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KHL and the World Cup (Mod warning post 355)

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Jussi said:
:laugh: Someone is not thinking clearly here. NHL taking a cut from NHLPA's share AND NHLPA reducing their share? Two things that won't be happening EVER. NHLPA's share wouldn't go straight into the players pockets anyway but rather their retirement fund or whatever. This idea is just bat**** crazy. :laugh: :shakehead :help: This is literally the craziest idea since Kadri + 1st for Crosby.
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It is really not that difficult a concept, allow the players from Europe to profit a bit from a WCup the same way the NHLers do, which is completely fair since they would be a necessary part of the tournament. Even I have a hard time believing you can't understand this one. I know you are against anything that could replace your precious status quo of the WC and the OG, but please your response is just silly.
 
Mr Kanadensisk said:
It is really not that difficult a concept, allow the players from Europe to profit a bit from a WCup the same way the NHLers do, which is completely fair since they would be a necessary part of the tournament. Even I have a hard time believing you can't understand this one. I know you are against anything that could replace your precious status quo of the WC and the OG, but please your response is just silly.
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The two concepts that are not realistic in any sense are that NHL would make the NHLPA give up their money to someone else and that the NHLPA would reduce their share. Two things that are guaranteed not to happen. Anyone who has followed what those organizations have done in the past 20 years know that they are far too greedy and arrogant to do either of those.
 
Jussi said:
The two concepts that are not realistic in any sense are that NHL would make the NHLPA give up their money to someone else and that the NHLPA would reduce their share. Two things that are guaranteed not to happen. Anyone who has followed what those organizations have done in the past 20 years know that they are far too greedy and arrogant to do either of those.
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Again just more nonsense. The NHL and the NHLPA have gone to the OG 5 times for absolutely no money from the IIHF and IOC. You can call them greedy all you like, but better greedy than greedy and corrupt like your beloved IIHF/IOC.

If the NHL aren't going to go to the OG anymore, which many people acknowledge might happen, despite the hundreds upon hundreds of posts you have made claiming that it was absolutely impossible that the NHL would stop going, then it only makes sense that you need to give the participants from outside of the NHL a piece of the profits. They are smart enough business people to understand that shared profits are better than no profits.
 
Mr Kanadensisk said:
Again just more nonsense. The NHL and the NHLPA have gone to the OG 5 times for absolutely no money from the IIHF and IOC. You can call them greedy all you like, but better greedy than greedy and corrupt like your beloved IIHF/IOC.

If the NHL aren't going to go to the OG anymore, which many people acknowledge might happen, despite the hundreds upon hundreds of posts you have made claiming that it was absolutely impossible that the NHL would stop going, then it only makes sense that you need to give the participants from outside of the NHL a piece of the profits. They are smart enough business people to understand that shared profits are better than no profits.
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They went to the Olympics because a) the players wanted and b) the because it would give the league publicity. They knew full well that there wasn't going to be money made directly and bringing that up just makes the hole you're digging yourself into deeper all the time.

Shared profits would be a good idea but everyone with a half a brain knows that neither party is going to be doing so. The amount of money required to do so (ie. Russians) would cut off way too much form the possible revenue of the tournament.
 
I'm just going to reverse the NHL owners argument here: why should SKA and ZSKA release Kovalchuk and Radulov respectively for this tournament just when the KHL regular season is about to begin? If they get injured, will the IOC...err...NHL compensate them were they to pick up a season ending injury?
 
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Jussi said:
I'm just going to reverse the NHL owners argument here: why should SKA and ZSKA release Kovalchuk and Radulov respectively for this tournament just when the KHL regular season is about to begin? If they get injured, will the IOC...err...NHL compensate them were thy to pick up a season ending injury?
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If the tournament starts around September 3rd or 4th, the KHL regular season will already have started. There is no way they are going to risk teams missing the playoffs down the road because of losses incurred during those 2 to 3 weeks in order to lend a helping hand to a rival business group that has been very unfriendly to them in their early years.

The only way that the KHL and RHF would consider cooperating would be, as you have suggested, if the NHL offers an 8-figure financial reward for their participation. The World Cup would shine a spotlight on the NHL as being the World's premier league, which would cast the KHL as being in second place. The KHL would be crazy to participate and reinforce those notions. If they thought there was a good chance they would win, maybe they would overcome all that, but what are the chances that the Russians could fly 6,000 miles to Canada, play in Canadian arenas filled with Canadian fans who passionately hate Russians, carry out a travel schedule designed to keep them exhausted, and have the games refereed by Canadian and American refs. In short, why bother?
 
I don't know why you guys are arguing, it would be quite surprising if the KHL and Euro leagues release their players for no compensation (which is kind of a main point of breaking from the IOC), and it can't really happen without their participation (to fill out rosters).
 
Jussi said:
They went to the Olympics because a) the players wanted and b) the because it would give the league publicity. They knew full well that there wasn't going to be money made directly and bringing that up just makes the hole you're digging yourself into deeper all the time.
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Which directly contradicts your claim that they are too greedy to share.

Jussi said:
Shared profits would be a good idea but everyone with a half a brain knows that neither party is going to be doing so. The amount of money required to do so (ie. Russians) would cut off way too much form the possible revenue of the tournament.
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The WCup would make enough money here to pay the Euro based players well and cover their insurance costs. We're talking about selling hockey in Toronto, not Helsinki.
 
Yakushev72 said:
The only way that the KHL and RHF would consider cooperating would be, as you have suggested, if the NHL offers an 8-figure financial reward for their participation. The World Cup would shine a spotlight on the NHL as being the World's premier league, which would cast the KHL as being in second place. The KHL would be crazy to participate and reinforce those notions. If they thought there was a good chance they would win, maybe they would overcome all that, but what are the chances that the Russians could fly 6,000 miles to Canada, play in Canadian arenas filled with Canadian fans who passionately hate Russians, carry out a travel schedule designed to keep them exhausted, and have the games refereed by Canadian and American refs. In short, why bother?
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The odds of Russia winning a best on best tournament on the small ice are even less than they are at most OG, so you have a point there. Mind you if Canada and the US can send a team to Europe for the WC every year, it is not really asking much for the Euro's to send over a handful of players for one tournament.
 
Mr Kanadensisk said:
The odds of Russia winning a best on best tournament on the small ice are even less than they are at most OG, so you have a point there. Mind you if Canada and the US can send a team to Europe for the WC every year, it is not really asking much for the Euro's to send over a handful of players for one tournament.
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AS your colleagues mentioned so many times, you sending CDE teams with constant results. So Russia could probably send players from the second league. Excuses guaranted, surprises welcome:laugh:
 
Jablkon said:
AS your colleagues mentioned so many times, you sending CDE teams with constant results. So Russia could probably send players from the second league. Excuses guaranted, surprises welcome:laugh:
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Good one, or maybe Russia could naturalize some of the North Americans who are tearing up the KHL and send them over to play for them.
 
Mr Kanadensisk said:
Which directly contradicts your claim that they are too greedy to share.
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:facepalm: Olympics isn't about money. The World Cup is. Is it that hard for you to get?

Also, it's not the players that would need to be paid but leagues or federations. If KHL/Russia demands a 8 figure sum, other leagues won't play for free either. That would eat up from the potential revenue a lot more than they'd want to see.
 
I think everyone can agree on this:
-Players play in the Olympics because they want to (and not for money).
- The world cup without KHL players will not be a best-on-best tournament.
-Euro players playing in Europe have little incentive to play in NA in front of NA fans in a tourney watched mostly by NA audience.
-Euro teams have nothing to gain from the World Cup and if the players aren't eager to go play in the WC, there is no reason for them to release their players.

So given my current understanding of the WC format, it will be the best US, CAN, SWE teams against . . . i'm not really sure how the other teams will get a full rooster.
 
Burke the Legend said:
I don't know why you guys are arguing, it would be quite surprising if the KHL and Euro leagues release their players for no compensation (which is kind of a main point of breaking from the IOC), and it can't really happen without their participation (to fill out rosters).
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This.

The NHL perfectly knows that there needs to be agreement with the KHL and other european leagues. I would bet my house that there will be some type of that agreement. It's really talking about nothing if you discuss that the WC will be a joke tournament without European players. It won't be without European players. Period.
 
airbus1094 said:
I think everyone can agree on this:
-Players play in the Olympics because they want to (and not for money).
- The world cup without KHL players will not be a best-on-best tournament.
-Euro players playing in Europe have little incentive to play in NA in front of NA fans in a tourney watched mostly by NA audience.
-Euro teams have nothing to gain from the World Cup and if the players aren't eager to go play in the WC, there is no reason for them to release their players.

So given my current understanding of the WC format, it will be the best US, CAN, SWE teams against . . . i'm not really sure how the other teams will get a full rooster.
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1) That's not true. I would bet that some player from Finnish or Czech league who maybe even hasn't played for the best national team yet, would definitely want to play on that team, let alone in front of great crowd in Toronto, in Canada. And I'm sure that the same goes for the most if not all the players in Europe who would play for their respective national team. This is absolute nonsense.

2) Euro teams have nothing to gain? Yes, only the fact that they could win a best-on-best tournament, but who cares, really.

I don't know from what source you have that players in Europe, or players of european teams, would not like to play at the WC, that's absolute BS. Some posters here on HF may don't like the WC and think whatever they want, but that has nothing to do with real players' opinions.
 
True Hockey Fan said:
1) That's not true. I would bet that some player from Finnish or Czech league who maybe even hasn't played for the best national team yet, would definitely want to play on that team, let alone in front of great crowd in Toronto, in Canada. And I'm sure that the same goes for the most if not all the players in Europe who would play for their respective national team. This is absolute nonsense.

2) Euro teams have nothing to gain? Yes, only the fact that they could win a best-on-best tournament, but who cares, really.

I don't know from what source you have that players in Europe, or players of european teams, would not like to play at the WC, that's absolute BS. Some posters here on HF may don't like the WC and think whatever they want, but that has nothing to do with real players' opinions.
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Agree. Not sure If got the original post but I can't imagine any players refusing it. It is always issue in WHC and I do not remember any case in best of best. It is just about fans attitude not about players...they would go for sure....evem from KHL (id f they are allowed)
 
Mr Kanadensisk said:
This is one of the best quotes I have ever seen on the hfboards, man do you ever live on another planet.
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No, he doesn't, but you do. The Olympics make money for the IOC, the IIHF doesn't get much out of it, and neither does the NHL. Just because the Olympics have been commercialised beyond belief, doesn't mean that everybody involved gets a large slice out of that cake.

A World Cup would be entirely different. Here, all the money goes to the NHL. As such, comparing it to the Olympics is utterly ridiculous. On the one hand you have neither of the two parties making a lot while a third party gets rich, on the other hand, you have one party making money while the other gets nothing out of it.
 
I think for fans who want to see a true best on best tournament this may not be encouraging as I can see there not being access to KHL players. The perception in North America is by and large that the NHL has all the best players (which is somewhat true in the sense the NHL has almost all the players it wants, but that's not necessarily the same as the best). As long as that perception is there, then the event will be profitable. I'd take the result with a grain of salt if Canada were to just squeak by someone with a weakened roster- however, if the goal of the tournament is to make money, they don't care why I'm watching and how much I care about the result, as long as I am in fact watching.... and I would still watch because it would be really good hockey even with some good players missing.

So basically, long story short, it probably won't be necessary for them to have European based players if it's purely a money grab because it the missing players wouldn't affect viewership near as much as legitimacy.

When do the other Euro leagues begin play? Looking at the 2004 rosters there were several Euro based players in that World Cup. Is this strictly a KHL issue? I can't see why they would/should release the players without getting something in return.
 
PurpleMouse said:
I think for fans who want to see a true best on best tournament this may not be encouraging as I can see there not being access to KHL players. The perception in North America is by and large that the NHL has all the best players (which is somewhat true in the sense the NHL has almost all the players it wants, but that's not necessarily the same as the best). As long as that perception is there, then the event will be profitable. I'd take the result with a grain of salt if Canada were to just squeak by someone with a weakened roster- however, if the goal of the tournament is to make money, they don't care why I'm watching and how much I care about the result, as long as I am in fact watching.... and I would still watch because it would be really good hockey even with some good players missing.

So basically, long story short, it probably won't be necessary for them to have European based players if it's purely a money grab because it the missing players wouldn't affect viewership near as much as legitimacy.

When do the other Euro leagues begin play? Looking at the 2004 rosters there were several Euro based players in that World Cup. Is this strictly a KHL issue? I can't see why they would/should release the players without getting something in return.
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KHL wasn't around 10 years nor did it have such an influence. Practically all the non-NHL players from national teams play there now.
 
Jussi said:
They went to the Olympics because a) the players wanted and b) the because it would give the league publicity. They knew full well that there wasn't going to be money made directly and bringing that up just makes the hole you're digging yourself into deeper all the time.
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The players were allowed to go to the Olympics by the NHL and the NHLPA or they don't play. NHL owners aren't worried about any publicity or ratings for the NHL overseas because of the TV revenue they get in NA.

The NHL players want to play for there countries in the World Cup, WHC and Olympics. That is why they have in the past. There pay day in the NHL comes first though.

You can't keep putting the whole blame on the NHL.
 
Here's a question:

If an arrangement is worked out to have Euro leagues and Euro league players participating in the WC and getting a share of revenues, do you think they will view a NA location as unfair when it means they will have more money in their pockets than if it was held in Europe?
 
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