KHL and the World Cup (Mod warning post 355)

[jekoh]

No, the elimination round is not always held in Canada, as you initially claimed. It's been held in Finland, Sweden, USA and Canada.

Yes, it has always been held in Canada.

I don't see how it being held in the USA precludes it from being held in Canada as well.

 

[Canuckistani]

Yes, it has always been held in Canada.

I don't see how it being held in the USA precludes it from being held in Canada as well.

Every tournament, yes. Every game, no.

 

[Exarz]

Are the WJC's the world championship of senior mens hockey? in other words, the pinnacle of hockey played in the world?

If you can't see the difference here I don't know what to tell you.

Has Europe even made a bid to get a World cup of hockey if it is played?

why don't they try that instead of just hogging all the world championships every year for themselves.

The reason the WHC is rarely hosted in Canada is because they host the WJC almost every second year.

If the WJC was more spread out like the WHC, then Canada would probably host more tournaments on senior lever.

Also, didn't know you could "bid" to get the World Cup

 

[jekoh]

As for the NHL being the only decision-maker? Come on, that's what negotiations are for. Nobody was hog-tied into going to the Canada Cup and I doubt anyone will be hog-tied into going to a revamped World Cup, if it happens.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say or how it is relevant to previous posts. As long as the NHL is the organizer, they have the last say so the deck is stacked in NA's favour, and negotiations will not change that unless an international organization becomes the organizer.

It not Canada's or Luxembourg's fault either.

In the case of Canada it certainly is. You have more than enough arenas but have decided to use them for something else. This added difficulty is of you own making.

Every tournament, yes. Every game, no.

I didn't say "every game".

 

[Exarz]

Yes, it has always been held in Canada.

I don't see how it being held in the USA precludes it from being held in Canada as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_World_Cup_of_Hockey#Quarter-finals

 

[Thesensation19*]

It is widely recognized that though the sport of football was played globally, nothing helped the popularity of it as much as The Champions League did in Europe when it initiated. It helped grow the game because it forced two cities/countries to defend their beloved teams so they can call their teams the best in the world.

It was known at first as The European Championships. Real Madrid won the first 5 titles. Hardly a fraction of the countries today stood a chance at competing in the tournament, let alone winning it. 1 team from every one of the biggest countries in Europe in football.
Even though Real Madrid dominated the game, it didnt stop other teams in different parts of the world. It helped burn their fire. More teams became interested, more countries grew to love the sport in a deeper passion. More teams became intrigued with simply winning it all. And the game and competition grew.

What was was 20 teams even possible of competing at such a level now has 64 teams and group stages. Much more that try to qualify. And every continent grew to adopt such a tournament knowing it was the best thing for the future of the sport.


So what does a World Championship of Hockey do? It helps grow the sport.
Whats the worst that can happen? NHL wins the tournament?
So maybe they win 5 tournaments in a row. How many years you figure until one team in Europe gets fed up with the losing to American/Canadian teams and a team from the KHL wins it. Then other leagues start getting better. The NHL grows because it has to try to keep its reign or fight back for its title of BEST IN THE WORLD. It inspires new kids to play the sport because now several countries are involved. This isnt country vs country so to say, where patriotism comes around and a few extra thousand people pay attention. This is home grown local team love vs home grown local team love. Thats the right way to inspire kids to play.

NHL has a chance to grow the game on a more international level. Europe as well. Asia has every right in the next few years to be aspired to keep growing its hockey so it can one day lift the WC trophy. That is what its about.


Nothing wrong with the World Cup either. Since when do we get sick of hockey?

 

[jekoh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_World_Cup_of_Hockey#Quarter-finals

I see Canada mentioned as a venue. Don't you?

 

[aphyro]

It is widely recognized that though the sport of football was played globally, nothing helped the popularity of it as much as The Champions League did in Europe when it initiated. It helped grow the game because it forced two cities/countries to defend their beloved teams so they can call their teams the best in the world.

It was known at first as The European Championships. Real Madrid won the first 5 titles. Hardly a fraction of the countries today stood a chance at competing in the tournament, let alone winning it. 1 team from every one of the biggest countries in Europe in football.
Even though Real Madrid dominated the game, it didnt stop other teams in different parts of the world. It helped burn their fire. More teams became interested, more countries grew to love the sport in a deeper passion. More teams became intrigued with simply winning it all. And the game and competition grew.

What was was 20 teams even possible of competing at such a level now has 64 teams and group stages. Much more that try to qualify. And every continent grew to adopt such a tournament knowing it was the best thing for the future of the sport.


So what does a World Championship of Hockey do? It helps grow the sport.
Whats the worst that can happen? NHL wins the tournament?
So maybe they win 5 tournaments in a row. How many years you figure until one team in Europe gets fed up with the losing to American/Canadian teams and a team from the KHL wins it. Then other leagues start getting better. The NHL grows because it has to try to keep its reign or fight back for its title of BEST IN THE WORLD. It inspires new kids to play the sport because now several countries are involved. This isnt country vs country so to say, where patriotism comes around and a few extra thousand people pay attention. This is home grown local team love vs home grown local team love. Thats the right way to inspire kids to play.

NHL has a chance to grow the game on a more international level. Europe as well. Asia has every right in the next few years to be aspired to keep growing its hockey so it can one day lift the WC trophy. That is what its about.


Nothing wrong with the World Cup either. Since when do we get sick of hockey?

And is a damn good way to start riots aswell!

 

[Canuckistani]

The reason the WHC is rarely hosted in Canada is because they host the WJC almost every second year.

If the WJC was more spread out like the WHC, then Canada would probably host more tournaments on senior lever.

Actually it isn't so much a trade-off as it is Canada wanting to host the WJC way more than Europe does. It's a major (albeit TSN-generated) event, in contrast to the WHC which was only held here in 2008 as part of the 100th anniversary of the IIHF.

Plus the IIHF is more than happy to have WJCs in Canada because the attendance is amazing even for non-Canada games. It's only in recent years that interest has somewhat picked up in Europe.

 

[Exarz]

I see Canada mentioned as a venue. Don't you?

But it was their home game. Shouldn't the winner of the group have the home game advantage?

 

[Exarz]

Actually it isn't so much a trade-off as it is Canada wanting to host the WJC way more than Europe does. It's a major (albeit TSN-generated) event, in contrast to the WHC which was only held here in 2008 as part of the 100th anniversary of the IIHF.

Plus the IIHF is more than happy to have WJCs in Canada because the attendance is amazing even for non-Canada games. It's only in recent years that interest has somewhat picked up in Europe.

Exactly, but my point was that if Canada didn't host all the WJC's, they would probably apply for hosting the senior World Championship more often instead!

 

[Macman]

Exactly, but my point was that if Canada didn't host all the WJC's, they would probably apply for hosting the senior World Championship more often instead!

Where? What cities?

 

[JackSlater]

Lol this discussion about the legacy of a tournament is really funny...

Why don't i see this **** from the Swedish fans in mma or any other countery when our fighters is over to USA and Canada and fighting... and the refs is all americans and the scoring jug aswell...

and the best is ther is american company who hostes it...

so this talk about hockey isnt corupted give me a break... stop whine like little girls or just shut up about that.

You didn't know? It wouldn't be acceptable in soccer, so it shouldn't be acceptable in ice soccer, or as some of us call it, "hockey".

Anyway, if you want the KHL etc to join in, give the SF and F to Europe and North America alternatingly.

Exactly. It should alternate between NA and Europe, until some other countries in another continent become legitimate hockey nations. The NHL isn't going to do that unfortunately, but it would be ideal. In fact, it would be better than the Olympics going to Japan, Italy, South Korea etc.

Exactly, but my point was that if Canada didn't host all the WJC's, they would probably apply for hosting the senior World Championship more often instead!

Canada's biggest arenas all have the potential to be in use for the NHL playoffs, taking them out of the equation. Quebec City has the potential for now, probably Hamilton too, but that's basically it. Canada showed little interest in biding for the tournament even before the WJ started popping up in Canada every three years.

 

[jekoh]

But it was their home game. Shouldn't the winner of the group have the home game advantage?

Well they usually don't, but that's completely irrelevant to the original point.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

What you are not getting is that the issue is the World Cup, particularly the elimination round, is always held in Canada.

You cannot say the same for the World Championships : they are not held in the same country all the time. Indeed Canada hosted it 5 years ago.

Plus your comparing NA and Europe is ridiculous anyway:

1962 and 2008 were the only 2 years the WHC has been held outside of Russia or European countries in the past 52 years.

So the argument that some are balking at the semis and finals of the World cup being in Canada or the US is a moot point. North American teams go over seas to play in the WHC every year so that should work just fine for teams in the reverse order.

The U20 and U18 championships have had tons of Gold Medalists over seas.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

So they were both held in Canada.

Every WHC, except 2, have been on European or Russian soil the past 52 years.

How is it unfair to have the semis and finals in North America ?

 

[Sanderson]

If you would read my last post you will see I am perfectly fine with having every tournament in Europe so no need to bring this up with me any further.

They can have them in Russia, Finland, Sweden,Bulgaria, whatever.

They can have IIHF refs as long as they know how to call a Hockey game with competence and they can also have these refs from the country my team is playing as long as they are professional.

They can have them all on big ice or small ice, whatever Europe chooses.

They can play only on Sundays or just on Mondays, or only in a leap year, doesn't matter to me as long as you guys are happy and are satisfied things are fair.

And you know why? Because I am not insecure about the teams we are going to send and do not need all things our way and we are gonna win our share anyway.

Right...
Funny enough, it's not the "Europeans" who complain, it's usually a selected few Canadians who claim to not care one bit yet come in year after year after year to talk endlessly about how bad everything is and how little they care. If someone cares so little, why does he have to talk about it all the time?

I couldn't care less who has the best team, or who would be the best if everyone was there. I care about what actually happens on the ice. You never have everyone in peak shape in the very best conditions available, so it's moot to look for such a thing to happen. Nor do I really care about where a tournament is held or who the refs are. I expect the teams to use what is available to them and come up with the best results possible. In my case, that's hoping for the quarterfinals and maybe a miracle run once a decade (or in decades). If that doesn't happen, tough luck, maybe next time. I sure as hell don't need to go around telling everyone how much better we are, only to whine and moan even more if things don't go my way for once. The rules are the same for everyone.

And what you're not getting is that it's not as simple as just applying in Canada's case. There aren't enough large non-NHL arenas in the country to make viable bids. NHL rinks are out of the question because of the possibility of playoffs when the worlds are held.

Yes, there are. Plenty of major junior rinks have the size, and the leagues are over once the WCH starts. It's not like the other countries have dozens of cities just waiting to host the games. In Russia it's usually Moscow or St.Petersburg, Czech Rep. uses Prag, Sweden Stockholm, Finland Helsinki, Germany Cologne and Mannheim/Berlin. Both USA and Canada have enough arenas that are open and large enough to host. All you need is one or two cities, and you can easily find those in these two countries, even if you disregard NHL-arenas.

 

[jekoh]

1962 and 2008 were the only 2 years the WHC has been held outside of Russia or European countries in the past 52 years.

So the argument that some are balking at the semis and finals of the World cup being in Canada or the US is a moot point. North American teams go over seas to play in the WHC every year so that should work just fine for teams in the reverse order.

NA teams play overseas because they don't bid to host the WHC. That's a problem of their own making, therefore it doesn't follow that European teams should forfeit their right to host other competitions as a 'compensation'.

Also you might want to realise that most countries play abroad at the WHC every year too, not just NA countries.

Every WHC, except 2, have been on European or Russian soil the past 52 years.

How is it unfair to have the semis and finals in North America ?

Every single world championship bar one or two has been played outside of Slovakia, meaning all the other countries always play at home. Therefore the World Cup should always be held in Slovakia. It's only fair, right?

By the way Russia is a European country, not sure why you single them out.

 

[tony d]

Even more of a reason to not hold a World Cup. If you ask me the World Championships and Olympics are good enough.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Any chance this gets held in February (2015 or 2016)?

 

[Macman]

Yes, there are. Plenty of major junior rinks have the size, and the leagues are over once the WCH starts. It's not like the other countries have dozens of cities just waiting to host the games. In Russia it's usually Moscow or St.Petersburg, Czech Rep. uses Prag, Sweden Stockholm, Finland Helsinki, Germany Cologne and Mannheim/Berlin. Both USA and Canada have enough arenas that are open and large enough to host. All you need is one or two cities, and you can easily find those in these two countries, even if you disregard NHL-arenas.

I'd sure love for you to list those "plenty" of major junior rinks capable of hosting the worlds. When Halifax bid for the 2008 championship it was told by the IIHF that its 10,500-seat arena, one of the biggest in the CHL, was too small to be the main venue so the organizers approached Quebec City and it became the main venue with Halifax as the secondary site.

Hamilton and London could probably pull off a joint bid and maybe Saskatoon and Regina but that's about it. When you're used to Paris and Prague, I have a feeling the average IIHf delegate would sooner **** themselves than go to any of those places.

 

[Yakushev72]

Every WHC, except 2, have been on European or Russian soil the past 52 years.

How is it unfair to have the semis and finals in North America ?

The WHC hasn't been held in North America because neither Canada or the US have applied to host it. You have to bid on it in order to host it.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

NA teams play overseas because they don't bid to host the WHC. That's a problem of their own making, therefore it doesn't follow that European teams should forfeit their right to host other competitions as a 'compensation'.

Also you might want to realise that most countries play abroad at the WHC every year too, not just NA countries.

No one is talking about "forfeit" or "compensation". What you mentioned is the unfairness of the semi-finals and finals being in North America for the World Cup. It is 10-14 hours across an OCEAN for US and Canada teams to travel every year the last 50 years.

Abroad ?

A flight from Russia to Denmark is not abroad. A flight from Sweden to Belarus is not abroad. I'm not sure you know what "far distances" are and what is fair.

Rejecting a tournament because the semis and finals, every 4-6 years, is too far away therefore making it's unfair. But thinking it is fair to make North American hockey countries fly 10-14 hours every year is what point you refuse to listen too.

That is called a double standard.

 

[jekoh]

A flight from Russia to Denmark is not abroad. A flight from Sweden to Belarus is not abroad.

Of course it is.

As for the rest of your drivel: every country at the WHC gets the chance to host the sf & finals, including Canada and the USA. That's fair. On the other hand only two countries at the WCup get the chance to host the sf and finals. That's not fair. Both competitions are held to the same standard, one meets the standard and the other does not.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

The WHC hasn't been held in North America because neither Canada or the US have applied to host it. You have to bid on it in order to host it.

I've been discussing the objections that the semis and finals of the World Cup are in Canada not who is applying for the WHC.