KHL and the World Cup (Mod warning post 355)

[SanDogBrewin]

I mean, I'll admit, I at least liked the initial rumours that the NHL was ok with a Feb World Cup every two years. Now, it's just a pre-season exhibition at a time when honestly, even I'm more interested in other sports.

Yah CFB takes over my sports viewing life in September but I wouldn't mind seeing some good hockey before October every 4 years.

 

[Yakushev72]

I know initially, the very first article said it would be in August around the Olympics, but articles out a few days later have said Sept.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/toronto-to-host-2016-world-cup-of-hockey/



I mean, I'll admit, I at least liked the initial rumours that the NHL was ok with a Feb World Cup every two years. Now, it's just a pre-season exhibition at a time when honestly, even I'm more interested in other sports.

And considering that its an exhibition, I wonder how many European teams will participate. The KHL regular season begins in late August, and its not just Russia that is affected. Finland, the Czechs and Slovakia have national team players playing in the KHL.

 

[cutchemist42]

I just remember one of people's biggest complaints about baseball's WBC is that it was out-of-season (pre-season) for probably 80% of the countries in it. Not naming names but if you held that opinion about the WBC, a hockey World Cup in Sept/Aug should also be getting the same treatment.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

I just remember one of people's biggest complaints about baseball's WBC is that it was out-of-season (pre-season) for probably 80% of the countries in it. Not naming names but if you held that opinion about the WBC, a hockey World Cup in Sept/Aug should also be getting the same treatment.

Hockey and baseball fans are not the same at all. Every hockey fan I knew were excited about being able to see the 96' and 04' World Cups, to see pro hockey players before October.

The hockey fanbase and NHL coverage in the US is much different than those years.

 

[Yakushev72]

Hockey and baseball fans are not the same at all. Every hockey fan I knew were excited about being able to see the 96' and 04' World Cups, to see pro hockey players before October.

The hockey fanbase and NHL coverage in the US is much different than those years.

Really? What do you base that statement on? From other posts, it seems that ESPN covered NHL hockey in America on cable going back to the 1980's. What do you base your assessment that the NHL fan base in the United States has dramatically changed in the last 8 years?

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Really? What do you base that statement on? From other posts, it seems that ESPN covered NHL hockey in America on cable going back to the 1980's. What do you base your assessment that the NHL fan base in the United States has dramatically changed in the last 8 years?

That isn't proof that the World Cup won't work this time around. That would mean you don't think the NHL has grown in the US, that is dead wrong. ESPN helped the NHL cause and then shifted it's focus elsewhere. NBC bought Versus for one purpose. And it was during the 90s but only for a short time in the 80s get it straight.

Never have you showed me that Canadian households carry the NHL Network. NBCSports weren't carrying the NHL, NHL Network and NHL Center Ice weren't around in 96' nor 04'. All three are in more households now.

You are looking way too hard for the WC not to work. Desperate to make sure that the World championships are thought of as a better competition.

 

[Macman]

And considering that its an exhibition, I wonder how many European teams will participate. The KHL regular season begins in late August, and its not just Russia that is affected. Finland, the Czechs and Slovakia have national team players playing in the KHL.

What did these countries do during the Canada Cup/World Cup? They all had domestic leagues that presumably started around the same time, yet they all showed up. I'm not sure why it's a deal breaker now when it didn't seem to be a deal breaker then.

 

[Urbanskog]

What did these countries do during the Canada Cup/World Cup? They all had domestic leagues that presumably started around the same time, yet they all showed up. I'm not sure why it's a deal breaker now when it didn't seem to be a deal breaker then.

Back then the KHL didn't even exist.

 

[Macman]

Back then the KHL didn't even exist.

I know, but there was a Russian league, no?

 

[Jussi]

I know, but there was a Russian league, no?

Times were different back then and there was a lot less money involved for the clubs. Nowadays several countries top European based players play in KHL plus with the CHL, there's need for dates in the hockey calendar and the clubs own financial investment into that league. Not to mention that Europe wasn't that much into the World Cup in 2004. Closeness of the Athens Olympics meant that there wasn't much media coverage for it. That situation surely won't be different in 2016.

 

[ForumNamePending]

What did these countries do during the Canada Cup/World Cup? They all had domestic leagues that presumably started around the same time, yet they all showed up. I'm not sure why it's a deal breaker now when it didn't seem to be a deal breaker then.

As far as scheduling goes I think the European calendar over the past decade has become a lot more congested. In the past it may have been easier to start the league season a bit later and still have it wrapped up in time for the IIHF WC.

I've heard the KHL regular season is going to be close to 60 games this year followed by the usual 4 rounds of best of 7 playoffs.

The other major European leagues' regular seasons seem to range from 50 to 60 games followed by at least 3 rounds of best of 7 playoffs. On top of this the leagues have also invested time and money into the establishment of the CHL which for the clubs participating adds anywhere from 6 to 13 additional games.

I think given all this it could make it difficult for these leagues to accommodate both a NHL/PA WCup and a IIHF WC in the same season. Given that most (all?) the major Euro leagues are still in some way tied to their national federations if having to choose between participating in a tournament that offers them a voice in how it is run and an opportunity to benefit from it or a tournament that is solely controlled by the NHL/PA I think they are going to stick with the former.

I certainly don't expect the NHL to modify their season to accommodate the IIHF WC. I also wouldn't expect the KHL, or any other league, to modify their season to accommodate the WCup, especially if it means damaging their own interests.

Another thing that has changed is money... There is a lot more of it in European hockey these days, especially the KHL. Much like the NHL doesn't like the idea of big $$$ players risking injury in a mid season event they have little control over, KHL clubs (or any other club) might feel the same way about releasing its big $$$ players for an event that they not only have little or no control over but solely benefits an entity that they may look at as their competition.

All this is just me thinking out loud but I don't think any of what I said is unreasonable to think as potential obstacles.

 

[Yakushev72]

What did these countries do during the Canada Cup/World Cup? They all had domestic leagues that presumably started around the same time, yet they all showed up. I'm not sure why it's a deal breaker now when it didn't seem to be a deal breaker then.

The Russian "Champion" league in Soviet times was a mix of Government entities and trade union/industrial associations that were funded by public money and were not designed to generate profits. The KHL, by contrast, is an enterprise with a similar financial structure to the NHL. There is no way that the KHL would be persuaded to participate without huge financial payoffs, which of course the NHL is unlikely to offer. My opinion is that Russia would opt not to have an entry in the World Cup, but it is possible that Russian NHL players could elect to participate on their own. It wouldn't be a national team, because some of Russia's best players, like Kovalchuk and Radulov, wouldn't be available. The latter scenario is possible, but I think it is highly unlikely. I think Russia would just opt out of the tournament.

 

[Yakushev72]

As far as scheduling goes I think the European calendar over the past decade has become a lot more congested. In the past it may have been easier to start the league season a bit later and still have it wrapped up in time for the IIHF WC.

I've heard the KHL regular season is going to be close to 60 games this year followed by the usual 4 rounds of best of 7 playoffs.

The other major European leagues' regular seasons seem to range from 50 to 60 games followed by at least 3 rounds of best of 7 playoffs. On top of this the leagues have also invested time and money into the establishment of the CHL which for the clubs participating adds anywhere from 6 to 13 additional games.

I think given all this it could make it difficult for these leagues to accommodate both a NHL/PA WCup and a IIHF WC in the same season. Given that most (all?) the major Euro leagues are still in some way tied to their national federations if having to choose between participating in a tournament that offers them a voice in how it is run and an opportunity to benefit from it or a tournament that is solely controlled by the NHL/PA I think they are going to stick with the former.

I certainly don't expect the NHL to modify their season to accommodate the IIHF WC. I also wouldn't expect the KHL, or any other league, to modify their season to accommodate the WCup, especially if it means damaging their own interests.

Another thing that has changed is money... There is a lot more of it in European hockey these days, especially the KHL. Much like the NHL doesn't like the idea of big $$$ players risking injury in a mid season event they have little control over, KHL clubs (or any other club) might feel the same way about releasing its big $$$ players for an event that they not only have little or no control over but solely benefits an entity that they may look at as their competition.

All this is just me thinking out loud but I don't think any of what I said is unreasonable to think as potential obstacles.

IMO, your analysis is 100% accurate.

 

[cutchemist42]

Semi-related since people have brought up the WBC and similarities to a league/multiple leagues-run World Champ, but a poster on another board who works with IBAF at their tourneys is saying that the WBC might be scrapped. Wonder if this line of thinking could apply to the IIHF and the NHL? Might be interesting to follow this....

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showt...-World-Baseball-Classic&p=2338200#post2338200

Well, I just had a face to face with second in command of the IBAF and we chatted for a quite a while. Turns out Premier 12 is designed to replace the WBC. That's the IBAF's goal, and after 2017 MLB is supposed to hand over the WBC to IBAF. According to him MLB was only in it during it's infancy to get it going. But he told me that the goal is for the Premier 12 to be the biggest tournament out there. He said he's curious to how the first one goes next year, and said they are not even asking for 40 man roster people right now. That would have to change going forward if it was to be the biggest thing going. The conversation confused me, and I tried to get as much as I could standing in front of the stadium between games, but I had to get back to scoring the next game. From what I heard from him there has been NO talk on qualifiers and NO talk on the 2017 WBC at all. He mentioned some of the countries really making a push to grow their programs like France and New Zealand, and said he believes there will likely be a qualifier in Europe, but he does not think Germany necessarily. He mentioned the new park in Holland, but I reminded him they do not have to qualify, and he admitted that would kill attendance. There is a soft spot in my heart for IBAF since I get to go places for free and do baseball tournaments, but I understand where some of the criticism comes from. It's just an organization with little money and little staffing so I was surprised to hear that the WBC is supposed to be their after 2017 and not a product of MLB. But he was adamant that was the case and that MLB was never supposed to be the lead after this.

And the Premier 12 is not the Top 12 from the last Classic, but the top 12 ranked teams in their rankings, which of course countries can earn points by participating and qualifying in the recently completed (ok, gold medal game starts in 20 minutes) 15U World Baseball Championships. So countries like Lithuania, and Hong Kong, and South Africa, and New Zealand, and Guatemala all earned points for this tournament of some variety (maybe they didn't since they were all in the bottom group the 2nd round (an experience to score let me assure you), but I think they still earned points. That means countries like Colombia, Sweden, France, even the Netherlands, which were not here, did not get a chance to gain ranking points. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. I get tidbits of information, but am not completely on the inside like I would like to be. Would love to work for them, and see how I could help out, but alas, I'll take what I can get right now.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showt...-World-Baseball-Classic&p=2339474#post2339474

After I posted my original post I talked to some other IBAF people and mentioned my surprise about the WBC comments. Those comments were confirmed stating that MLB does not have the right to conduct international tournaments and if international tournaments like the WBC were to continue it has to be under the direction of the recognized international baseball organization and that's IBAF. I asked who appointed or recognized ibaf as the one and was told the IOC. I said that was strange since it's not in the Olympics.

As for the WBC I was told the MLB is not the premier piece in all of this anyway because the ratings are so dismal in this country. The driving force behind the success of international baseball is the Asian market. From what I heard the Asian market especially Japan wants to throw their support behind ibaf run things and not the WBC run by MLB. The Asian countries want stuff handled by the recognized international baseball federation and not MLB.

Yes the bottom line seems to me that the WBC is in jeopardy but that ibaf isn't worried about that. I said I work for ibaf and love doing their tourneys but there is no publicity associated with them so nobody knows. I was told that's true in the USA but not in other markets and it's the other markets where they are hanging their hats.

I was told that MLB would not be allowed to independently run their own international baseball tournament. To what extent this is true or could be enforced I don't know. It seemed to me I was being told that if MLB tried to go through with something like that the Asian countries would be out and then you wouldn't have much of a tournament anyway.

Who knows what's true or not but these are people on the know! They tell me they want the game to grow and that's all I want to so fingers crossed it works

 

[Xokkeu]

Well I've never been a fan of the NHL running a tournament, but that sounds like a horrible idea for baseball. Are MLB players really going to be playing in the Premier 12 competition, when they and MLB aren't profiting from it? That's not to mention the branding issue. Premier 12 has none whatsoever, why would you throw that all away? I don't get it.

 

[cutchemist42]

Well I've never been a fan of the NHL running a tournament, but that sounds like a horrible idea for baseball. Are MLB players really going to be playing in the Premier 12 competition, when they and MLB aren't profiting from it? That's not to mention the branding issue. Premier 12 has none whatsoever, why would you throw that all away? I don't get it.

Just a couple of points in relation to what you said:

-Its true, the Premier12 has no branding but I guess you gotta start somewhere.

-I think IBAF wants the Premier12 because it has to show the IOC its not reliant on MLB/NPB/KBO to organize everything.

-IBAF has positioned the P12 to a sport where MLB players could play if allowed. Some think baseball REALLY noticed the attention the World Cup got the last time and might be more receptive to even more of that product in baseball.

-Baseball could find itself in a hockey like scenario. Japan already held up the last WBC by months because of disagreements. IBAF is only as powerful as the organizations backing it, so what if NPB/KBO threw their backing into IBAF. This tourney could serve as a bargaining chip to finally allow NPB to get WBC Finals in the country.

-If an MLB player decides to do the P12, they are basically doing it for the same reasons an NHL player plays in the WHC. Extra baseball near the end of the season in some fun locations.

 

[Xokkeu]

Just a couple of points in relation to what you said:

-Its true, the Premier12 has no branding but I guess you gotta start somewhere.

-I think IBAF wants the Premier12 because it has to show the IOC its not reliant on MLB/NPB/KBO to organize everything.

-IBAF has positioned the P12 to a sport where MLB players could play if allowed. Some think baseball REALLY noticed the attention the World Cup got the last time and might be more receptive to even more of that product in baseball.

-Baseball could find itself in a hockey like scenario. Japan already held up the last WBC by months because of disagreements. IBAF is only as powerful as the organizations backing it, so what if NPB/KBO threw their backing into IBAF. This tourney could serve as a bargaining chip to finally allow NPB to get WBC Finals in the country.

-If an MLB player decides to do the P12, they are basically doing it for the same reasons an NHL player plays in the WHC. Extra baseball near the end of the season in some fun locations.

Well first of all, does anybody really think Premier 12 is a good brand to market? I just don't get why you throw away what little branding the WBC had. If you are going to rebrand, at least call it a World Cup or Championship. I never understood why they wanted the WBC to not be a World Cup. The naming is important.

The difference between the WHC and baseball is big though. Taking the US out of the WHC wouldn't do much damage, so it doesn't really hurt the WHC that they send weak teams of u23s each year. The Europeans are enough to have a serious tournament in hockey. In addition US hockey players at least have a bit of incentive to try and get on the next Olympic team. If you take the US out of baseball, you are taking away the major source of talent and one of the few elite teams in the sport. I just can't see the US sending much of a team to this Premier 12 tournament if they aren't pushed by MLB to participate. Plus there's no incentive like making the Olympic team in baseball.

 

[cutchemist42]

Well first of all, does anybody really think Premier 12 is a good brand to market? I just don't get why you throw away what little branding the WBC had. If you are going to rebrand, at least call it a World Cup or Championship. I never understood why they wanted the WBC to not be a World Cup. The naming is important.

The difference between the WHC and baseball is big though. Taking the US out of the WHC wouldn't do much damage, so it doesn't really hurt the WHC that they send weak teams of u23s each year. The Europeans are enough to have a serious tournament in hockey. In addition US hockey players at least have a bit of incentive to try and get on the next Olympic team. If you take the US out of baseball, you are taking away the major source of talent and one of the few elite teams in the sport. I just can't see the US sending much of a team to this Premier 12 tournament if they aren't pushed by MLB to participate. Plus there's no incentive like making the Olympic team in baseball.

I actually thought that once the original World Cup of Baseball ended, that MLB might be better served adopting that name over the WBC, since by that time there were only 2 WBCs. I still think with 3 WBCs done, it might still be better to adopt the World Cup moniker.

 

[Davebo*]

Hey I was just wondering : the KHL seasons starts in September.

IF a World Cup is held by the NHL, I assume it would be in September.

IF KHL teams don't let its players go - why should they??? - how would the World Cup qualify as a best on best?

Russia, Finland and the Czech Republic would lose 5 to 8 players each.

But, what you're describing has happened already.

Does your scenario tarnish the gold medals awarded before NHL participation in the winter Olympics? Or is that a given, now?