Kevyn Adams GM thread

[toddkaz]

Lol. Terry, Housley, Bylsma, Ralph, Cody Hodgson, Jerry D'Amigo, Josh Georges, Andrej Meszaros, Doug Allen, Larry Quinn, Kevin Snow, Conehead... the list goes on and on, I'm sure of it.


People are certainly free to be frustrated with the past decade. I am to a large degree - no playoffs during my partying prime has been very unfortunate . But those are sunk cost frustrations. Imo, it's not healthy or productive to charge people in the present for the sins of those long gone.

Adams took over the organization in the depths of Covid when the team looked closer to folding than ever making the playoffs again. He has restructured the front office to compliment his own strengths and weaknesses, built a respected analytics department from scratch, and turned Rochester into a legitimate development program. He has gotten strong value on every trade and contract he's executed, and his only errors have been errors of omission depending on one's level of patience. He retained Granato, who in 750 days has flipped the most rotten culture in the league into one of the best, righted the trajectories of our cornerstone assets, and established a style of play that is beginning to fill the building again.

No, they shouldn't and won't be dismissed if Toronto, Florida, Boston, and Tampa all continue their deals with the devil and we miss again. Short of a disastrous season, they'll have this year and next to see out their project.

So if Adams and Granato get fired does that mean you get to kick the can another 4 years down the road. Yikes.

 

[TehDoak]

People are certainly free to be frustrated with the past decade. I am to a large degree - no playoffs during my partying prime has been very unfortunate . But those are sunk cost frustrations. Imo, it's not healthy or productive to charge people in the present for the sins of those long gone.

Adams took over the organization in the depths of Covid when the team looked closer to folding than ever making the playoffs again.

He took over a .500 team with 3 top 5 picks that were productive. The nosedive back to last place happened under his watch.

He has restructured the front office to compliment his own strengths and weaknesses,

He completely razed the front office and laid people off in a time when no sports teams were hiring to save a billionaire some money.

built a respected analytics department from scratch,

He hired a few more analytics people in lieu of scouts. There is very little evidence that they use these analytics for much other than lip service.

and turned Rochester into a legitimate development program.

Huh? I'm not sure the rate of graduation of players is any greater than it was previously. If anything he's largely ignored the development program there to rush players to the NHL. Samuelsson and Krebs were both rushed up after small stints there. Cozens never stepped foot in Rochester. UPL didn't take significant steps forward. Quinn and Peterka are the only real examples of players who spent a full season there.

He has gotten strong value on every trade

Stop.

and contract he's executed,

- Giving a player with less than 70 games of NHL experience a 7 year contract is not some genius level of player management, it's an unneeded dice roll.

- He bridged Reinhart instead of extending him

- The Taylor Hall debacle.

- Craig Anderson (TWICE)

Stop.

and his only errors have been errors of omission depending on one's level of patience.

Not addressing obvious and clear needs isn't an error of omission.

He retained Granato, who in 750 days has flipped the most rotten culture in the league into one of the best,

This is some kool aid shit right here.

The culture was rotten because of losing. And losing, and more losing.

The culture is 'fixed' because there are no expectations on the team. The team has played two full seasons of consequence free games. Yes there was a handful of 'meaningful' games in April, but they were largely out of it by the middle of march.

Being a bunch of good friends doesn't equate to a good culture in a professional sports league. This whole 'we want guys who want to be here' shit was more of a way to deflect blame away from the front office onto so called "malcontents" who, gasp, wanted to win games. A good culture is one that produces good results, that is self policing. If the team continues to fall short of modest goals, the culture will turn, just like it did in the Eichel/Reinhart era. Losing is a cancer and will destroy any efforts at creating a good culture.

righted the trajectories of our cornerstone assets, and established a style of play that is beginning to fill the building again.

A style of play that won't win them a single round in the playoffs, you mean?

No, they shouldn't and won't be dismissed if Toronto, Florida, Boston, and Tampa all continue their deals with the devil and we miss again. Short of a disastrous season, they'll have this year and next to see out their project.

Ah yes, we've pre-baked in excuses for next year already? Because the teams in front of them are better built, better managed, and better coached? I think the devil they've made their deal with might be called 'competent management and ownership'

 

[Jim Bob]

If this is what happens we need to start praying for a new GM

Thoughts and prayers will not get the Pegulas to replace Adams. I am sure they are more than happy with the job he has done to date.

 

[Jim Bob]

Well, that doesn't make sense. Because the season of development and evaluation has passed, and our defense has collapsed and there was no quality depth. We have almost no prospects in defense who are ready to enter the game now, unlike the forwards (Savoie, Kulich). I also thought Adams said after the season that he was going to improve his defense. With goalies, too, not everything is clear. Comrie fell off a cliff, UPL hasn't proven himself reliable, but Adams might give him another chance. Levi is just entering the NHL and it would be nice to find him some kind of mentor who will share games with him for several seasons.

Adams has taken a patient approach to roster building to date. He could be more aggressive this offseason than he has been previously. But, expecting him to change his approach and acting like continuing with a patient approach and expecting more growth from the youngest roster in the NHL as surprising just doesn't make sense to me.

Adams has repeatedly talked up the guys they have. Maybe it is all smoke and keeping his cards close to his chest. Or, maybe he actually is being honest and he will once again decide that what other GMs want in trade is too much and he sticks with what he has already.

 

[Fjordy]

Adams has taken a patient approach to roster building to date. He could be more aggressive this offseason than he has been previously. But, expecting him to change his approach and acting like continuing with a patient approach and expecting more growth from the youngest roster in the NHL as surprising just doesn't make sense to me.

Adams has repeatedly talked up the guys they have. Maybe it is all smoke and keeping his cards close to his chest. Or, maybe he actually is being honest and he will once again decide that what other GMs want in trade is too much and he sticks with what he has already.

Again, he himself admitted that the defense needs improvement and I think he will improve it, I don’t know about goalie. I would improve for reliability, he probably won't. IMO

 

[Jim Bob]

He completely razed the front office and laid people off in a time when no sports teams were hiring to save a billionaire some money.



He hired a few more analytics people in lieu of scouts. There is very little evidence that they use these analytics for much other than lip service.

For the first one, it is obvious that Adams was carrying out orders from his bosses. And there are reports that part of the reason Botts was let go was that he was unwilling to carry out those orders.

And as far as evidence that they use their analytics team goes, do you think Jerry Forton was dishonest after the 2022 Draft when he talked about how the scouting side and the analytics side work well together?



And if that is merely lip service, I don't know what you would expect to see more than talk about what happens behind closed doors.

Again, he himself admitted that the defense needs improvement and I think he will improve it, I don’t know about goalie. I would improve for reliability, he probably won't. IMO

Wanting to improve on D and actually giving a top 4 guy a UFA contract or giving up what another GM wants in trade is another thing.

We saw that play out at the deadline where Adams was interested in Chychrun, but unwilling to give up Savoie or Kulich in the deal. And since he was unwilling to give them up, Arizona took the Ottawa deal.

Adams could severely limit his options by being unwilling to pay UFA dollars and term that other GMs will for a top 4 D and being unwilling to part with the trade pieces that other GMs want for their top 4 guys.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

Again, he himself admitted that the defense needs improvement and I think he will improve it, I don’t know about goalie. I would improve for reliability, he probably won't. IMO

It seems pretty clear that we will be leaning on some combination of Levi and either Comrie or UPL next season. He won't be touching goaltending and i have strong negative feelings about that. It's my only real criticism of Adams at this time.

I do agree that he has made it clear he intends to work on fixing our blue line.

 

[Gabrielor]

What could they have done differently the last two years to leverage cap space and put themselves into an even better situation than they already are? For example, was there a top 4 dman that fit Adams criteria but also required eating a big shitty contract to make it happen? I can’t think of one. But if there was and we passed on the deal due to eating the shitty contract. Then thats an example of a wasted opportunity to capitalize on our cap space in the context of what they're building.

He could've added short term guys that didn't necessarily fit his criteria of young and long term. Vets who are there for the rise but not for the actual winning happen all the time.

Blackhawks 07-08 Robert Lang is a for-instance.

 

[1point21Gigawatts]

For the first one, it is obvious that Adams was carrying out orders from his bosses. And there are reports that part of the reason Botts was let go was that he was unwilling to carry out those orders.

Just to add to your point here, sabres were the of the first clubs to make massive layoffs during the pandemic. Other teams followed suit, but because our organization was such a mess, we made headlines over it. That certainly contributed to the "yes man" vibes a lot of us had about adams.

 

[Fjordy]

Wanting to improve on D and actually giving a top 4 guy a UFA contract or giving up what another GM wants in trade is another thing.

We saw that play out at the deadline where Adams was interested in Chychrun, but unwilling to give up Savoie or Kulich in the deal. And since he was unwilling to give them up, Arizona took the Ottawa deal.

Adams could severely limit his options by being unwilling to pay UFA dollars and term that other GMs will for a top 4 D and being unwilling to part with the trade pieces that other GMs want for their top 4 guys.

Well, there will be options both in UFA and in trade.

It seems pretty clear that we will be leaning on some combination of Levi and either Comrie or UPL next season. He won't be touching goaltending and i have strong negative feelings about that. It's my only real criticism of Adams at this time.

I do agree that he has made it clear he intends to work on fixing our blue line.

Top 4 D is also too important for me, given our depth and quality of protection.

 

[May Day 10]

I was someone looking for a bridge to jump off when they hired Adams. I saw they were grooming him for years to take over with no other experience than watching this tire fire, and his best qualifications was he was an NHL player who grew up in Buffalo and college educated.


You would have to do a lot of gymnastics to say he has done anything less than a great job so far. I was wrong about him. He seems to have had a clear vision for the front office and it appears to be working. He also appears to admit he knows the tip of the iceburg and will be learning on the job forever, unlike retreads we (I) would have celebrate the hiring of like Bowman, Burke, Fletcher, etc...

The entire aura of the team is different. It is night and day from the dark years. They have a lot of skill who are allowed to flourish, the cupboards have been filling up, and players legit seem to want to play and win here. Pegula had floundered for so long trying to get to that point.


Next season is a big one though. They need to take that next step and get in the playoffs. Need goaltending that is at least the NHL average, which has been a blind spot position for Adams.

 

[TehDoak]

For the first one, it is obvious that Adams was carrying out orders from his bosses. And there are reports that part of the reason Botts was let go was that he was unwilling to carry out those orders.

"Just following orders" has always been a terrible excuse for terrible people. As you stated, it was the reason they hired a guy with no management experience at any level of hockey in the first place.

And as far as evidence that they use their analytics team goes, do you think Jerry Forton was dishonest after the 2022 Draft when he talked about how the scouting side and the analytics side work well together?

I don't think he was dishonest. I think, if they use it at all, it might be more on the amatuer scouting side than the than the professional side, especially given the questionable decisions made over the last few years. What has stuck with me with regards to their analytics usage is that In the 'beyond blue and gold' video about last years offseason, they had a badly staged camera op of them 'talking' to the analytics guys about Comrie and the argument FOR was that he "got better at every year in the AHL" and that was a good indicator. Just was this forced, ham fisted way to show 'SEE WE USE ANALYTICS'.

 

[Jim Bob]

Well, there will be options both in UFA and in trade.


Top 4 D is also too important for me, given our depth and quality of protection.

There are always options. That does not mean that Adams agrees to the prices.

The signing of Comrie was preceded by the failed attempt to land Matt Murray in trade and Chad D says that they wanted a different UFA goalie who decided to sign elsewhere.

And we know that Ullmark was open to re-signing here, but Adams balked at the contract ask and he walked.

Just because something is of major importance to fans and media does not mean that it is of the same level of importance to Adams. And trades or UFA signings that fans and media want to happen may not be actual options to Adams and/or worth the cost in Adams's mind.

I don't think he was dishonest. I think, if they use it at all, it might be more on the amatuer scouting side than the than the professional side, especially given the questionable decisions made over the last few years. What has stuck with me with regards to their analytics usage is that In the 'beyond blue and gold' video about last years offseason, they had a badly staged camera op of them 'talking' to the analytics guys about Comrie and the argument FOR was that he "got better at every year in the AHL" and that was a good indicator. Just was this forced, ham fisted way to show 'SEE WE USE ANALYTICS'.

So, you don't buy all the evidence that they use analytics because you don't like the decisions they made. Got it.

 

[Fjordy]

There are always options. That does not mean that Adams agrees to the prices.

The signing of Comrie was preceded by the failed attempt to land Matt Murray in trade and Chad D says that they wanted a different UFA goalie who decided to sign elsewhere.

And we know that Ullmark was open to re-signing here, but Adams balked at the contract ask and he walked.

Just because something is of major importance to fans and media does not mean that it is of the same level of importance to Adams. And trades or UFA signings that fans and media want to happen may not be actual options to Adams and/or worth the cost in Adams's mind.

That's the point, sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes it does. So that doesn't mean Adams won't sign/trade for a top 4 D in the summer. There is a problem and Adams will solve it.

 

[Jim Bob]

That's the point, sometimes it doesn't happen and sometimes it does. So that doesn't mean Adams won't sign/trade for a top 4 D in the summer. There is a problem and Adams will solve it.

That same problem existed last summer and he did not solve it.

That same problem existed at the TDL and he did not solve it.

 

[Fjordy]

That same problem existed last summer and he did not solve it.

That same problem existed at the TDL and he did not solve it.

No you are wrong, last summer he was not going to solve it, because it was a season of development and evaluation. Now this season has passed, he saw where we are and what we are capable of, that we have a good attack and there is potential for growth, but he also saw a problem in defense outside of the big three.

There are not many options in TDL and no UFA, plus prices seem higher. In the summer it will be easier to do this, as there will be many more options.

 

[TehDoak]

So, you don't buy all the evidence that they use analytics because you don't like the decisions they made. Got it.

To flip this, what is the proof they have used it?

Have we added players that are advanced stats darlings? Defensive impacts? Offensive impacts? Since the creation of the office? I mean...i haven't seen it.

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

He could've added short term guys that didn't necessarily fit his criteria of young and long term. Vets who are there for the rise but not for the actual winning happen all the time.

Blackhawks 07-08 Robert Lang is a for-instance.

I think that brings in to question how the team would have performed had they made a move like that.

Had they brought in a more established vet, would they have seen the same level of progress from Quinn, Peterka, Krebs or even Mittelstadt or Cozens? Could those guys have had their minutes reduced because of this other player being on the roster? I think those guys got valuable experience this season and were given a lot of opportunity which should help them develop more quickly. Less games, or less minutes has the potential to slow down that development curve.

You could also say that person could have been in Josts spot, but in the case of Jost he seemed to be the spark plug that helped Mittelstadt get going when he was struggling with Olofsson. Again it's so difficult to say whether that would have happened with another player.

 

[Jim Bob]

No you are wrong, last summer he was not going to solve it, because it was a season of development and evaluation. Now this season has passed, he saw where we are and what we are capable of, that we have a good attack and there is potential for growth, but he also saw a problem in defense outside of the big three.

There are not many options in TDL and no UFA, plus prices seem higher. In the summer it will be easier to do this, as there will be many more options.

I don't know that things will be easier this summer. Especially since two options are no longer options.

And it still comes back to what Adams is willing to give up. If that doesn't change, then the roster is unlikely to change in a meaningful way.

 

[Fjordy]

I don't know that things will be easier this summer. Especially since two options are no longer options.

And it still comes back to what Adams is willing to give up. If that doesn't change, then the roster is unlikely to change in a meaningful way.

Well, there will be a UFA market and trades, I have already figured out about 30 options for a defenseman.

We don't need to significantly change roster, just add 1-2 players.

 

[Gabrielor]

I think that brings in to question how the team would have performed had they made a move like that.

Had they brought in a more established vet, would they have seen the same level of progress from Quinn, Peterka, Krebs or even Mittelstadt or Cozens? Could those guys have had their minutes reduced because of this other player being on the roster? I think those guys got valuable experience this season and were given a lot of opportunity which should help them develop more quickly. Less games, or less minutes has the potential to slow down that development curve.

You could also say that person could have been in Josts spot, but in the case of Jost he seemed to be the spark plug that helped Mittelstadt get going when he was struggling with Olofsson. Again it's so difficult to say whether that would have happened with another player.

In basically all cases, when I say 'bring in vets', I'm specifically talking about defense, not forward.

At forward, I understand what Adams did, and it largely worked.

 

[sxvnert]

I'm not convinced Adams or Granato can make the transition from the fun time attitude & freewheeling hockey and to serious focus on overall D. Adams should soak up every last minute of his hour long media Q&A sessions because next season fans won't accept anything less than the playoffs.

 

[Jim Bob]

To flip this, what is the proof they have used it?

Have we added players that are advanced stats darlings? Defensive impacts? Offensive impacts? Since the creation of the office? I mean...i haven't seen it.

Q&A: Sam Ventura, the man in charge of the Sabres' analytics department

"The goal is to bring it from where we finished last season, all the way up to the top," Ventura said.

buffalonews.com

 

[Chainshot]

To flip this, what is the proof they have used it?

Have we added players that are advanced stats darlings? Defensive impacts? Offensive impacts? Since the creation of the office? I mean...i haven't seen it.

Lyubushkin was among those last year who the statistas in various places were saying was a shrewd deadline move, one which Toronto made specifically. They also stated their internal stuff showed Stillman in Florida fit better with what they wanted to do in Buffalo than systems used in Chicago/Vancouver.

Neuchev at the draft was a player they pointed to as being a data find as well.

There has been no commenting with you in good faith though regarding this topic. We get it, you hate Adams.

 

[Jacob582]

I'm not convinced Adams or Granato can make the transition from the fun time attitude & freewheeling hockey and to serious focus on overall D. Adams should soak up every last minute of his hour long media Q&A sessions because next season fans won't accept anything less than the playoffs.

I question whether Granato can coach a veteran team. He's good at player development of younger players who are more easily moldable.