Kesler puts Detroit on a list of teams he'd like to be traded to | UPD: Kesler to ANA

[crashman]

If your objective is to improve defense to improve goal prevention, that's pointless because it already did a good job this year. If you'd actually read what I actually said, my objective is to improve the team's puck possession by replacing Brian Lashoff and Jakub Kindl with much better puck possession Dmen. In that regard, the Dcorps can be improved.

In this regard, you are building up strawmen to knock down against fancystats.

You're the one saying defense isn't a problem, then saying we need to replace Kindl and Lashoff. I understand what you're getting at, but when you say "The Defense was never an issue", it gets somewhat confusing.

Our defense is terrible, and I agree with others that puck possession starts from the back-end. You can't replace guys like Lidstrom and Rafalski with Smith, Quincey, Ericsson, etc. and expect to continue rolling. The team has been playing the "play not to lose" style since Lidstrom retired. It's not fun to watch as a fan, and it's ever going to make you a contender. I know they've been decent on to PK at times, but we've also been the most injured team the last 2 seasons, so what does that tell you?

 

[SoupNazi]

If your objective is to improve defense to improve goal prevention, that's pointless because it already did a good job this year. If you'd actually read what I actually said, my objective is to improve the team's puck possession by replacing Brian Lashoff and Jakub Kindl with much better puck possession Dmen. In that regard, the Dcorps can be improved.

In this regard, you are building up strawmen to knock down against fancystats.

So you're saying that our defense isn't good enough?

And your "fancystats" say that we were fifth in limiting shot events. Could we not get better at that with a better defenseman?

Would our defense as a WHOLE not improve with better players, despite the "fancystats" saying we're good enough?

 

[SoupNazi]

You're the one saying defense isn't a problem, then saying we need to replace Kindl and Lashoff. I understand what you're saying, but when you say "The Defense was never an issue", it gets somewhat confusing.

Our defense is terrible, and I agree with others that puck possession starts from the back-end. You can't replace guys like Lidstrom and Rafalski with Smith, Quincey, Ericsson, etc. and expect to continue rolling.

This sums up perfectly what I've been trying to say. PMDs are a valuable commodity and one of which we unfortunately do not have enough.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

if the defence is perfact then you dont need to move anybody out or anybody in.

if the defence is perfect then their is room for improvement, and the further from the best they're the more room their is

 

[JmanWingsFan]

So you're saying that our defense isn't good enough?

And your "fancystats" say that we were fifth in limiting shot events. Could we not get better at that with a better defenseman?

Would our defense as a WHOLE not improve with better players, despite the "fancystats" saying we're good enough?

No. Let me repeat myself for what seems like once a time too many.

Saying our defense in terms of goal prevention was terrible does not match up with what actually happened on the ice. In terms of limiting scoring chances, the defense was top five in the league. Can you improve on that? Sure. You can improve on anything until you're theoretically the best at everything. What's not to say you can't improve on some weak links even when you have great team defense. But to be sure, you are misidentifying an area that needs improvement.

Is that advisable, though? No. Why focus on improving a strength when you can improve a weakness, like puck possession. Focusing on adding puck possession on the back end help solve a team weakness. If you do that, you can also improve on a strength by replacing some weaker links on the

 

[19 for president]

If the Wings basically trap then yeah they can play good D, but kiss our offense goodbye. The Wings can limit shots, do ok on scoring chances, etc with this D style but that also means all of our forwards are back committing to D over offense. So instead of losing a game 6-3 we lose 2-0. When you have two healthy elite centers in Z and Dats this can almost be an effective strategy see the 12/13 playoffs, because they can score on their own. Take those two players out of the equation and you get this year, where we get rolled by a superior team.

The Wings spent far too much time in their own zone this year due to turnovers. They may have done an ok job covering up for this or keeping games close, but they expended a ton of energy. I honestly think all of the running around they did, is one of the main reasons they were always flat come the third period. They were consistently logging hard minutes in the first two periods, and still usually ended up down a goal or two.

 

[Johnz96*]

It's not a strawman. I asked you a legitimate question: should the Red Wings bother looking for an upgrade of Kindl and Lashoff? Would an upgrade not make us a better team?

I think Almquist and Marchenko would be an upgrade. I would love to add a righty like Niskanen (At under $6m) or some toughness (with a RH shot and that can actually move the puck) like Bieksa or Gudas but Niskanen will probably end up getting more than $6m and you would have to overpay in a trade to get someone like Bieksa or Gudas. So you either overpay against the cap or in a trade.
I think it's time to roll with the youngens. The sooner you get them out there the sooner they will realize their potential.
I would do it at the right price but getting a Niskanen, Bieksa or Goudas will compromise the development of the youngens because it will afford them less opportunity.
The defense would be better if the coach employed them to their strengths.
Other than Kronwall Smith is the most capable of producing offense but hasn't been afforded the opportunity to do so. I think Babcock wants him to be a more complete player focusing on his weaknesses before unleashing him. I think it actually will make him a better hockey in the future sacrificing some wins in the past. I wouldn't have been as stringent about it.
Kindl is a fine 3rd pair d-man and Lashoff is a fine 7th but the Wings have 6 better d-men in GR that should have been utilized more

 

[Frk It]

I think Almquist and Marchenko would be an upgrade.

But how much of one? Enough to get us farther in the playoffs?

Almquist has gotten hurt the last 2 years in the playoffs. I think NHL playoff hockey would give him some issues.

 

[Johnz96*]

This sums up perfectly what I've been trying to say. PMDs are a valuable commodity and one of which we unfortunately do not have enough.

Kronwall, Smith and Dekeyser are very good puck movers.
Ericsson and Quincey aren't bad at it either.
Kindl is a good puck mover when he is on (unfortunately that's not all that often but I think that might have to do with coaching more than Kindl). Most of the defense is suited to playing a puck possession game but the coach prefers to play a dump and chase game.
They all would have been more effective puck movers if the coach employed his best available forwards rather than favouring ones that weren't nearly as good because of their size and/or experience.
I think given the opportunity Almquist might be the best puck mover of them all. Sproul, Backman, Marchenko, Ouellet and Jensen are all good at moving the puck as well and they need an opportunities at the NHL level to get experience.

 

[Johnz96*]

But how much of one? Enough to get us farther in the playoffs?

Almquist has gotten hurt the last 2 years in the playoffs. I think NHL playoff hockey would give him some issues.

But he managed to stay healthy through 2 much longer regular seasons.
I didn't see how he got hurt this yeart but last year it was a hit from behind into the boards, even big players get hurt on plays like that.

 

[InjuredChoker]

If the Wings basically trap then yeah they can play good D, but kiss our offense goodbye. The Wings can limit shots, do ok on scoring chances, etc with this D style but that also means all of our forwards are back committing to D over offense. So instead of losing a game 6-3 we lose 2-0. When you have two healthy elite centers in Z and Dats this can almost be an effective strategy see the 12/13 playoffs, because they can score on their own. Take those two players out of the equation and you get this year, where we get rolled by a superior team.

The Wings spent far too much time in their own zone this year due to turnovers. They may have done an ok job covering up for this or keeping games close, but they expended a ton of energy. I honestly think all of the running around they did, is one of the main reasons they were always flat come the third period. They were consistently logging hard minutes in the first two periods, and still usually ended up down a goal or two.

pretty much. babs doesn't trust this teams puck moving abilities as much so he's made them 'trap' a lot more. and it's not like they are stud without the puck either, except for few exceptions. he did that a lot last year, more so than at the start of this year. then when euro twins went down, he started doing it again a lot more.

bruins gave up more shot attempts but there isn't 100% correlation with scoring chances. just going by shot location (which isn't obviously perfect) bruins gave up less scoring chances. and they are obviously better defensively than the red wings.

 

[Frk It]

But he managed to stay healthy through 2 much longer regular seasons.
I didn't see how he got hurt this yeart but last year it was a hit from behind into the boards, even big players get hurt on plays like that.

I'm sure he'll do great in the playoffs next year...

In Sweden

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

As for Kesler to Wings ,, I think it would be best for Wings to continue with a more youth movement

Not sure the Wings should pay price the Nucks will want in youth for him

 

[Winger98]

I think Almquist and Marchenko would be an upgrade. I would love to add a righty like Niskanen (At under $6m) or some toughness (with a RH shot and that can actually move the puck) like Bieksa or Gudas but Niskanen will probably end up getting more than $6m and you would have to overpay in a trade to get someone like Bieksa or Gudas. So you either overpay against the cap or in a trade.
I think it's time to roll with the youngens. The sooner you get them out there the sooner they will realize their potential.
I would do it at the right price but getting a Niskanen, Bieksa or Goudas will compromise the development of the youngens because it will afford them less opportunity.
The defense would be better if the coach employed them to their strengths.
Other than Kronwall Smith is the most capable of producing offense but hasn't been afforded the opportunity to do so. I think Babcock wants him to be a more complete player focusing on his weaknesses before unleashing him. I think it actually will make him a better hockey in the future sacrificing some wins in the past. I wouldn't have been as stringent about it.
Kindl is a fine 3rd pair d-man and Lashoff is a fine 7th but the Wings have 6 better d-men in GR that should have been utilized more

Been wanting to see Almqvist get a shot for awhile now. The guy is so skilled, watching him move the puck is a thing of beauty. I think he's going to get jumped by one of the other kids, though, and Lashoff has basically entrenched himself as the #7 because he's cheap and appears safe. I like Bieksa, too, but no idea what Vancouver will be doing.

If the Wings basically trap then yeah they can play good D, but kiss our offense goodbye. The Wings can limit shots, do ok on scoring chances, etc with this D style but that also means all of our forwards are back committing to D over offense. So instead of losing a game 6-3 we lose 2-0. When you have two healthy elite centers in Z and Dats this can almost be an effective strategy see the 12/13 playoffs, because they can score on their own. Take those two players out of the equation and you get this year, where we get rolled by a superior team.

The Wings spent far too much time in their own zone this year due to turnovers. They may have done an ok job covering up for this or keeping games close, but they expended a ton of energy. I honestly think all of the running around they did, is one of the main reasons they were always flat come the third period. They were consistently logging hard minutes in the first two periods, and still usually ended up down a goal or two.

We still weren't playing good D, though. We were 16th in the league in goals against per game giving up 2.70 every night. Even trying to shut it down this year, and play as conservatively as possible, they still couldn't keep the puck out of their net better than half the league.

 

[SoupNazi]

Sorry I am derailing your thread here with Oduya talk ,, Is there a Wing offseason roster speculation thread? I didn't see one?

As for Kesler to Wings ,, I think it would be best for Wings to continue with a more youth movement

Not sure the Wings should pay price the Nucks will want in youth for him

I agree with you on that.

 

[Bench]

I agree with you on that.

On one hand, you have the future team to look out for.

On the other hand, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the best players on the team and the window is closing on them being elite.

I think the Wings need to start going all in to get them another Cup.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

On one hand, you have the future team to look out for.

On the other hand, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the best players on the team and the window is closing on them being elite.

I think the Wings need to start going all in to get them another Cup.

That is very risky ,, That was basically the Leafs thinking in the late 90's/early 00's when they had those good teams and it ended up coming back to haunt them from 2006 and beyond

Of course Wings have better management/scouting/drafting record but going all in and likely trading away youth is always a risky proposition

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

On one hand, you have the future team to look out for.

On the other hand, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the best players on the team and the window is closing on them being elite.

I think the Wings need to start going all in to get them another Cup.

It's certainly an odd limbo to be in. San Jose is in a similar position as well. I think it'd be a fools errand to sell all our assets and try to compete immediately. We're a few steps behind the Chicago's, Boston's, LA's, and even St. Louis'. But I do think the east is up for grabs.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

It's certainly an odd limbo to be in. San Jose is in a similar position as well. I think it'd be a fools errand to sell all our assets and try to compete immediately. We're a few steps behind the Chicago's, Boston's, LA's, and even St. Louis'. But I do think the east is up for grabs.

That is an interesting reality now

Wings aren't all that different then Mon/NYR ,, If your team was still in Central dealing with Hawks/Blues and rising Avs/Wild/Star teams that would be trouble

But a few moves in East could punch ticket for Wings into finals

 

[Bench]

They don't have to trade the entire farm, but maybe the barn and a few of the fields. I don't want Datsyuk going down with the same average results Lidstrom had at the end.

 

[ap3x]

Getting rid of some guys (Kindl, Lashoff, ...) and trading for a decent d-man would be a start. But whom am I telling that...

 

[Flowah]

That is very risky ,, That was basically the Leafs thinking in the late 90's/early 00's when they had those good teams and it ended up coming back to haunt them from 2006 and beyond

Of course Wings have better management/scouting/drafting record but going all in and likely trading away youth is always a risky proposition

imo, more risky is not utilizing D/Z while they are still effective PPG/Selke level players. We don't have anyone like that in the pipeline. While we have plenty of great wingers, and some very promising defensemen and goalie, we don't have any bonafide top6 centers. And none that are projected to be anywhere near D/Z, even now while they are trending down.

That's a strength the team shouldn't squander.

 

[Roy S]

They'd probably need an elite defenseman and forward and probably a good second pairing defenseman on top of that to be a Cup favorite next year. They can get a good second pairing defenseman in FA, but there are no elite talents. That would all have to come via trades, so you'd have to sell a number of their 25 and under talent + draft picks to make it work.

It's a possible course of action, but I probably wouldn't do it. Nothing guarantees a Cup and its very rare to win it all when your best players are in their mid 30's. They don't really have the roster built for a go all-in mentality. I don't think they've had one since the 08-09 era when Z, D and Franzen were in their prime and they had the best top pairing in hockey in Lidstrom-Rafalski and Kronwall on the second pairing.

 

[Brick Top]

They'd probably need an elite defenseman and forward and probably a good second pairing defenseman on top of that to be a Cup favorite next year. They can get a good second pairing defenseman in FA, but there are no elite talents. That would all have to come via trades, so you'd have to sell a number of their 25 and under talent + draft picks to make it work.

It's a possible course of action, but I probably wouldn't do it. Nothing guarantees a Cup and its very rare to win it all when your best players are in their mid 30's. They don't really have the roster built for a go all-in mentality. I don't think they've had one since the 08-09 era when Z, D and Franzen were in their prime and they had the best top pairing in hockey in Lidstrom-Rafalski and Kronwall on the second pairing.

Agree that nothing guarantees a Cup, but I think another passive offseason where the key acquisitions are old and/or injury prone vets is going to guarantee they have no legit shot at the Cup next year.


It would take a bold move or two to acquire a top pairing D and/or top 6 scorer, but they have the young assets to frame a trade around provided they have a willingness to move roster players as well. I imagine that Z & D are seeing the window rapidly close on their chances to win a Cup and would love Kenny to make an aggressive move or two this offseason.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

imo, more risky is not utilizing D/Z while they are still effective PPG/Selke level players. We don't have anyone like that in the pipeline. While we have plenty of great wingers, and some very promising defensemen and goalie, we don't have any bonafide top6 centers. And none that are projected to be anywhere near D/Z, even now while they are trending down.

That's a strength the team shouldn't squander.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are Hall of Fame calibre players, naturally they will be very difficult to replace. It really is a shame we weren't able to sign Suter. He would have been an upgrade on 2012 Lidstrom. My concern is our older guys are having a very difficult time staying healthy.