Kesler puts Detroit on a list of teams he'd like to be traded to | UPD: Kesler to ANA

[The Zetterberg Era]

They don't have to trade the entire farm, but maybe the barn and a few of the fields. I don't want Datsyuk going down with the same average results Lidstrom had at the end.

Sorry Benchy but I hate this logic. I root for the front of the sweater, if the kids get them back there great. If not, well Pavel and Hank you need to be working tirelessly with these kids to get them there. Now you don't bury your head in the sand if the right deals are there to be had.

But we don't owe Datsyuk or Zetterberg anything, they got to experience glory, building the next generation is something the guys in front of them helped with. It is on them to help play a role in these guys become the solution. Also quite frankly they haven't stayed healthy enough for these kind of swings which makes it really that much worse in my opinion. Be one thing to take that swing thinking you would have a healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but we just cannot count on that. Our young guys are the future and really a big part of the present already. Selling some of them makes sense because of the crush of talent coming. But that needs to be done carefully and selling the barn and a couple of the fields just for D and Z isn't a good idea in my opinion.

 

[Bench]

Sorry Benchy but I hate this logic. I root for the front of the sweater, if the kids get them back there great. If not, well Pavel and Hank you need to be working tirelessly with these kids to get them there. Now you don't bury your head in the sand if the right deals are there to be had.

But we don't owe Datsyuk or Zetterberg anything, they got to experience glory, building the next generation is something the guys in front of them helped with. It is on them to help play a role in these guys become the solution. Also quite frankly they haven't stayed healthy enough for these kind of swings which makes it really that much worse in my opinion. Be one thing to take that swing thinking you would have a healthy Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but we just cannot count on that. Our young guys are the future and really a big part of the present already. Selling some of them makes sense because of the crush of talent coming. But that needs to be done carefully and selling the barn and a couple of the fields just for D and Z isn't a good idea in my opinion.

I don't think we owe them anything.

But as a fan, I'd be just fine if we sold some young players and prospects to bring in talent like Kesler to help compete now. That's where I'm at with it. I'm not too good at thinking 5 years down the road when it comes to my hockey watching, I'll admit.

 

[ap3x]

So, what would you be willing to give in return?

 

[Retire91]

I see what holland is doing as the general management equivalent of a family living on payday loans. If you have a strong foundation you can do it but if you keep doing it eventually your foundation erodes and you end up paying more in interest then your rent payment. You cant keep trading away the future for a questionable now. Quincey was an overpayment, legwand was an overpayment, I can't imagine what holland would give up for Kessler. People talk about one or two pieces not being a big deal but I question that line of thinking. Quincey and Legwand cost a first and a second. Just because the wings pick in the project player area of the draft doesn't mean they should be pissed away. Its not like he is trading for franchise players. He is trading and signing other teams sloppy seconds while loosing a pick here and a prospect there.

When the team was stacked this worked because sloppy seconds were simply support or role players with less responsibility where they could thrive. Now he is trying to fit sloppy seconds into key positions on the team. Holland's style of management has petered out. He is good at extending a stacked team's run but he is not good at building a new foundation.

the whole "lets do it for zetterberg Daytsuk" philospohy is much like vietnam. We dont even have enough farm to sell to make this team condendors in the remainder of their career. But holland wil keep trading and signing sloppy seconds until they retire. And when they retire, dead wings 2.0

 

[SoupNazi]

the whole "lets do it for zetterberg Daytsuk" philospohy is much like vietnam. We dont even have enough farm to sell to make this team condendors in the remainder of their career. But holland wil keep trading and signing sloppy seconds until they retire. And when they retire, dead wings 2.0

Yep. All of our kids are worthless, you know?

 

[icKx]

The time to go 'all in' and trade youth for players was three or four years ago when we still had Nick and D & Z weren't so busted up.

The Cup window is done, we haven't drafted any gems (save Mantha and maybe Mrazek) in a while now, we struck out on the one UFA who could have kept us competitive -- Suter.

Gonna have to tank like all the rest.

 

[Retire91]

Yep. All of our kids are worthless, you know?

LOL I don't mean that. But are Jurco/Sheanen going to be game breakers at the NHL level? Nyquist is the closest I have seen to someone that has the potential to fill Zetts and Daytsuks shoes and I don't see anyone on defense that is clearly going to be an elite top pairing pairing yet. I would mark the kids at this point as serviceable but the only elite potential I see is in Nyquist, Mantha, and Mrazek. Its a product of constantly tweaking to make the playoffs yet be short of contention. You rarely if ever pick in the top half of the first round and it doesn't help that Holland is willing to trade first rounders for someone like Quincey.

So are you prepared for one or two of Mantha, Nyquist, Mrazek + a first round pick for someone like Kessler? Basically just to fill in for who will likely be an injured Daytsuk or Zetterberg or both going into the playoffs with the same exact defense (maybe + Dan Boyle) Count me out on that plan.

 

[AD1066]

So are you prepared for one or two of Mantha, Nyquist, Mrazek + a first round pick for someone like Kessler? Basically just to fill in for who will likely be an injured Daytsuk or Zetterberg or both going into the playoffs with the same exact defense (maybe + Dan Boyle) Count me out on that plan.

The time to go 'all in' and trade youth for players was three or four years ago when we still had Nick and D & Z weren't so busted up.

The Cup window is done, we haven't drafted any gems (save Mantha and maybe Mrazek) in a while now, we struck out on the one UFA who could have kept us competitive -- Suter.

Gonna have to tank like all the rest.

I also think we missed the boat on this one. The current UFA crop is uninspiring to say the least and I'm don't know if I'm prepared to give up the required assets for Kesler, Boyle, and a 2nd round playoff exit. (Boyle is mostly an opportunity cost). We didn't time our push correctly and now it's likely too little too late outside of maybe a dark horse run.

I would like to see Datsyuk and Zetterberg win another one as much as anyone, but the present roster is structurally deficient in a number of areas and we'd have to exchange significant future assets for a short-term fix if we truly want to compete against teams like LAK, CHI, BOS, STL, ANA.

I don't agree though (at least currently) that a tank is necessary. It's all going to come down to our next two drafts in particular and the unknown trajectories of Mantha, Oullet, Sproul, Backman, and co.

Time to find out if scouting is still worthy of their reputation.

 

[ap3x]

It's not as if trading valuable assets for Kesler and one of the discussed D-men would transform our rooster in a serious contender at a moment's notice.
Let alone when only trading for Kesler and leaving unfinished business in our defense behind.

Not that I won't like to see a guy like Kesler playing for us, but the assets in return should be appropriate in terms of not destroying our prospective potential.
Otherweise I'd rather not trade for him. And as it's most likely that the 'nucks demand way too much, (I hope) it won't happen... Unless Holland's all in for a ****ing surprise...

 

[19 for president]

I'm strangely (knowing myself) not nearly so pessimistic about this roster. I think with a few tweaks on D and the kids continuing to improve, that this team could surprise quite a few next year. I don't see our window as closed. If we go out and acquire a puck moving top 4 dman, get a healthy Z/Dats/Ericsson back then I think this team competes as early as next season. Wings fans aren't used to relying on youth but a lot of teams have, and we have the vets to supplement that.

With that said I still don't think we need or necessarily want Kesler. A young Kesler sure, but this is an older Kesler that is already breaking down. He isn't worth the assets we'd need to give up, because those assets are key to our rebuild long term. Tats and Nyquist are already there offensively. Sheahan is similar defensively and size wise, and Jurco/Mantha have way more potential. As a short term player, Kesler does not fill a need on this team. Edler does, because we need a top 4 puckmover both short term and long. Short term the Wings don't really need another center and long term Kesler isn't going to be around.

 

[Chance on Chance]

I'm strangely (knowing myself) not nearly so pessimistic about this roster. I think with a few tweaks on D and the kids continuing to improve, that this team could surprise quite a few next year. I don't see our window as closed. If we go out and acquire a puck moving top 4 dman, get a healthy Z/Dats/Ericsson back then I think this team competes as early as next season. Wings fans aren't used to relying on youth but a lot of teams have, and we have the vets to supplement that.

With that said I still don't think we need or necessarily want Kesler. A young Kesler sure, but this is an older Kesler that is already breaking down. He isn't worth the assets we'd need to give up, because those assets are key to our rebuild long term. Tats and Nyquist are already there offensively. Sheahan is similar defensively and size wise, and Jurco/Mantha have way more potential. As a short term player, Kesler does not fill a need on this team. Edler does, because we need a top 4 puckmover both short term and long. Short term the Wings don't really need another center and long term Kesler isn't going to be around.

Problem is there is 4 or 5 in the east other teams that can say the same thing.

 

[probertANDernie]

Problem is there is 4 or 5 in the east other teams that can say the same thing.

True, but with the Wings I actually buy it. Most of the games I watched that the Wings lost was due to blowing leads in the third period. If Holland does address the blue line and we get a year of health for the Euro twins it could do this team a world of good.

(Lot of ifs, I know)

 

[BSHH]

Problem is there is 4 or 5 in the east other teams that can say the same thing.

The bigger problem is that some of those teams will not hesitate or balk when there is an opportunity to acquire good players. In Detroit, Holland publicly whines about high-profile UFAs demanding substantial payments. Since they finally seem to have some talented younger (and therefore cheaper) players to bring up, the Red Wings easily can and definitely should afford to fill their two main roster holes with UFAs - preferably those, who still will be assets after one season.

Gruß,
BSHH

 

[Kyleftlx]

The bigger problem is that some of those teams will not hesitate or balk when there is an opportunity to acquire good players. In Detroit, Holland publicly whines about high-profile UFAs demanding substantial payments. Since they finally seem to have some talented younger (and therefore cheaper) players to bring up, the Red Wings easily can and definitely should afford to fill their two main roster holes with UFAs - preferably those, who still will be assets after one season.

Gruß,
BSHH

Detroit's in the best position they've ever been in probably since the original lockout to bring in talented pieces and actually make competitive bids on the free agent market. There is a ton of money left over as a result of all of the ELC's on the roster, and if Detroit can move out a player or two, that's even more money freed up. You look at the prospect of adding a guy like Niskanen, bringing in maybe even another defenseman via trade or signing a forward to replace Alfredsson and this team really isn't too far away from being the cup favorite. Honestly, it's not like Detroit's core isn't competitive as it stands... it just needs a piece or two to really succeed. If Weiss can come back healthy and effective, that's going to mean that much more for this team.

 

[Retire91]

Dude that is nuts, take a look at a roster like Boston, Chicago, LA, Anaheim. This team is far removed as a cup favorite. Not saying they couldn't do some damage in the right circumstance but thinking a couple of free agents is the difference between hanging with those teams is nuts. The UFA market is too thin and the NHL transition for the prospects is still on the plate because they spent too much time in the AHL.

2-3 more prospects would need to make a Nyquist like jump from prospect to star next season. We don't even know if Nyquist will be consistant.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Let's look at LA.

Second line has Pearson and Toffoli on it right now. Analogous to Jurco-Datsyuk-Nyquist. First line, big name guy in Kopitar. We have zetterberg, and then wingers like Franzen and Tatar. Sign a Matt Moulson, and yeah, our offense isn't that far off LA's.

Defense, you've got one of the kids that can step in and make a difference. Smith, if he takes the right steps, can be our voynov. Trade for Edler or Ehrhoff or a good RH dman like Buff and yeah, our defense isn't that far off either.

Howard had a bad season. He'll rebound next year, and yeah, we're not far behind in net either.

Really, with one or two trades and FA signings along with good personnel management, we're only a slight notch below a team like LA

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I mean, Jurco absolutely has game breaking potential. We have 3 potential first line wingers in Mantha, Nyquist, and Jurco. We have several very talented blue line prospects. If we can find an elite young center, we're golden.

 

[Retire91]

I mean, Jurco absolutely has game breaking potential. We have 3 potential first line wingers in Mantha, Nyquist, and Jurco. We have several very talented blue line prospects. If we can find an elite young center, we're golden.

Yeah but the problem is to obtain an elite young center or elite D you are parting with players like Mantha, Nyquist, Jurco or a handful of first round picks. So its still a situation where you gut the future for bolstering a questionable roster now. To make this roster competative now there is no way to do it without wiping out the future, save for another string of luck in the draft.

 

[Bench]

With all the criticism Holland gets here, I'm pretty surprised I'm one of the few that wants him to actually be more aggressive now.

I honestly don't buy the "window is closed" thing. If the window is closed, then what's the point of even trying? This team can compete and it's not as far away as some people are saying. One good player can change your whole offensive attack: look at the Rangers.

As for a guy like Kesler, first off, if he's to command Nyquist and Mantha, well of course I don't move for him. I don't think the trade would be that rich. Second off, he absolutely turns this team into a contender again. You're talking about a gritty 2-way player with goal scoring. That's what the doctor ordered. He's a shut down player. He wins draws if you need it. Can PK. Shoots right. Hits. It's exactly what Detroit has been missing for years and he transforms the top 6.

Finally, the guy only turns 30 in August. He's pretty far from filing for AARP membership. If you think players decline at 33, 34, that's fine because that's exactly the time frame we have left with Datsyuk. After that point you reevaluate where you are and regroup.

And keep in mind this is more thought experiment than reality. Reality is pointing to Edler being the guy, not Kesler.

 

[ginner classic]

With all the criticism Holland gets here, I'm pretty surprised I'm one of the few that wants him to actually be more aggressive now.

I honestly don't buy the "window is closed" thing. If the window is closed, then what's the point of even trying? This team can compete and it's not as far away as some people are saying. One good player can change your whole offensive attack: look at the Rangers.

As for a guy like Kesler, first off, if he's to command Nyquist and Mantha, well of course I don't move for him. I don't think the trade would be that rich. Second off, he absolutely turns this team into a contender again. You're talking about a gritty 2-way player with goal scoring. That's what the doctor ordered. He's a shut down player. He wins draws if you need it. Can PK. Shoots right. Hits. It's exactly what Detroit has been missing for years and he transforms the top 6.

Finally, the guy only turns 30 in August. He's pretty far from filing for AARP membership. If you think players decline at 33, 34, that's fine because that's exactly the time frame we have left with Datsyuk. After that point you reevaluate where you are and regroup.

And keep in mind this is more thought experiment than reality. Reality is pointing to Edler being the guy, not Kesler.

Edler is off the market according to Linden

 

[Bench]

Edler is off the market according to Linden

Yes, that came to light after the post.

Well, given that, I think we can now cement Brian Boyle or Matt Niskanen into the lineup.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yes, that came to light after the post.

Well, given that, I think we can now cement Brian Boyle or Matt Niskanen into the lineup.

Wrong Boyle Bench, well unless you want another bottom 6 center.

 

[Bench]

Wrong Boyle Bench, well unless you want another bottom 6 center.

I've got Ranger fever, it would appear. I've been messing that up for weeks.

On the topic, looks like BRIAN Boyle has returned to grace with fans. There was a rocky period where he was considered a big waste of space, wasn't there? Now I see everybody singing his praises. Amazing what a good playoffs can do for you.

Gaborik, too. Streaky scorer? Well now he's playoff hero.

 

[Retire91]

Let's look at LA.

Second line has Pearson and Toffoli on it right now. Analogous to Jurco-Datsyuk-Nyquist. First line, big name guy in Kopitar. We have zetterberg, and then wingers like Franzen and Tatar. Sign a Matt Moulson, and yeah, our offense isn't that far off LA's.

Defense, you've got one of the kids that can step in and make a difference. Smith, if he takes the right steps, can be our voynov. Trade for Edler or Ehrhoff or a good RH dman like Buff and yeah, our defense isn't that far off either.

Howard had a bad season. He'll rebound next year, and yeah, we're not far behind in net either.

Really, with one or two trades and FA signings along with good personnel management, we're only a slight notch below a team like LA

You have to take into account the rest of the team though. Detroit's prospects are still a blank canvas, their role and skill level within the NHL is still uncertain. LA knows what they have and without knowing how far Detroit's prospects will progress LA's depth blows Detroit out of the water. Sure you can match the talent star for star for 3-4 players deep but after that LA's differences start becoming crystal clear. LA is a prefect example of a team that should reamin a buyer to stay competative season after season when you have that much depth and star power. Looks like some of their drafts have been home runs too so they might not even need to be buyers through their run.

I am with people that want to stay competative but its risky, there are no sure things on the market that won't cost a big chunk of the future. And additions would be to a roster that has injury concerns and largely unknown breakout levels and timing. Not saying it couldn't be done, just saying I don't think selling the future for now is a well calculated risk. Detroit should be thinking long term now. Thinking long term is different than tanking I don't support tanking. I'd rather aim high for the long term at this stage.

This season could be a turn around, if Howard bounces back and Weiss pans out that would be a big deal, this is a season where Detroit should find out what its prospects are made of before being buyers. If that means ending the streak so be it.

 

[SoupNazi]

Hope_Smoke
‏@Hope_Smoke
Kypreos "I'm hearing that Kesler is out there again and teams are looking at him"

Please not the Wings.