KHL and the World Cup (Mod warning post 355)

[SanDogBrewin]

Of course it is.

As for the rest of your drivel: every country at the WHC gets the chance to host the sf & finals, including Canada and the USA. That's fair. On the other hand only two countries at the WCup get the chance to host the sf and finals. That's not fair. Both competitions are held to the same standard, one meets the standard and the other does not.

That being a double standard. It's not ok to come over to North America for a tournament but expect to have North American teams come over every year.

 

[jekoh]

That being a double standard. It's not ok to come over to North America for a tournament but expect to have North American teams come over year.

Who says it's not ok to go to NA? It's ok, just not all the time.

NA teams come to Europe, not because they are denied the right to host, but because they decide not host. That is certainly a problem, but it's one of their own making.

You're the one applying a double standard here.

 

[Jussi]

Every WHC, except 2, have been on European or Russian soil the past 52 years.

How is it unfair to have the semis and finals in North America ?

Completely false comparison. Canada/World Cup has always been organized by the NHL where they essentially decide where the games are played. World Championship hosting requires application. It is not possible to apply for World Cup hosting.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Who says it's not ok to go to NA? It's ok, just not all the time.

NA teams come to Europe, not because they are denied the right to host, but because they decide not host. That is certainly a problem, but it's one of their own making.

You've already been asked but danced around it. The NHL playoffs are going on, nothing to do with not wanting or not wanting to host.

I hope that the World cup comes back around and I don't think it is a lot to ask for teams from over seas to come over for two games. I doubt Finland had a problem playing for Gold in 2004.

 

[Jussi]

Any chance this gets held in February (2015 or 2016)?

The last reported story(I think it was Globe and Mail) on this from late 2012 indicated NHL were planning to hold it in February. 2015 is naturally too soon, so 2016 was the year mentioned and the biggest reason was wanting to avoid closeness to the Rio Olympics. It would be held exclusively in NA with NHL and PA sharing the revenue. Of course holding it in February would make the owners claims of Olympics disturbing the NHL season and adding injury fears hypocritical but when has the league or PA ever used common sense/logic? In previous thread about the subject I brought up how that period would make it even harder to get Europeans on board since the regular seasons of their domestic leagues are almost ending around then. Everyone's fine with doing so because of the Olympics but not with a tournament that doesn't have any modern day prestige and they wouldn't get any benefit from

 

[Jussi]

You've already been asked but danced around it. The NHL playoffs are going on, nothing to do with not wanting or not wanting to host.

I hope that the World cup comes back around and I don't think it is a lot to ask for teams from over seas to come over for two games. I doubt Finland had a problem playing for Gold in 2004.

How about Canada and USA come to Europe?

 

[The Bad Guy*]

They do every year.

 

[Jussi]

They do every year.

Because they have not applied to host it.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Because they have not applied to host it.

What difference does that make to what some people are saying?

If certain teams can go overseas to a tournament each and every year what is the big problem with some teams going overseas to a tournament every 4 years?

I would like for the World cup to be rotated also but even if it never is, traveling overseas does not seem to be a big deal since two teams are doing it every year anyway.

Who bids for what is not the point,that is another issue.It is the groaning and moaning over the travel is what perplexes me.

 

[Xokkeu]

How about Canada and USA come to Europe?

You mean like every year for the Worlds, and two of the last three olympics?

I think we've more than proved we are willing to travel.


Kind of weird why people are *****ing about a tournament that hasn't even announced a format yet.

 

[xxxx]

I'm not sure I get your point here, but the fact is that Russia, Finland, the Czechs and Slovaks all had substantial numbers of KHL'ers on their Olympic roster. By 2016, there could very well be more. And the KHL has absolutely zero incentive to cooperate with this.

How many NHL players could be on the top team's World Cup rosters:

Canada - 100 %
USA - 100 %
Sweden - 90 - 100 %
Russia - 60 - 80 %
Czechs - 70 - 95 %
Slovakia - 40 - 60 %
Finland - 50 - 70 %

That's like 75 - 90 % overall. Definitely rather closer to 85 % than to 75 %. The actual reality could be around 82%.

 

[PurpleMouse]

As has been discussed before, there is a perception now that because Canada is strong enough, based on consecutive Olympic Golds, why would there be a need or desire for a tournament in which Canada has far greater advantages in every sense, with every element that is a factor falling in their favor, to offer any suspense to the non-Canadian fan. There is no doubt an interest in the best players competing, but not under circumstances in which an even sub-standard Canadian effort is almost sure to produce a win. It would be seen as a competition for 2nd and 3rd place, and who really gives a **** about that?

I seem to recall Canada not winning in 1981 and 1996...

By all means everything should be done to involve the European leagues and the tournament will miss something if they aren't involved, but I suppose even if you can't get their participation you might as well hold it because it will still be high quality hockey and make money (ie, same as the WHC, but even higher quality)... just won't be a 100% accurate measure of who the best truly is. Of course, if you're Russia, and you win this World Cup without your KHL guys... well you probably can say you're the best!

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I seem to recall Canada not winning in 1981 and 1996...

By all means everything should be done to involve the European leagues and the tournament will miss something if they aren't involved, but I suppose even if you can't get their participation you might as well hold it because it will still be high quality hockey and make money (ie, same as the WHC, but even higher quality)... just won't be a 100% accurate measure of who the best truly is. Of course, if you're Russia, and you win this World Cup without your KHL guys... well you probably can say you're the best!

They won't be able to say they are the best with or without KHL guys.

It's not IIHF sanctioned.

 

[Xokkeu]

I seem to recall Canada not winning in 1981 and 1996...

By all means everything should be done to involve the European leagues and the tournament will miss something if they aren't involved, but I suppose even if you can't get their participation you might as well hold it because it will still be high quality hockey and make money (ie, same as the WHC, but even higher quality)... just won't be a 100% accurate measure of who the best truly is. Of course, if you're Russia, and you win this World Cup without your KHL guys... well you probably can say you're the best!

I think if the KHL and IIHF don't want in, it'd be more fun and worthwhile to just do a seven game series between the US and Canada. Rename it the Canada Cup again, or whatever anybody wants to call it, other than the World Cup.

 

[Xokkeu]

How many NHL players could be on the top team's World Cup rosters:

Canada - 100 %
USA - 100 %
Sweden - 90 - 100 %
Russia - 60 - 80 %
Czechs - 70 - 95 %
Slovakia - 40 - 60 %
Finland - 50 - 70 %

That's like 75 - 90 % overall. Definitely rather closer to 85 % than to 75 %. The actual reality could be around 82%.

Why just make up numbers when you have a perfect sample size from a few months ago with the rosters from the Olympics?

Russia 16 of 25
Slovakia 11 of 25
Finland 14 of 25
Czechs 16 of 25
Sweden 24 of 25


64%
44%
56%
64%
96%

So the total is 65%

 

[Canuckistani]

It's not IIHF sanctioned.

Who cares?

It's the quality of hockey that matters, not which suits signed off on it.

If the best players are on the ice I don't care if it's organized by the KHL, TSN or the Red Cross.

 

[Lollipop]

You mean like every year for the Worlds, and two of the last three olympics?

I think we've more than proved we are willing to travel.


Kind of weird why people are *****ing about a tournament that hasn't even announced a format yet.

Once again, bid to host WHC. If Canada and USA don't bid then they will not host WHC.

How can NA fans even compare two countries with a whole continent???

It's not more fair to two countries to host Canada cup every single time than 11 different countries to host WHC.

We know that Canada will host the medal rounds and Eli, have like all Canadian referees in their games. What else is new?

 

[jekoh]

You've already been asked but danced around it. The NHL playoffs are going on, nothing to do with not wanting or not wanting to host.

I've said it already: the fact the arenas are unavailable is still a problem of NA's own making.

You can't demand a 'compensation' for it as you do below :

I hope that the World cup comes back around and I don't think it is a lot to ask for teams from over seas to come over for two games.

It's not a lot to ask for NA teams to come over to Europe for the later stages of the WCup either.

Plus it could be argued that you already got the compensation when you were awarded every other WJC.

What difference does that make to what some people are saying?

It makes all the difference. If Canada were forbidden to host the WHC, they would have every right to keep the WCup for themselves as a 'compensation'.

But that's not what is happening.

Canada's unwillingness to host the WHC should not diminish the frequency with which Russia gets to host another event, namely the WCup. Yet that's exactly what you are demanding.

 

[jekoh]

Kind of weird why people are *****ing about a tournament that hasn't even announced a format yet.

Since pretty much every NA here seems to regard it as normal and fair for NA to host the WCup finals every time, as some kind of compensation for the self-inflicted forfeiting of Canada's and the USA's right to host the WCh, it's not too far-fetched to assume the finals will continue to indeed be hosted in NA.

 

[xxxx]

Why just make up numbers when you have a perfect sample size from a few months ago with the rosters from the Olympics?

Russia 16 of 25
Slovakia 11 of 25
Finland 14 of 25
Czechs 16 of 25
Sweden 24 of 25


64%
44%
56%
64%
96%
100%
100%

So the total is 65%

Hm. The toal is 75% because you didn't count Canada and USA.

You can't compare the Sochi olympics (played on big ice) with World Cup (played on NHL ice). Is pretty clear that the european teams might have even more NHLers just because it's played on NHL ice. On top of that, some Slovak and Finnish NHL players were young in Sochi time, but might very well crack the team in 2016. Btw, I believe it was said in media that Hudler and Hejda didn't make the Czech olympic team also because of european ice.

 

[Theokritos]

If certain teams can go overseas to a tournament each and every year what is the big problem with some teams going overseas to a tournament every 4 years?

No problem, as long as you're fine with the World Cup having the same reputation as the IIHF World Championship: ignored on one side of the Atlantic, mixed feelings on the other. Personally I think they should aim for something higher, so that's the problem I have with it.

 

[Macman]

I've said it already: the fact the arenas are unavailable is still a problem of NA's own making.

Yes, how stupid of the NHL to not know this was going to be a problem when it formed 23 years before the first worlds were ever held.

 

[jekoh]

Yes, how stupid of the NHL to not know this was going to be a problem when it formed 23 years before the first worlds were ever held.

How stupid of the NHL to not have fixed this problem in the 90 years since the first Worlds were held.

And it's not like the NHL even needed to end their season any earlier than they originally did, as the Worlds have been pushed back two months since the 1960s.

 

[patnyrnyg]

First of all, who said that the NHL is the top hockey league in the world? You? Me? ViD? It's just our opinion. There's nothing that can "scientifically" say that the NHL is the top hockey league in the world.
And even if we can find one, it's just a private league organized by private people for private profit. The IIHF is an international board.

haha, this post is funny.

Russia should WANT the tourney after the KHL starts and should WANT the KHL to hold their players back. Gives them their excuse when they do not win.

 

[JackSlater]

How stupid of the NHL to not have fixed this problem in the 90 years since the first Worlds were held.

You keep saying that it is a Canada/USA problem, but now it is up to the NHL to fix the problem. Canada/USA and their federations do not control the NHL. Whose problem is it?

In the technical sense it is true that Canada and USA are not forbidden from hosting the WC. In fact, judging by 2008 I would guess that the IIHF would be strongly in favour of holding the tournament in NA far more often. To imply though that Canada and USA are in the same situation as European nations and that the problem is of their own creation is disingenuous. The IIHF schedules their tournament at a time when the biggest and strongest hockey league, by far, is playing its playoffs, and in the two largest, by far, hockey playing nations. It is unrealistic to just say that the NHL, which for North Americans is literally many times more significant that the IIHF has ever been, should bend over and comply with what the IIHF likes. Likewise, it is not reasonable to expect the IIHF to do exactly what the NHL wants. There's a stalemate here that obviously will not be resolved.

All of the above said, I don't see what World Championship hosting has to do with the World Cup. The odds are stacked against North America hosting the World Championship, and that situation is not going to be remedied any time soon. For now, the World Cup basically does not even allow for a European country to function as host (as in host the finals). The World Cup should attempt to rectify that problem, not because of something as pointless as World Championship hosting, but because it would be better. I am guessing that the IIHF would be willing to work on that, but I'm doubtful that the NHL is, so that is unfortunate and it is on the NHL.