Value of: Kevin Labanc

[Pinkfloyd]

I always look for comparables. Ask yourself, what would you give up to take on Tyler Johnson and his 5 million cap hit? Similar salary to Labanc. Better all around player that can play center and has less term. Then look at UFAs that might sign in that ballpark, Smith, Danault, Saad, Hyman, Wennberg, Hoffman, Coleman, Palmieri which all will cost no assets. Then look around the league and there are several teams that have a Kevin Labanc who's contract they would more than likely like to shed. Now, seriously, what would you give up to acquire Labanc if he weren't on the sharks? And that is your answer. For me, that answer is "not much".

Operating revenue is down nearly 70%. The expansion and tv contracts were a lifeline, and things will be better soon, but it will take some time, and i don't think this offseason will be a high-spending free for all.

As for Seattle vs Vegas, looking at potential expansion draft lists, I don't see anyone exposing a 30 goal center the way Tallon did. I also am willing to bet a lot of my life savings that they won't be able to draft a guy that scored six goals and have him go on to score 43 and 78 points their first year. Nor do i expect them to be able to trade a 4th for a guy that would score 60 points in 67 games (Tallon gonna Tallon). Lastly, i just don't think they will get a stanley cup winning goaltender that is still playing at the top of his game that will finish top 5 in Vezina votes. I think vegas was a fluke. Francis could build a team that might finish outside of the bottom 10, but probably isn't a playoff team, and with the next two drafts being what they are, I doubt he takes that route.

You are definitely one of the most rational Shark's fans that post in the trade forum, and I often agree with your perspectives, but I think I am just going to say I have to agree to disagree today, but i do appreciate your respectful and well supported arguments. Cheers )

Comparing 30 year old Tyler Johnson with a full NTC to 25 year old Kevin Labanc with no such restrictions is too stark a difference for it to be useful in this context. You're also vastly underestimating the amount of spots available. If my team had a need for a top six winger that was going to have solid term and pay for his production, I'd pay the going rate for such a trade. There is always a demand for top six wingers especially when a few of them will be selected by Seattle.

You're also going into far too many specifics as if that's the only recipe for team success. Seattle just needs to be third in the Pacific and make the playoffs. You say they won't get this or that on players but in a flat cap time, I'm sure teams want to shed salary and willing to move good players to make that happen.

 

[Irie]

Comparing 30 year old Tyler Johnson with a full NTC to 25 year old Kevin Labanc with no such restrictions is too stark a difference for it to be useful in this context. You're also vastly underestimating the amount of spots available. If my team had a need for a top six winger that was going to have solid term and pay for his production, I'd pay the going rate for such a trade. There is always a demand for top six wingers especially when a few of them will be selected by Seattle.

You're also going into far too many specifics as if that's the only recipe for team success. Seattle just needs to be third in the Pacific and make the playoffs. You say they won't get this or that on players but in a flat cap time, I'm sure teams want to shed salary and willing to move good players to make that happen.

It's just a hypothetical of players with similar contracts that bring similar aspects to their teams, so the NTC is irrelevant.

If Labanc is in your top 6, you probably aren't a playoff team. His first couple of seasons, he hustled and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time The past two seasons Labanc has been pretty disappointing. He regularly gets the third or fourth most PP time of forwards on the team, and the results have been subpar. He's just not a top 6 player on a contender, even though he is paid like one. Defensively, he's not a great fit as a third or fourth line PP specialist, and he can't PK, so if he's playing that roll, someone from the top line has to play those extra minutes. Personally, i don't like his game. I don't think he is the kind of player you win with.

Most teams are looking for guys that are value contracts right, as many of them aren't spending the cap. San Jose absolutely needs a "top six winger that was going to have solid term and pay for his production"(your words) right now. Problem is, Labanc is not bringing that, that is why there is discussion about moving him on the sharks board. Maybe some GM won't do their homework and look at what he produced 3 years ago and hope for similar results, but buyer beware.

 

[HolyGhost]

my guess his value is greater to the the Sharks than that which a team would be willing to give up

 

[Irie]

my guess his value is greater to the the Sharks than that which a team would be willing to give up

Maybe, but with 9 guys making over 63 million, getting out of Labac's contract has some value to San Jose too.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's just a hypothetical of players with similar contracts that bring similar aspects to their teams, so the NTC is irrelevant.

If Labanc is in your top 6, you probably aren't a playoff team. His first couple of seasons, he hustled and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time The past two seasons Labanc has been pretty disappointing. He regularly gets the third or fourth most PP time of forwards on the team, and the results have been subpar. He's just not a top 6 player on a contender, even though he is paid like one. Defensively, he's not a great fit as a third or fourth line PP specialist, and he can't PK, so if he's playing that roll, someone from the top line has to play those extra minutes. Personally, i don't like his game. I don't think he is the kind of player you win with.

Most teams are looking for guys that are value contracts right, as many of them aren't spending the cap. San Jose absolutely needs a "top six winger that was going to have solid term and pay for his production"(your words) right now. Problem is, Labanc is not bringing that, that is why there is discussion about moving him on the sharks board. Maybe some GM won't do their homework and look at what he produced 3 years ago and hope for similar results, but buyer beware.

Except it's entirely relevant. Clauses decrease trade value. The Labanc claim about not being a playoff team isn't backed by any evidence. He's a solid top six winger. I agree he sucks on the power play but his even strength play is plenty good enough for the role. Teams also don't use checking third lines much anymore.

And no the Sharks don't need that because they have an abundance of wingers that are knocking on the door. That's why he's available in this context. The Sharks though aren't in some hurry to move him either so you pay their price or move on.

 

[HolyGhost]

Maybe, but with 9 guys making over 63 million, getting out of Labac's contract has some value to San Jose too.

Is he worth 4.75mill is the question?

 

[Irie]

Is he worth 4.75mill is the question?

I don't think anyone on here is arguing if he is worth 4.75 million for the next 3 seasons. Everyone seems to be in agreement that he is overpaid. The argument is how much is he overpaid, and how does that over-payment affect his value.

 

[Sota Popinski]

Maybe, but with 9 guys making over 63 million, getting out of Labac's contract has some value to San Jose too.

He can be bought out for next to nothing

 

[Irie]

Except it's entirely relevant. Clauses decrease trade value.

But the question was just "what would you give up for him", not what is he worth. It was just a hypothetical, so assume the NTC was waived.

It is obvious you value Labanc a lot more than I do, so it is probably a bad comparison in your eyes, and that is certainly fair. For me, I feel that for this upcoming season, if i had to pick one or the other and was hoping to compete, I'd take Johnson, but I certainly wouldnt give up anything for him with that cap hit, which should put the value i have for Labanc into perspective.

Everyone know's Labanc's contract is really a five year 4 mil/per year deal that was a handshake between him and Wilson to make things work that year they were really tight against the cap (a one year deal for peanuts, then 4 years at 4.75) But now that he is playing poorly, his 4.75 instead of 4 cap hit is actually even worse than it originally looked.

 

[lawrence]

Give ya Matthew highmore for him. Overpaid but I like his playoff game.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

But the question was just "what would you give up for him", not what is he worth. It was just a hypothetical, so assume the NTC was waived.

It is obvious you value Labanc a lot more than I do, so it is probably a bad comparison in your eyes, and that is certainly fair. For me, I feel that for this upcoming season, if i had to pick one or the other and was hoping to compete, I'd take Johnson, but I certainly wouldnt give up anything for him with that cap hit, which should put the value i have for Labanc into perspective.

Everyone know's Labanc's contract is really a five year 4 mil/per year deal that was a handshake between him and Wilson to make things work that year they were really tight against the cap (a one year deal for peanuts, then 4 years at 4.75) But now that he is playing poorly, his 4.75 instead of 4 cap hit is actually even worse than it originally looked.

The NTC still impacts trade value whether it's waived or not. What I would give up for someone is situational. My team doesn't need wingers but if it did, I'd give up a 2nd and a prospect of decent value to get him under most circumstances. His contract isn't poor value and he provides worth on the ice. Again comparing two players with a huge age difference and clause circumstances isn't going to put things in the proper perspective. If you think they're comparable then you're either not doing due diligence to understand those differences or fundamentally misunderstand trade value.

 

[Irie]

He can be bought out for next to nothing

How much does Plattner own of the club now? Not sure the entire group would view 5.3 million as nothing, but maybe it is just chump change to them.

But honestly, 1 million of dead cap space for six years isn't great, especially for a team that would have around 23 million of cap to fill 15 roster spots. And in December that number jumps to almost 12 million, or 2 mil per for 6 years.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

How much does Plattner own of the club now? Not sure the entire group would view 5.3 million as nothing, but maybe it is just chump change to them.

But honestly, 1 million of dead cap space for six years isn't great, especially for a team that would have around 23 million of cap to fill 15 roster spots. And in December that number jumps to almost 12 million, or 2 mil per for 6 years.

All of it. He's already been a part of some buyouts but Labanc is nowhere near that point so what does it matter?

 

[DisbeliefInDW]

TJ is a great comparison. Far better player than Labanc and only 250k more, still cleared waivers. Could see MAYBE 1-2 teams picking him up if it were to go that route, but there realistically aren't any teams probably wanting to trade for him.

Not sure why OP even posted this here. It's already basically been discussed that he has little to no value and won't be going anywhere regardless.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

TJ is a great comparison. Far better player than Labanc and only 250k more, still cleared waivers. Could see MAYBE 1-2 teams picking him up if it were to go that route, but there realistically aren't any teams probably wanting to trade for him.

Not sure why OP even posted this here. It's already basically been discussed that he has little to no value and won't be going anywhere regardless.

The amount of people who agree with you are an extreme minority.

 

[themelkman]

Nate Schmidt straight up.

Straight up into the sun?

 

[Irie]

The NTC still impacts trade value whether it's waived or not.

Again comparing two players with a huge age difference and clause circumstances isn't going to put things in the proper perspective. If you think they're comparable then you're either not doing due diligence to understand those differences or fundamentally misunderstand trade value.

I really don't mean to come across as condescending here, but somehow you aren't grasping the term hypothetical. The hypothetical situation was that the NTC was waived. it does not exist. There is no difference in clause circumstances if there is no clause.

As for age - both players are UFAs at the end of their deals, and neither is likely to be re-signed. i doubt either player drops off much quality wise due to age. Johnson for 2 years, Labanc for 3. They are both overpriced players with similar cap hits so they were easy to relate for the perceived value analogy.

You may think Johnson is going to need a wheelchair soon due to being 31 next season and argue age is a huge factor, but to me, secondary, soon to be UFA role players values are mostly dictated by what they currently bring vs the cap hit they cost - seeing as team turnover in this league is so high (Sharks have what, a total of 5 players that have been on the team for the past 5 years?) These types of guys rarely re-sign, and currently Labanc and Johnson bring something similar to the team they are on, granted, they are used somewhat differently which affects their point totals in Labanc's favor(more ice time, more of a scoring role, more PP time), but bottom line, yes there is 5 years difference between them, but i dont see either player drastically regressing in the remaining timeframe of their current contracts with their respective teams, and they both ticked enough of the relevant boxes that i felt they made decent comparables.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I really don't mean to come across as condescending here, but somehow you aren't grasping the term hypothetical. The hypothetical situation was that the NTC was waived. it does not exist. There is no difference in clause circumstances if there is no clause.

As for age - both players are UFAs at the end of their deals, and neither is likely to be re-signed. i doubt either player drops off much quality wise due to age. Johnson for 2 years, Labanc for 3. They are both overpriced players with similar cap hits so they were easy to relate for the perceived value analogy.

You may think Johnson is going to need a wheelchair soon due to being 31 next season and argue age is a huge factor, but to me, secondary, soon to be UFA role players values are mostly dictated by what they currently bring vs the cap hit they cost - seeing as team turnover in this league is so high (Sharks have what, a total of 5 players that have been on the team for the past 5 years?) These types of guys rarely re-sign, and currently Labanc and Johnson bring something similar to the team they are on, granted, they are used somewhat differently which affects their point totals in Labanc's favor(more ice time, more of a scoring role, more PP time), but bottom line, yes there is 5 years difference between them, but i dont see either player drastically regressing in the remaining timeframe of their current contracts with their respective teams, and they both ticked enough of the relevant boxes that i felt they made decent comparables.

It's because you're trying to wave away something that absolutely has an impact on trade values to make a point about someone's trade value. I'm sorry but if you're going to make comparisons, it needs to be apples to apples for it to make logical sense. The other huge difference is that Tyler Johnson was waived and cleared. Labanc hasn't. The reason why that happened is because Tampa at the time wanted to lose the whole cap figure. The Sharks are in no such position so they have more leverage for what you perceive is a similar valued player. That changes how these deals get done. The Sharks won't need to lose Labanc to become cap compliant next season like Tampa does with Johnson plus others.

You're trying way too hard to oversimplify two situations that aren't similar in the slightest. Labanc is a top six winger on a bad team. Tyler Johnson is a 3C on a great team. Why would you start with thinking they're similar?

 

[Kcoyote3]

If you’re not on an ELC or a superstar contract you’re essentially a cap dump on hfboards. No players have value outside of those two entities

 

[Irie]

If you’re not on an ELC or a superstar contract you’re essentially a cap dump on hfboards. No players have value outside of those two entities

Labanc is a defensively deficient, low hockey IQ, 40 point winger who can't kill penalties, can't produce on the powerplay, who's 5 on 5 play leaves a lot to be desired, making almost 5 million per season for the next three years. That is why he has little to no value.

The rational posters on the Sharks forum that watch him every game see this and want to get out of his contract.

You can blame hfboards all you want, but that won't change the facts. Labanc is depth player that can play up the lineup in a pinch, but isn't a great option to be consistently in the top 6, and is overpayed by more than 30%. If he made 3 mil per, he'd probably have some value, but at close to 5, his value sucks.

Meier at 6 million only score 3 more points than Labanc, but he brings a lot more to the team than just points. He is a pain in the ass for the opposition to play against. Tyler Toffoli signed for 4 mil last offseason with the Habs. While his scoring was up this season, he is typically around a .5 point per game guy, but he brings a lot more than points, so even when he isn't scoring, he adds value, and he is 3 times the player Labanc is at nearly 20 percent less cap hit.

 

[DisbeliefInDW]

Labanc is a defensively deficient, low hockey IQ, 40 point winger who can't kill penalties, can't produce on the powerplay, who's 5 on 5 play leaves a lot to be desired, making almost 5 million per season for the next three years. That is why he has little to no value.

The rational posters on the Sharks forum that watch him every game see this and want to get out of his contract.

You can blame hfboards all you want, but that won't change the facts. Labanc is depth player that can play up the lineup in a pinch, but isn't a great option to be consistently in the top 6, and is overpayed by more than 30%. If he made 3 mil per, he'd probably have some value, but at close to 5, his value sucks.

Meier at 6 million only score 3 more points than Labanc, but he brings a lot more to the team than just points. He is a pain in the ass for the opposition to play against. Tyler Toffoli signed for 4 mil last offseason with the Habs. While his scoring was up this season, he is typically around a .5 point per game guy, but he brings a lot more than points, so even when he isn't scoring, he adds value, and he is 3 times the player Labanc is at nearly 20 percent less cap hit.

But but but Advanced Stats!

Yea he's not good at all, but you're speaking into a void with Sharks fans, at least on this website. I see him rightfully destroyed on twitter every night the Sharks play, but on here he's inexcusably praised for god knows what reason. I see a lot of people saying stuff like "HF values x over x", and I can say with absolute certainty the SJS fans on here value points, or any high numbers, over anything else. And if a player doesn't have high numbers, there is a reason why its NOT their fault

 

[Irie]

It's because you're trying to wave away something that absolutely has an impact on trade values to make a point about someone's trade value. I'm sorry but if you're going to make comparisons, it needs to be apples to apples for it to make logical sense. The other huge difference is that Tyler Johnson was waived and cleared. Labanc hasn't. The reason why that happened is because Tampa at the time wanted to lose the whole cap figure. The Sharks are in no such position so they have more leverage for what you perceive is a similar valued player. That changes how these deals get done. The Sharks won't need to lose Labanc to become cap compliant next season like Tampa does with Johnson plus others.

You're trying way too hard to oversimplify two situations that aren't similar in the slightest. Labanc is a top six winger on a bad team. Tyler Johnson is a 3C on a great team. Why would you start with thinking they're similar?

Johnson played more wing than center this season, and he typically plays on the wing when he is playing in the top 6.

The question was not "what is his value". It was what would you give up to add this player to your team. Just a simple hypothetical to develop a base perspective for players with a certain skillset and caphit. It was a bad analogy anyhow, as Johnson is a much more versatile and smarter player than Labanc, so the comparison was bad to begin with, but I just pulled a UFA aged player that played some top six minutes with similar stats that had a similiar cap hit and was perceived as overpayed off the top of my head.

Finding an apples to apples player to labanc is difficult. Not many GMs have paid one dimensional wingers that get a lot of PP time and only score 40 points 5 million per. I am guessing the list is extremely limited on comparables that would meet that criteria.

 

[Hodge]

Labanc is a better player than some ITT are making him out to be but it's pretty indisputable that he's overpaid by about 25% just like almost every other significant player Doug Wilson has signed over the last five years. And he's just not a valuable enough piece to justify the overpayment to most teams. That said there should be teams with cap space and a need for scoring wingers (New Jersey comes to mind) willing to give up at least a 2nd rounder and another asset.

If I'm the Sharks I'm holding on to Labanc for at least another season to see if you can juice his counting stats a bit before moving him.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I always look for comparables. Ask yourself, what would you give up to take on Tyler Johnson and his 5 million cap hit? Similar salary to Labanc. Better all around player that can play center and has less term. Then look at UFAs that might sign in that ballpark, Smith, Danault, Saad, Hyman, Wennberg, Hoffman, Coleman, Palmieri which all will cost no assets. Then look around the league and there are several teams that have a Kevin Labanc who's contract they would more than likely like to shed. Now, seriously, what would you give up to acquire Labanc if he weren't on the sharks? And that is your answer. For me, that answer is "not much".

Operating revenue is down nearly 70%. The expansion and tv contracts were a lifeline, and things will be better soon, but it will take some time, and i don't think this offseason will be a high-spending free for all.

As for Seattle vs Vegas, looking at potential expansion draft lists, I don't see anyone exposing a 30 goal center the way Tallon did. I also am willing to bet a lot of my life savings that they won't be able to draft a guy that scored six goals and have him go on to score 43 and 78 points their first year. Nor do i expect them to be able to trade a 4th for a guy that would score 60 points in 67 games (Tallon gonna Tallon). Lastly, i just don't think they will get a stanley cup winning goaltender that is still playing at the top of his game that will finish top 5 in Vezina votes. I think vegas was a fluke. Francis could build a team that might finish outside of the bottom 10, but probably isn't a playoff team, and with the next two drafts being what they are, I doubt he takes that route.

You are definitely one of the most rational Shark's fans that post in the trade forum, and I often agree with your perspectives, but I think I am just going to say I have to agree to disagree today, but i do appreciate your respectful and well supported arguments. Cheers )

^^ This.

 

[Mister Wedge]

Labanc is a defensively deficient, low hockey IQ, 40 point winger who can't kill penalties, can't produce on the powerplay, who's 5 on 5 play leaves a lot to be desired, making almost 5 million per season for the next three years. That is why he has little to no value.

The rational posters on the Sharks forum that watch him every game see this and want to get out of his contract.

You can blame hfboards all you want, but that won't change the facts. Labanc is depth player that can play up the lineup in a pinch, but isn't a great option to be consistently in the top 6, and is overpayed by more than 30%. If he made 3 mil per, he'd probably have some value, but at close to 5, his value sucks.

Meier at 6 million only score 3 more points than Labanc, but he brings a lot more to the team than just points. He is a pain in the ass for the opposition to play against. Tyler Toffoli signed for 4 mil last offseason with the Habs. While his scoring was up this season, he is typically around a .5 point per game guy, but he brings a lot more than points, so even when he isn't scoring, he adds value, and he is 3 times the player Labanc is at nearly 20 percent less cap hit.

Summed up my thoughts on Labanc very nicely here, well done!