Player Discussion Kevin Shattenkirk

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Difference being, Shattenkirk is coming off knee surgery and hasn't even been given enough time between camp and the start of the season to get into any real rhythm. Sure, he's been terrible for where he should be but he can only go up.

There is no up for Marc Staal is a liability every second he's out there.
The thing with SK is this. He NEVER should have been playing on that knee. Had he not signed that FA deal he wouldn't have started the season. It's foolish pride and insecurity on his part and a really bad job by the Rangers medical staff and Groton that allowed him and probably pushed him to play. Bad job by his agent too for letting him get to the point he is at now.
 
"Shattenkirk is bad because deployment"

"Well, Yandle has some of heaviest defensive deployment in the league"

"Shows how useful those stats are nerd!"

You brought up those f***ing stats lol
 
The thing with SK is this. He NEVER should have been playing on that knee. Had he not signed that FA deal he wouldn't have started the season. It's foolish pride and insecurity on his part and a really bad job by the Rangers medical staff and Groton that allowed him and probably pushed him to play. Bad job by his agent too for letting him get to the point he is at now.

And not only have all these things possibly hurt his defensive play, but also never being a good defensive- defensemen might also be contributing to this.
 
Oiler fan coming in peace. I see Shattenkirk is a healthy scratch. Is he playing that bad? He got to pick where he wanted to go and makes 6.65 which is not too bad. Has he worn out his welcome in New York? Maybe him and Stanton ain't cut out for New York
 
Man Marc Staal must be quite the locker room vet. If and When he is scratched I will truly be shocked. Then again him in the lineup insures a top 5 pick I believe.

Is this a re-building year in New York? We play you guys Saturday. We are not looking good as well
 
Oiler fan coming in peace. I see Shattenkirk is a healthy scratch. Is he playing that bad? He got to pick where he wanted to go and makes 6.65 which is not too bad. Has he worn out his welcome in New York? Maybe him and Stanton ain't cut out for New York
I don't think he's worn out his welcome.....not quite yet, but he hasn't been anywhere near good enough and yes, we are young in the rebuild and IMO, never should have signed Shatty, if this was the route we were going to take. Unfortunately, Marc Staal is taking the brunt of the abuse here, Shatty has been getting a pass due to his injury last year and is probably trying to get in game shape......you know how that goes.
 
Oiler fan coming in peace. I see Shattenkirk is a healthy scratch. Is he playing that bad? He got to pick where he wanted to go and makes 6.65 which is not too bad. Has he worn out his welcome in New York? Maybe him and Stanton ain't cut out for New York
Shattenkirk hasn't been the worst D, but he hasn't been good.

I think him being scratched for at least tomorrow's game will be good. He knows he hasn't been good and admitted it. Him and Quinn have been communicating about what to do, which is encouraging.

The prevailing idea here, IMO, is that Shattenkirk is getting scratched because Quinn knows he'll respond/bounce back, whereas someone like Staal won't.

The optics aren't great in scratching your highest AAV defenseman, but he has a better chance of playing better because of it. Heck, Namestnikov looked good after coming back from bring scratched.

The beginning of the season will be rough because everyone is learning a new system and the coach is more vocal than the last, so it's an adjustment to be sure.
 
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"Shattenkirk is bad because deployment"

"Well, Yandle has some of heaviest defensive deployment in the league"
What does this even mean? Shattenkirk is bad due to deployment? What does that mean and who is arguing that? And what does Yandle having heavy deployment mean? Please elaborate
 
Shatty isn't known for his defense, but he has 321 points in 539 games. He had knee surgery last year so he missed a lot of time and it's probably a combination of he's not 100%, rust, adjusting to new coach, etc. Need to give it more than 3 games lol
 
Need to give it more than 3 games lol
Of course. But I think that the discussion seems to have shifted to those arguing that he is poor defensively and if not providing offense, he is net liability and those arguing that his defensive play (aside from this year) has been just fine. And whether or not his minutes have been and are sheltered.
 
I don't think he's worn out his welcome.....not quite yet, but he hasn't been anywhere near good enough and yes, we are young in the rebuild and IMO, never should have signed Shatty, if this was the route we were going to take. Unfortunately, Marc Staal is taking the brunt of the abuse here, Shatty has been getting a pass due to his injury last year and is probably trying to get in game shape......you know how that goes.

Staal has not looked good at all.
 
The coaching staff obviously expects more out of Shattenkirk and a night in the skybox is a way of encouraging that. At his worst, is he better than Staal? Sure. But benching Shattenkirk is taking the long-term approach, which is perfectly acceptable in a rebuilding year. Tomorrow night is not some playoff elimination game.
 
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In reality, he should probably be in the stands.

But I also think at this point the priority is to potentially light a fire under a player who is expected to play a bigger role on this team.

I'm also in the camp that is not keen to shift one of our RDs over to the left side.
I’m only good with shifting McQuaid to the left side, since he isn’t going to be here long.
 
It's clearly over your head and again, you brought it up.
How is it clearly over my head? I asked you where is someone arguing that Shattenkirk is bad defensively due to poor deployment. That is hardly a question that shows that something is over my head.

You then went ahead and claimed that due to "heavy deployment", Yandle is a shut down defenseman. I asked for you to explain what the term "heavy deployment" means. Again, not over my head but want to know what your parameters for such a term are. What I am ass-u-ming you did is go onto one of the metrics websites, be it Corsica or what have you, took one of the metrics and are now trumpeting it as evidence that Yandle is a shut down defenseman. You have not stated what metric you are using. Or what combination of metrics you are using. You have just stated a nebulous term called "heavy deployment" as your evidence.
 
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How is it clearly over my head? I asked you where is someone arguing that Shattenkirk is bad defensively due to poor deployment. That is hardly a question that shows that something is over my head.

You then went ahead and claimed that due to "heavy deployment", Yandle is a shut down defenseman. I asked for you to explain what the term "heavy deployment" means. Again, not over my head but want to know what your parameters for such a term are. What I am ass-u-ming you did is go onto one of the metrics websites, be it Corsica or what have you, took one of the metrics and are now trumpeting it as evidence that Yandle is a shut down defenseman. You have not stated what metric you are using. Or what combination of metrics you are using. You have just stated a nebulous term called "heavy deployment" as your evidence.
"It is hardly unfounded. The Blues did not want him out there during any defensive draws or against the opposition's top 6"

That's what you said. Yandle had a defensive draw rate of well over 50% and some of the hardest QoC in the league. There's nothing nebulous about it. It's the same standards you used.

You want to talk about deployment without looking up deployment and then get mad when somebody says you're wrong.

You use deployment to fit your argument and then laugh at the same metrics when they disagree with you.

If you don't understand deployment, don't use it. If you don't believe it's valid, don't use it.
 
That's what you said. Yandle had a defensive draw rate of well over 50% and some of the hardest QoC in the league. There's nothing nebulous about it. It's the same standards you used.

You want to talk about deployment without looking up deployment and then get mad when somebody says you're wrong.

You use deployment to fit your argument and then laugh at the same metrics when they disagree with you.
What you are trying to do, as always, is make a metric be the sole standard of judgement. That is faulty. You are excluding the obvious, that he was kept away at all opportunities for the opposition's top players and that are trying present a purely quantitative statistic while ignoring all qualitative evidence.

Going to guess here that you are using Offensive Zone Start ratio here or Zone Start Ratio. The former is faulty and the latter, while better, is not without its shares of issues. If it is the former, then you are including neutral zone face offs in your denominator. That will skew your numbers. If you were looking to compare the amount of offensive zone face offs to defensive zone face offs, then you would eliminate all neutral zone face offs from the equation. But of course, if you to be a shut down defenseman, how can you possible ignore play in the neutral zone?

Zone Start Ratio is not without its sets of issues. That is just for the start of the play. It does not measure when a player is pulled from the ice or when another player comes over the boards. So if a team gets called for icing, the coach has no choice but to keep the players on the ice, but can quickly remove them from the ice and put better defensive players on as soon as possible. It also does not account for shift time, as in how gassed the other players are and the coach has no choice but to keep certain players on the ice.

We could go on and on here, but the sole point that I am making is that utilizing a metric as the sole source of evidence does not a strong argument make. You need to take them with their grain of salt and occasionally use that hated thing of actually watching what is going on in the game to add to the depth of your argument. Otherwise, you get a completely laughable (truly no offense) result. Like Yandle being a shut down defenseman. I can't speak for everyone, but I would wager that NO ONE that works for the NHL sees Yandle as such a player.
 
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What you are trying to do, as always, is make a metric be the sole standard of judgement. That is faulty. You are excluding the obvious, that he was kept away at all opportunities for the opposition's top players and that are trying present a purely quantitative statistic while ignoring all qualitative evidence.

Going to guess here that you are using Offensive Zone Start ratio here or Zone Start Ratio. The former is faulty and the latter, while better, is not without its shares of issues. If it is the former, then you are including neutral zone face offs in your denominator. That will skew your numbers. If you were looking to compare the amount of offensive zone face offs to defensive zone face offs, then you would eliminate all neutral zone face offs from the equation. But of course, if you to be a shut down defenseman, how can you possible ignore play in the neutral zone?

Zone Start Ratio is not without its sets of issues. That is just for the start of the play. It does not measure when a player is pulled from the ice or when another player comes over the boards. So if a team gets called for icing, the coach has no choice but to keep the players on the ice, but can quickly remove them from the ice and put better defensive players on as soon as possible. It also does not account for shift time, as in how gassed the other players are and the coach has no choice but to keep certain players on the ice.

We could go on and on here, but the sole point that I am making is that utilizing a metric as the sole source of evidence does not a strong argument make. You need to take them with their grain of salt and occasionally use that hated thing of actually watching what is going on in the game to add to the depth of your argument. Otherwise, you get a completely laughable (truly no offense) result. Like Yandle being a shut down defenseman. I can't speak for everyone, but I would wager that NO ONE that works for the NHL sees Yandle as such a player.
Ok, great.

You brought it up.
 
What you are trying to do, as always, is make a metric be the sole standard of judgement. That is faulty. You are excluding the obvious, that he was kept away at all opportunities for the opposition's top players and that are trying present a purely quantitative statistic while ignoring all qualitative evidence.

Going to guess here that you are using Offensive Zone Start ratio here or Zone Start Ratio. The former is faulty and the latter, while better, is not without its shares of issues. If it is the former, then you are including neutral zone face offs in your denominator. That will skew your numbers. If you were looking to compare the amount of offensive zone face offs to defensive zone face offs, then you would eliminate all neutral zone face offs from the equation. But of course, if you to be a shut down defenseman, how can you possible ignore play in the neutral zone?

Zone Start Ratio is not without its sets of issues. That is just for the start of the play. It does not measure when a player is pulled from the ice or when another player comes over the boards. So if a team gets called for icing, the coach has no choice but to keep the players on the ice, but can quickly remove them from the ice and put better defensive players on as soon as possible. It also does not account for shift time, as in how gassed the other players are and the coach has no choice but to keep certain players on the ice.

We could go on and on here, but the sole point that I am making is that utilizing a metric as the sole source of evidence does not a strong argument make. You need to take them with their grain of salt and occasionally use that hated thing of actually watching what is going on in the game to add to the depth of your argument. Otherwise, you get a completely laughable (truly no offense) result. Like Yandle being a shut down defenseman. I can't speak for everyone, but I would wager that NO ONE that works for the NHL sees Yandle as such a player.

Yandle's most commonly faced forwards among division teams last year:

Toronto: Marner
Boston: Pastrnak
Buffalo: Eichel
Montreal: Drouin
Ottawa: Duchene
Tampa: Kucherov
Detroit: Larkin

This is a guy who is sheltered?

Conversely Petrovic on the same team...

Toronto: Bozak
Boston: Backes
Buffalo: Pominville
Montreal: Carr
Ottawa: Pyatt
Tampa: Johnson
Detroit: Zetterberg
 
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Ok, great.

You brought it up.
Still not understanding what person was arguing that Shattenkirk was poor due to bad deployment or why on earth anyone would consider Yandle shut down based on a sole metric. But whatever, keep on keeping on.
 
Still not understanding what person was arguing that Shattenkirk was poor due to bad deployment or why on earth anyone would consider Yandle shut down based on a sole metric. But whatever, keep on keeping on.
"It is hardly unfounded. The Blues did not want him out there during any defensive draws or against the opposition's top 6"

-you, yesterday.
 
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