Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season- Luc/Rob ****Show/ Sell Everyone!! Part 3

[bland]

So you think signing Tavares to a contract that expires when he's 34 and directly and immediately puts the team in visible RFA jeopardy is less dangerous than signing Kopitar, who has not and will not hamper LA's ability to field a team around him?

Interesting.

Can you imagine if we oversigned Kopitar to like 16 million in like 2013 and it forced us to lose one of Pearson or Toffoli, for example? That's the position Toronto is now in--minus the winning--with the possibility of losing a more impactful, younger player.

I like Dubas but a lot of people there are drinking the "we're special and they'll make an exception for us" koolaid.

I disagree with the theory that Kopitar doesn't harm the Kings. He actually means nothing to them, it was a collosal waste of money. They were never going to contend over the first half of his deal when he would be worth the money, and by the time that the quality picks they were going to earn due to the inevitable decline turn into viable NHL contracts, he won't be worth anywhere near $10 million per year over the last half of his deal. The only logical choice was to trade him, but they locked him down.

I, as a rule, would rather spend that money on a prime player chasing success than as a reward for previous success that isn't likely to be duplicated.

And no, I don't think losing a scoring winger to keep or acquire a prime elite center is a big deal at all.

 

[funky]

Buyout Dion or scratch him for 82 games next season, this team wont improve with him on it

Can’t buy him out this summer. That leaves 4 years of ugly cap hit on the books. Sit him on the end of the bench for the remainder of the year, and tell his agent to try and find a team over the summer willing to take him because we are no longer going to. He had to have his NMC on his last contract and no one wants him. He made his bed, he is no longer an NHL defenseman.

He has the choice - sit on bench and watch the team or retire.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I'd be less miffed about Wagner, Luff getting 8 minutes a night if Kopitar weren't getting 25. What's the point?

I'm going with the working theory that, despite Brown fully knowing and publicly admitting they're not making it, WD is still coaching to make it. Can't take the coach out of a coach. He'll ride the vets as long as he can. If the team is down in a game, he'll throw the proven guys out there to try and get back in it. If they're somehow up multiple goals, he'll let the young guys get some extra time. It's simple, textbook coaching. Vets get the benefit of the doubt.

I disagree with the theory that Kopitar doesn't harm the Kings. He actually means nothing to them, it was a collosal waste of money. They were never going to contend over the first half of his deal when he would be worth the money, and by the time that the quality picks they were going to earn due to the inevitable decline turn into viable NHL contracts, he won't be worth anywhere near $10 million per year over the last half of his deal. The only logical choice was to trade him, but they locked him down.

Trade him when? Unfortunately, the Kings were having a decent regular season in 15-16, and DL had already traded for Lecavalier in the name of a playoff run, before Kopitar signed his contract. After 14-15, DL doubled down on the Sekera deal by going for Lucic, so even if Kopitar wasn't coming off his worst season up to that point, DL was obviously not looking to trade Kopitar in the summer of 2015.

The only real chance to trade him would've been if they were a bottom 10 team in 15-16. Trade Lucic at the same time. At the 2016 deadline though, the Kings were 1st in the Pacific, 4th in the West, and tied for 6th in the league, only a couple points out of being in the overall top 5. Not many teams are trading their #1C in that scenario, even if he's a UFA, regardless of how smart it would be to do it. It might not even be the GM's call. Whoever sits above the GM might say no, you're not doing that.

Don't just say trade him, pick a time. Are you selling low in June 2015? Selling him as a UFA in Feb 2016 with the team competing? Coming off the high point in June 2014? Off the disappointing individual playoff in 2013? How about in June 2012, when Brown and Quick should've been gone as they've never been as good since?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I'm going with the working theory that, despite Brown fully knowing and publicly admitting they're not making it, WD is still coaching to make it. Can't take the coach out of a coach. He'll ride the vets as long as he can. If the team is down in a game, he'll throw the proven guys out there to try and get back in it. If they're somehow up multiple goals, he'll let the young guys get some extra time. It's simple, textbook coaching. Vets get the benefit of the doubt.



Trade him when? Unfortunately, the Kings were having a decent regular season in 15-16, and DL had already traded for Lecavalier in the name of a playoff run, before Kopitar signed his contract. After 14-15, DL doubled down on the Sekera deal by going for Lucic, so even if Kopitar wasn't coming off his worst season up to that point, DL was obviously not looking to trade Kopitar in the summer of 2015.

The only real chance to trade him would've been if they were a bottom 10 team in 15-16. Trade Lucic at the same time. At the 2016 deadline though, the Kings were 1st in the Pacific, 4th in the West, and tied for 6th in the league, only a couple points out of being in the overall top 5. Not many teams are trading their #1C in that scenario, even if he's a UFA, regardless of how smart it would be to do it. It might not even be the GM's call. Whoever sits above the GM might say no, you're not doing that.

Don't just say trade him, pick a time. Are you selling low in June 2015? Selling him as a UFA in Feb 2016 with the team competing? Coming off the high point in June 2014? Off the disappointing individual playoff in 2013? How about in June 2012, when Brown and Quick should've been gone as they've never been as good since?

I'm gonna say Kopitar, Brown, and Quick should have been dealt between 2009 and 2012, could have gotten some MASSIVE players for him, I'm talking 1st round picks that could have produced gems like Brandon Gormley, Duncan Siemens, and Griffin Reinhart.....

Kings surely would have won the cup with those guys being young and all...

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I'm gonna say Kopitar, Brown, and Quick should have been dealt between 2009 and 2012, could have gotten some MASSIVE players for him, I'm talking 1st round picks that could have produced gems like Brandon Gormley, Duncan Siemens, and Griffin Reinhart.....

Kings surely would have won the cup with those guys being young and all...

As a sidenote,

I think we need to trade Kupari, Petersen and Clague either this off-season or next off-season, because at one point in time, they might not be worth the contract that we give them, so to avoid that....it's easier to deal them for studs like 1st round pick, I heard he was killer.

 

[bland]

I'm going with the working theory that, despite Brown fully knowing and publicly admitting they're not making it, WD is still coaching to make it. Can't take the coach out of a coach. He'll ride the vets as long as he can. If the team is down in a game, he'll throw the proven guys out there to try and get back in it. If they're somehow up multiple goals, he'll let the young guys get some extra time. It's simple, textbook coaching. Vets get the benefit of the doubt.



Trade him when? Unfortunately, the Kings were having a decent regular season in 15-16, and DL had already traded for Lecavalier in the name of a playoff run, before Kopitar signed his contract. After 14-15, DL doubled down on the Sekera deal by going for Lucic, so even if Kopitar wasn't coming off his worst season up to that point, DL was obviously not looking to trade Kopitar in the summer of 2015.

The only real chance to trade him would've been if they were a bottom 10 team in 15-16. Trade Lucic at the same time. At the 2016 deadline though, the Kings were 1st in the Pacific, 4th in the West, and tied for 6th in the league, only a couple points out of being in the overall top 5. Not many teams are trading their #1C in that scenario, even if he's a UFA, regardless of how smart it would be to do it. It might not even be the GM's call. Whoever sits above the GM might say no, you're not doing that.

Don't just say trade him, pick a time. Are you selling low in June 2015? Selling him as a UFA in Feb 2016 with the team competing? Coming off the high point in June 2014? Off the disappointing individual playoff in 2013? How about in June 2012, when Brown and Quick should've been gone as they've never been as good since?

He should have been traded as a pending UFA. I argued for that for a full year before he signed his extension because it was clear to me (and several others) that the Cup window had closed when they missed the playoffs in 2015. Others felt that they deserved another run, and there were a ton of civil and uncivil discussions here and elsewhere at that time.

 

[Rusty Batch]

He should have been traded as a pending UFA. I argued for that for a full year before he signed his extension because it was clear to me (and several others) that the Cup window had closed when they missed the playoffs in 2015. Others felt that they deserved another run, and there were a ton of civil and uncivil discussions here and elsewhere at that time.

Man i dont think you maximize his value at that point, trading him as a rental. The Time to trade him would have been prior to this season after his HART nomination and Selke season, with a contract signed.

 

[DoktorJeep]

The standard for the usage of Kopitar, Carter and Brown has been set in stone by Desjardins. He is just doing the needful and playing the top stars because they’ve earned the minutes based on past performance.

Just another face saving move because to demote the stars would send another negative message in a disaster season. The benefit of potentially accelerating prospect development through OJT at the NHL level is completely outweighed by the risk of a headline “Kopitar benched in the 3rd period during blowout loss”

 

[bland]

Man i dont think you maximize his value at that point, trading him as a rental. The Time to trade him would have been prior to this season after his HART nomination and Selke season, with a contract signed.

None of these decisions happen in a vacuum, there are a variety of factors that have to be considered. Of course Anze is the type of player who is worthy of and deserved a max contract. But, the Kings were in a poor position to offer that deal as it was becoming increasingly obvious that they had no cost controlled talent on the horizon to supplement the huge amount of cap space they were alotting just to retain players already on the team.

As cap space dwindled, so did the asset list as more and more picks and prospects were dealt on short term cheap returns to try and chase that third Cup. They had very little hope of getting back up to that level and they were contracting themselves into a corner.

That's why posts like goldenbearhockey's above are so laughable. They look at situations as cut and dried and separate from more complicated and nuanced issues, and that kind of thinking always fails.

 

[Rusty Batch]

If you "demote the stars" you have nothing left. Who else has earned the PT. Most of this roster is AHL caliber. We literally can pick up a guy like Leipsic from waivers and hes instantly one of our better wingers. The roster is a joke.

 

[Rusty Batch]

None of these decisions happen in a vacuum, there are a variety of factors that have to be considered. Of course Anze is the type of player who is worthy of and deserved a max contract. But, the Kings were in a poor position to offer that deal as it was becoming increasingly obvious that they had no cost controlled talent on the horizon to supplement the huge amount of cap space they were alotting just to retain players already on the team.

As cap space dwindled, so did the asset list as more and more picks and prospects were dealt on short term cheap returns to try and chase that third Cup. They had very little hope of getting back up to that level and they were contracting themselves into a corner.

That's why posts like goldenbearhockey's above are so laughable. They look at situations as cut and dried and separate from more complicated and nuanced issues, and that kind of thinking always fails.

I don't know what your referencing by quoting me. My point was that the logical time to trade him would have been prior to this season if you are in that "we should have traded Kopitar camp" which im not.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I'm gonna say Kopitar, Brown, and Quick should have been dealt between 2009 and 2012, could have gotten some MASSIVE players for him, I'm talking 1st round picks that could have produced gems like Brandon Gormley, Duncan Siemens, and Griffin Reinhart.....

Kings surely would have won the cup with those guys being young and all...

This kind of childish hyperbole is exactly what people audible to when they have nothing intelligent to say.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

This kind of childish hyperbole is exactly what people audible to when they have nothing intelligent to say.

Or, when they want to point out how idiotic the idea was to begin with,

Again, I keep asking...no one can show me....SHOW ME....where a #1 C, top 5 position in the league, under 30, has been traded, either as a UFA, or signed....at any time during the cap era, without extinguishing circumstances, ala Karlsson and knowing he wasn't going to resign etc...

Please...show me that....then you can talk "intelligently" how they should have traded a top 10 player in the LEAGUE a year after they won the cup....

 

[crassbonanza]

This kind of childish hyperbole is exactly what people audible to when they have nothing intelligent to say.

Yeah, they either do that or they start accusing everyone of using strawmen...

 

[KingPuckChoo]

Can’t buy him out this summer. That leaves 4 years of ugly cap hit on the books. Sit him on the end of the bench for the remainder of the year, and tell his agent to try and find a team over the summer willing to take him because we are no longer going to. He had to have his NMC on his last contract and no one wants him. He made his bed, he is no longer an NHL defenseman.

He has the choice - sit on bench and watch the team or retire.

they better buy him out
i don't even want him to be an emergency roster fill in
the cap isn't as bad as you make it sound

Year 1 $2.9m
Year 2 $5.4m
Year 3 $1.4m
Year 4 $1.4m

Year 1-3-4 is ok, and we don't have any stud player that need a salary increase, that dead weight won't affect the Kings the next two seasons

Blake could have retooled the team, but he chose to destroy it - meaning if you have hope that the Kings will be a competitive team within two seasons, i'm sorry for you

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

None of these decisions happen in a vacuum, there are a variety of factors that have to be considered. Of course Anze is the type of player who is worthy of and deserved a max contract. But, the Kings were in a poor position to offer that deal as it was becoming increasingly obvious that they had no cost controlled talent on the horizon to supplement the huge amount of cap space they were alotting just to retain players already on the team.

As cap space dwindled, so did the asset list as more and more picks and prospects were dealt on short term cheap returns to try and chase that third Cup. They had very little hope of getting back up to that level and they were contracting themselves into a corner.

That's why posts like goldenbearhockey's above are so laughable. They look at situations as cut and dried and separate from more complicated and nuanced issues, and that kind of thinking always fails.

But you're helping illustrate my point--Kopitar's contract was never a problem and it was never a surprise. It didn't hamper them from signing anyone and, as per your examples, the real problem was the lack of talent in the system due to a purge of assets trying to stay on top. How did they 'contract themselves into a corner?' 2/3 of the league is within 5 million of the upper cap limit, that's not a Kings-exclusive concern.

Signing that contract didn't make us less competitive, it isn't stopping us from being competitive now, and it's very unlikely as per illustrations to even be a fraction of an issue in the future.

As I said before, Kopitar can be a scapegoat for any number of reasons, this is simply a search for an additional reason but it's totally irrational.

 

[deaderhead28]

Maybe some of these players dont care about the tank due to pride and want to win and get possible player performance money?Hell they probably want to help their stats for future contracts.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Rookies need to earn ice time and not be handed roster spots or they’ll never learn how to be gritty or something.

21 year old Kale Clague needs to stand out in camp while fighting for minutes to prove to everyone he deserves a spot over Phaneuf, who will be sheltered.

 

[YP44]

they better buy him out
i don't even want him to be an emergency roster fill in
the cap isn't as bad as you make it sound

Year 1 $2.9m
Year 2 $5.4m
Year 3 $1.4m
Year 4 $1.4m

Year 1-3-4 is ok, and we don't have any stud player that need a salary increase, that dead weight won't affect the Kings the next two seasons

Blake could have retooled the team, but he chose to destroy it - meaning if you have hope that the Kings will be a competitive team within two seasons, i'm sorry for you

If we can hold out a year than the cap hit would be

Year 1 $5M
Year 2 $1M

Let Dion sit in the press box for a year and then buy out next year would be my preference

 

[volcom92886]

they better buy him out
i don't even want him to be an emergency roster fill in
the cap isn't as bad as you make it sound

Year 1 $2.9m
Year 2 $5.4m
Year 3 $1.4m
Year 4 $1.4m

Year 1-3-4 is ok, and we don't have any stud player that need a salary increase, that dead weight won't affect the Kings the next two seasons

Blake could have retooled the team, but he chose to destroy it - meaning if you have hope that the Kings will be a competitive team within two seasons, i'm sorry for you

The cap hit will actually be less as the Senators are responsible for 25% of it

 

[KingPuckChoo]

The cap hit will actually be less as the Senators are responsible for 25% of it

ok well i wasn't sure if the system calculates his entire contract or just the LA portion

but if it is less than what is written, then GREEN FLAG that shit and buy him the f*** out asap !

 

[YP44]

The cap hit will actually be less as the Senators are responsible for 25% of it

I don't think so. I think the capfriendly calculator only takes LA's portion. If LA buys him out Ottawa is still on the hook for $1.75M for 2 more years.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Or, when they want to point out how idiotic the idea was to begin with,

Again, I keep asking...no one can show me....SHOW ME....where a #1 C, top 5 position in the league, under 30, has been traded, either as a UFA, or signed....at any time during the cap era, without extinguishing circumstances, ala Karlsson and knowing he wasn't going to resign etc...

Please...show me that....then you can talk "intelligently" how they should have traded a top 10 player in the LEAGUE a year after they won the cup....

What is an "extinguishing" circumstance? Do you mean "extenuating"?

I've repeatedly asked you to present a single example of a contending team with 10% of their cap tied up in a 34 year or older player. You can't, because there isn't one. All of these discussions revolve around unprecedented situations.

What you're doing here is an extravagant appeal to authority. No team has traded a 28 year old prime #1 center; you're right. And that has little bearing on what the Kings SHOULD have done in 2015 other than to illustrate a breaking of precedent. Before 2012, no #8 seed had ever won the Cup. By this logic, the Kings should not have won in 2012. Before 2005, no Slovenian had ever played in the NHL. By this logic, the Kings should have passed on drafting Kopitar. Do you see where this starts to break down? Precedent ALONE doesn't matter when we veer into the weeds of normative claims and value judgments. We understand we are advocating for a radical, unprecedented decision to have been made. A judgment being radical and unprecedented doesn't automatically discredit it.

All we can objectively know is this: the Kings have not contended under Kopitar's current contract.

It appears likely - though obviously and objectively uncertain - that the Kings will not contend for the duration of Kopitar's current contract.

Therefore, it's entirely fair for people to start questioning the value of that contract. Denigrating this discussion - which is indeed a worthwhile discussion - with hyperbole about trading Kopitar pre-2012 is childish and useless banter.

If you want to actually participate, make a value judgment and support it. What value has Kopitar's contract brought to the Kings? What value will it continue to bring to the Kings?

 

[Fat Elvis]

I think Blake saying that the ice time was going to be earned was just Water Cooler spit balling. The thought probably entered his concussed mind and he went blank, but the words came out. Not doubt he has no recollection of saying such a thing. WD obviously didn't get the memo, nor does he have the intellect to comprehend such an out-of-box suggestion. "earned ice time"? What the hell is that?

 

[SettlementRichie10]

But you're helping illustrate my point--Kopitar's contract was never a problem and it was never a surprise. It didn't hamper them from signing anyone and, as per your examples, the real problem was the lack of talent in the system due to a purge of assets trying to stay on top. How did they 'contract themselves into a corner?' 2/3 of the league is within 5 million of the upper cap limit, that's not a Kings-exclusive concern.

Signing that contract didn't make us less competitive, it isn't stopping us from being competitive now, and it's very unlikely as per illustrations to even be a fraction of an issue in the future.

As I said before, Kopitar can be a scapegoat for any number of reasons, this is simply a search for an additional reason but it's totally irrational.

It's worth pointing out that as far as 18/19 is concerned, no one has a worse cap to results ratio than the Kings. They're uniquely bad in this area.

I think a better way to frame this overall discussion is value rather than detriment. We're never going to reach common ground re: detriment because 2023 and 2024 are years away with too many variables to objectively account for. The detractor crowd is convinced the Kopitar contract will eventually become a detriment. The apologist crowd is convinced it will not. Impossible to determine until we reach the later years of the contract.

So it's probably better to discuss actual value, both past and potential. It's quite clear that Kopitar's $10 million contract has brought little value to the LA Kings. During the contract's active lifespan, the Kings have:

16/17: Missed the playoffs
17/18: First Round sweep
18/19: Missed the playoffs

That says nothing about Kopitar's "worth" in relation to the contract. It's simply a value judgment. So if Kopitar's current contract carries little to no value, and doesn't project to increase in value, isn't it fair to discuss the hypothetical value of NOT having said contract?