 team won the championship and lots of shit happens here in junior hockey you can’t count out Kingston just because it kingston lol. If you don’t make moves then you definitely won’t win the championship where as if you do make moves even then you still aren’t guaranteed.

Windsor got swept by the 8th seed rangers, the powerhouse 67s lost in the second round to a team that had 33 POINTS less than them!