Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season- Luc/Rob ****Show/ Sell Everyone!! Part 3

[SettlementRichie10]

Trading your star number 1C after 2 cup wins in 3 years is not being a visionary. There are big risks in being what you describe as a visionary, and what I would call stupid. Look at the moves Florida made a few years ago, letting Galant and other players go because they didn’t fit in their new analytics vision. Turned out great for them right?

Or the visionary GM in Arizona who has yet to turn he franchise around.

And what value has keeping Kopitar brought the Kings? Two playoff-less seasons and a first round sweep.

I don't dispute that a Kopitar trade in 2015 would have been absolutely shocking to the hockey world at large. I also agree it's probably unreasonable to expect any GM to make that decision.

But it was still the right thing to do.

 

[AlphaBravo]

And what value has keeping Kopitar brought the Kings? Two playoff-less seasons and a first round sweep.

I don't dispute that a Kopitar trade in 2015 would have been absolutely shocking to the hockey world at large. I also agree it's probably unreasonable to expect any GM to make that decision.

But it was still the right thing to do.

One player doesn’t win you a cup. Look at Edmonton with McDavid. We have only one playoff win in 4 years for other reasons, like lack of skill and depth because DL traded draft picks for more cup runs and because we didn’t finish low in the standings to get high 1sts.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Karlsson was traded in September, so yeah he was a rental for the Sharks since he was un-signed and hits UFA this coming summer.

And Doughty would have been in the SAME situation

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

K17 is a fan and not a GM with his butt in the hot seat if things go wrong. No reasonable GM would trade Kopitar in 2015.

I can spout on this board today that the Penguins should trade Crosby and rebuild, and 4 years from now looking back people may say that move would have been great if Crosby’s play declines, but the Pens GM would never trade Crosby after the back to back cups. In fact, he would be trashed for doing so and no reasonable GM would trade Crosby in 2019.

no, because if we're following the logic, Crosby should have been traded in 2015--recovered from years of injuries, bounced back with 104 points in 80 games, Pens just had several years of failure and couldn't get back over the hump, next to no supporting cast behind Malkin after years of assets shipped out, and clearly his best years were behind him as he was 27, and going to be UFA at 30...surely they couldn't and wouldn't re-sign him until he turned 38, right? That would be stupid? Oh wait....

 

[DoktorJeep]

Some of the arguments on this board are insane. No GM in his right mind trades a 1C coming off of two cup wins in 3 years simply because the team missed the playoffs in 2015, largely because of the Voynov, Richards situations and fatigue.

It’s easy to make these grand proclamations when you have the benefit of looking back, but the GMs have to make decisions based on present facts.

1Cs are very rare and are difficult to get via trades or UFAs. No way was DL or Blake trading Kopitar.

Jason Arnott was a #1 C traded 2 years after leading the devils to a cup at around his 8th year in the league.

 

[Steve Zissou]

I agree with SR10 that the point many are making on here is that we want a visionary GM and not some guy that just does what every other GM has done...

I know it's still 'early', but from what we've heard on recent interviews from Blake makes me think that he didn't study DL enough back in 2007-2010 to really understand that you need that vision of what a team needs to BUILD a winner. Rather, he just took over, thought he could win, and now has to win in the new NHL with a team dead last in the NHL.

I'd love to be wrong in the next 5-6 years, but I don't think Luc and Blake are two visionaries.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Jason Arnott was a #1 C traded 2 years after leading the devils to a cup at around his 8th year in the league.

Um no

Sykora, holi and Gomez all say hi

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Arnott is a weird one, he was traded several times.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Arnott is a weird one, he was traded several times.

Big freaking dude though ran into him in a rink up here about 8 9 years ago

 

[Choralone]

It's worth pointing out that as far as 18/19 is concerned, no one has a worse cap to results ratio than the Kings. They're uniquely bad in this area.

So it's probably better to discuss actual value, both past and potential. It's quite clear that Kopitar's $10 million contract has brought little value to the LA Kings. During the contract's active lifespan, the Kings have:

16/17: Missed the playoffs
17/18: First Round sweep
18/19: Missed the playoffs

That says nothing about Kopitar's "worth" in relation to the contract. It's simply a value judgment. So if Kopitar's current contract carries little to no value, and doesn't project to increase in value, isn't it fair to discuss the hypothetical value of NOT having said contract?

This makes no sense since if you are going to determine value by playoff outcomes, and not by relative contribution to team success - regardless of how mediocre that team success was - then the same criteria applies to every Kings player, coach, trainer, and towel boy.

 

[BigKing]

no, because if we're following the logic, Crosby should have been traded in 2015--recovered from years of injuries, bounced back with 104 points in 80 games, Pens just had several years of failure and couldn't get back over the hump, next to no supporting cast behind Malkin after years of assets shipped out, and clearly his best years were behind him as he was 27, and going to be UFA at 30...surely they couldn't and wouldn't re-sign him until he turned 38, right? That would be stupid? Oh wait....

Your point is taken, however, I don't necessarily care for when Crosby and Ovechkin are used as comparables for Kopitar.

Kopitar is a fantastic player. Love the guy. Two Cups. Jersey in the rafters eventually.

He is not on the level of Crosby and Ovechkin.

 

[KINGS17]

Every decision made by a GM includes an opportunity cost. Most of the posts here went right back to ignoring that aspect of re-signing Kopitar to his 3rd contract, not trading Carter, etc.

As @bland pointed out, it was obvious to some the run was over in the summer of 2015, and this core as a whole would not make another run.

I think that is foresight, and if you are confident that was the case, then you can conceive some of the moves that were discussed.

 

[redcard]

For how many more years are we going to have the same conversation about what we should have done in 2015?

 

[KingPuckChoo]

what sucks is the Hawks have one more cup and are STILL in a better shape than the Kings...

this speaks more about the management we HAD and HAVE than the roster itself

 

[KINGS17]

Your point is taken, however, I don't necessarily care for when Crosby and Ovechkin are used as comparables for Kopitar.

Kopitar is a fantastic player. Love the guy. Two Cups. Jersey in the rafters eventually.

He is not on the level of Crosby and Ovechkin.

...and that is obvious, yet they continue to be used as comparable players. Intellectual dishonesty is my assessment of those type of comparisons.

 

[KingPuckChoo]

...and that is obvious, yet they continue to be used as comparable players. Intellectual dishonesty is my assessment of those type of comparisons.

intellectual dishonesty lol

that's pretty much a human trait

 

[LAKings88]

It was the greatest era of Kings hockey period.

Mistakes were made. Teams don’t last forever.

I’m still glad to have seen Kopi and watch Kopi in one uniform. I hope he retires a King. I also hope he regains his 90 point form. In the least his 70 point form.

Still glad Doughty is a King.

Kopi and Drew are the bridge to the next era.

I will have mixed emotions when Quick goes.

Looking forward to Petersen, Kupari, Luff, JAD, Thomas, and the 19 draft picks.

Intrigued by Durzi, Grundstrom, Anderson, and Clague.

Praying for Vilardi.

Some shrewd moves and a right coach can turn this team around. Not sure how long it will take but I’m optimistic.

 

[BigKing]

what sucks is the Hawks have one more cup and are STILL in a better shape than the Kings...

this speaks more about the management we HAD and HAVE than the roster itself

Hitting on a 2nd round pick like Debrincat is huge. Even though they gave up Panarin, Saad isn't total chopped liver and they were able to pull that off by getting Panarin to sign there in the first place.

Smart move to trade Hartman for a 1st. Got their tank on last season.

Really though, Kane is better than any forward on the Kings. Such an impact player.

 

[Rusty Batch]

It's worth pointing out that as far as 18/19 is concerned, no one has a worse cap to results ratio than the Kings. They're uniquely bad in this area.

I think a better way to frame this overall discussion is value rather than detriment. We're never going to reach common ground re: detriment because 2023 and 2024 are years away with too many variables to objectively account for. The detractor crowd is convinced the Kopitar contract will eventually become a detriment. The apologist crowd is convinced it will not. Impossible to determine until we reach the later years of the contract.

So it's probably better to discuss actual value, both past and potential. It's quite clear that Kopitar's $10 million contract has brought little value to the LA Kings. During the contract's active lifespan, the Kings have:

16/17: Missed the playoffs
17/18: First Round sweep
18/19: Missed the playoffs

That says nothing about Kopitar's "worth" in relation to the contract. It's simply a value judgment. So if Kopitar's current contract carries little to no value, and doesn't project to increase in value, isn't it fair to discuss the hypothetical value of NOT having said contract?

Use that same logic on McDavid and Draisaitl

 

[SettlementRichie10]

One player doesn’t win you a cup. Look at Edmonton with McDavid. We have only one playoff win in 4 years for other reasons, like lack of skill and depth because DL traded draft picks for more cup runs and because we didn’t finish low in the standings to get high 1sts.

You are really missing the point.

The Kings don’t suck BECAUSE of Kopitar. The Kings suck IN SPITE of Kopitar. That’s the f***ing point. Considering his age, cap hit, length of contract, looming rebuild, production remaining relative to incoming youth, etc etc etc ad infinitum, it’s clear the right move would have been to trade him in 2015 and recoup assets.

Call that unreasonable to expect of a GM all you want. That’s fine. It’s a perfectly arguable point. But it doesn’t make trading Kopitar the objectively wrong move.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

jesus christ can you imagine this forum if we gave up panarin for saad for cap reasons

 

[SettlementRichie10]

This makes no sense since if you are going to determine value by playoff outcomes, and not by relative contribution to team success - regardless of how mediocre that team success was - then the same criteria applies to every Kings player, coach, trainer, and towel boy.

It’s a determination of relevant value moreso than value in a vacuum.

Kopitar clearly has value in a vacuum (arguable considering his current contract, but that’s another argument). But that value is clearly useless as the Kings enter a long rebuild.

As I’ve said elsewhere, the Kings don’t suck because of Kopitar. The Kings suck in spite of him. The Kings aren’t going to magically surround him with talent anytime soon, not within at least another 2-3 seasons. Nor is Kopitar going to magically turn back the clock, double in skill, and carry the Kings back to the playoffs.

So what is his purpose on this team?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

...and that is obvious, yet they continue to be used as comparable players. Intellectual dishonesty is my assessment of those type of comparisons.

If you haven't noticed, there's a shortage of elite cup winning 1cs in the cap era

Crosby (Malkin?)
Kopitar
Toews
Bergeron

It's not intellectual dishonesty, it's the reality the situation if you want to talk about Cup team context. Doesn't mean Kopitar is better than Crosby, just means that, I dunno, Backstrom? doesn't really fit the conversation (edit or does he now? he didn't before).

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It’s a determination of relevant value moreso than value in a vacuum.

Kopitar clearly has value in a vacuum (arguable considering his current contract, but that’s another argument). But that value is clearly useless as the Kings enter a long rebuild.

As I’ve said elsewhere, the Kings don’t suck because of Kopitar. The Kings suck in spite of him. The Kings aren’t going to magically surround him with talent anytime soon, not within at least another 2-3 seasons. Nor is Kopitar going to magically turn back the clock, double in skill, and carry the Kings back to the playoffs.

So what is his purpose on this team?

K17 wanted to trade Kopitar for Ryan Johansen.

Is this team better with RyJo at 8 million than Kopitar at 10?

What's the purpose of having a 1C period? Not throwing Vilardi in the fire. Insulation. not being Edmonton.

 

[Scottkmlps]

God it's going to be a long spring & summer around here.