Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[will1066]

Besides all the other issues, he just isn't reading plays quickly enough, not seeing the plays in his mind's eye and anticipating. He's always half a step behind, even with preseason speed.

 

[TomBlizzy12]

Is he dating an Albanian girl from the Bronx? Could explain why he's so timid on and off the ice

 

[n8]

Besides all the other issues, he just isn't reading plays quickly enough, not seeing the plays in his mind's eye and anticipating. He's always half a step behind, even with preseason speed.

The good news IIRC, Laf was a bit slow last preseason too. And a bit slow the first half of October. Trying to be optimistic. Still some time to improve.

 

[Leonardo87]

Was at a brewery tonight, and talking about Kakko with one of the bartenders. Basically, Kakko is not a bust, he is what he is, a 3rd liner two way player.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Really looking like Kakko is going to be the odd man out unless he has a monster first 10 games. Othmann looks good and deserves a shot. The Reilly Smith trade makes less and less sense. You knew Othmann was going to be knocking on the door, why give the spot away to a declining vet when it's something you could've addressed at the deadline if Othmann/Kakko didn't work out in that spot. It's not like that spot being given to those 2 was ever going to be the reason we do or don't make the playoffs.

I like Reilly Smith 3 years ago. I'm sure he'll fit in, but I would've rather spent that cap space elsewhere when we have 2 young 1st round picks that need to play up there to either show they can/can't do it in Kakko's case or to develop in Othmann's case.

Don't get it.

Only thing I can foresee would be to have a 3rd line of Othmann-Chytil-Kakko and drop Cuylle to the 4th line. Othmann has to make the team, straight up. If I were him I'd be demanding a trade the minute the news broke that he's going back down.

 

[LOFIN]

Was at a brewery tonight, and talking about Kakko with one of the bartenders. Basically, Kakko is not a bust, he is what he is, a 3rd liner two way player.

And that's ok for this year at his caphit. If he scores like 30 points playing a 3rd line role for 2.4M, that's still pretty good value. Not even talking about what he does possession wise for the line he plays with.

I think him and Chytil will cook up some magic though

Really looking like Kakko is going to be the odd man out unless he has a monster first 10 games. Othmann looks good and deserves a shot.

That's just... not going to happen. Nor should it.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

And that's ok for this year at his caphit. If he scores like 30 points playing a 3rd line role for 2.4M, that's still pretty good value. Not even talking about what he does possession wise for the line he plays with.


That's just... not going to happen. Nor should it.

I'll clarify.. I'm not inferring he won't be on the opening night roster. I'm saying I think Othmann blows by him this year on the depth chart as the season wears on forcing the Rangers to trade Kakko.

Othmann has to make the team, he's played too well in the preseason to not be on the roster and you have to imagine he and his agent aren't willing to go back to the AHL when he's clearly NHL ready.

Neither of these guys belong on the 4th line and we just happen to be stacked at wing. So with both Othmann and Kakko on the roster you're forcing Cuylle down to the 4th line which is probably not what the Rangers want to do.

Inevitably a winger will get hurt and this problem will be solved. It's just not ideal when your depth wingers are both 1st round picks that don't want to sit out and need minutes to get better.

 

[n8]

Was at a brewery tonight, and talking about Kakko with one of the bartenders. Basically, Kakko is not a bust, he is what he is, a 3rd liner two way player.

Damn! Did the bartender give you lotto numbers too?

 

[SA16]

The game before all the talk was how Othmann was bad in the preseason (even him from G2) and worse than Berard and now suddenly he's good in the preseason and stealing Kakko's roster spot?

 

[Rongomania]

The game before all the talk was how Othmann was bad in the preseason (even him from G2) and worse than Berard and now suddenly he's good in the preseason and stealing Kakko's roster spot?

For the trillionth time, fans of this team all better hope Kak takes another step this year. We’re a much better hockey team with what he brings and if he can add more offense. On no planet does Brennan Othmann or Brett Berard have the overall NHL game Kak has and still has the potential to have. He still has a ceiling, being a big dude, consensus 2nd overall & 23 1/2 years old.. There is still time.

Preseason literally means dick to guys who have played hundreds of NHL games. It’s a glorified workout / rookie showcase.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

The game before all the talk was how Othmann was bad in the preseason (even him from G2) and worse than Berard and now suddenly he's good in the preseason and stealing Kakko's roster spot?

Well Othmann can skate

 

[Profet]

For the trillionth time, fans of this team all better hope Kak takes another step this year. We’re a much better hockey team with what he brings and if he can add more offense. On no planet does Brennan Othmann or Brett Berard have the overall NHL game Kak has and still has the potential to have. He still has a ceiling, being a big dude, consensus 2nd overall & 23 1/2 years old.. There is still time.

Preseason literally means dick to guys who have played hundreds of NHL games. It’s a glorified workout / rookie showcase.

For the umpteenth time...

No one here wants Kakko to fail.
We all want him to succeed.

The difference is that some of us want to bet/waste another year of prime Fox, Panarin and Shesterkin on Kakko taking a significant step.

I hope Kakko has it in him. But let's have a hard talk. He has had three coaches, each of whom have tried and failed to get him going. And even decided the team was better with a healthy Kakko sitting out.

Preseason is preseason. It doesn't mean anything. That said, Kakko looks lost out there. Will he pick up his game when the games matter like Laf did last year? I have significant doubts, and I don't think betting on Kakko is a smart move this season.

 

[SA16]

For the umpteenth time...

No one here wants Kakko to fail.
We all want him to succeed.

The difference is that some of us want to bet/waste another year of prime Fox, Panarin and Shesterkin on Kakko taking a significant step.

I hope Kakko has it in him. But let's have a hard talk. He has had three coaches, each of whom have tried and failed to get him going. And even decided the team was better with a healthy Kakko sitting out.

Preseason is preseason. It doesn't mean anything. That said, Kakko looks lost out there. Will he pick up his game when the games matter like Laf did last year? I have significant doubts, and I don't think betting on Kakko is a smart move this season.

He's a third line wing on this team. I don't whether or not he takes a significant step is going to waste a year of Fox/Panarin/Shesterkin. Worst case is he does not take a significant step and he's still a good third line wing with strong defensive play. Nobody would complain about him in that role if he wasn't a 2nd overall pick. It is what it is. He's not being paid a huge salary and he is an asset to the team in that role. People were made we didn't give Fast more money than Kakko is getting to play that kind of role.

 

[Crease]

He's a third line wing on this team. I don't whether or not he takes a significant step is going to waste a year of Fox/Panarin/Shesterkin. Worst case is he does not take a significant step and he's still a good third line wing with strong defensive play. Nobody would complain about him in that role if he wasn't a 2nd overall pick. It is what it is. He's not being paid a huge salary and he is an asset to the team in that role. People were made we didn't give Fast more money than Kakko is getting to play that kind of role.

The Rangers got everything out of their core, it wasn’t enough, and they are running it back. In some ways, this season depends on Kakko’s growth.

 

[SA16]

The Rangers got everything out of their core, it wasn’t enough, and they are running it back. In some ways, this season depends on Kakko’s growth.

It most certainly does not. In past seasons they were relying on him to take a role in the top six. When that didn't happen it caused problems down the whole lineup. Now he is slotted in as the third line wing and providing something like 1.5 pts/60 with strong defensive play would be perfectly good production for that role and salary.

285 forwards with 2000+ 5v5 mins the last 3 years and he has 12th best GA60 and this board thinks he's useless because he's a disappointment based on his draft slot meanwhile he's the exact type of guy that people clamor for at deadlines every year.

 

[Synergy27]

It most certainly does not. In past seasons they were relying on him to take a role in the top six. When that didn't happen it caused problems down the whole lineup. Now he is slotted in as the third line wing and providing something like 1.5 pts/60 with strong defensive play would be perfectly good production for that role and salary.

285 forwards with 2000+ 5v5 mins the last 3 years and he has 12th best GA60 and this board thinks he's useless because he's a disappointment based on his draft slot meanwhile he's the exact type of guy that people clamor for at deadlines every year.

None of this is wrong, but I think you are misrepresenting the clamor as it relates to Kakko.

This team wasn’t good enough to win last year. They’re basically the same team this year pending in season additions.

The only reasonable path to actually winning this year is if Kakko all of a sudden turns into the elite player he was drafted to be. The team needs someone else to show up in the playoffs in a way that actually moves the needle. Kakko isn’t gonna do that providing strong defense on the third line.

 

[SA16]

None of this is wrong, but I think you are misrepresenting the clamor as it relates to Kakko.

This team wasn’t good enough to win last year. They’re basically the same team this year pending in season additions.

The only reasonable path to actually winning this year is if Kakko all of a sudden turns into the elite player he was drafted to be. The team needs someone else to show up in the playoffs in a way that actually moves the needle. Kakko isn’t gonna do that providing strong defense on the third line.

The team was good enough to win last year. Just because they didn't win doesn't mean they couldn't have won. Why would you make major changes to a team that won the President's trophy? It doesn't make sense. This isn't chess. The best (or one of the) does not always win. Even right now no team is projected to have better than like an 11% chance to win the Stanley Cup. If you go off the theory that the season is a failure if you didn't win the Cup then all you're doing is making your decisions based on fortune because every team is more likely to lose than win.

 

[GAGLine]

Was at a brewery tonight, and talking about Kakko with one of the bartenders. Basically, Kakko is not a bust, he is what he is, a 3rd liner two way player.

I'd say middle six. He may never be a 1st liner, but I think he'll settle into being a 50-60 point player. Maybe not with the Rangers, but I think he has the talent to hit those numbers in the right situation.

 

[UnSandvich]

None of this is wrong, but I think you are misrepresenting the clamor as it relates to Kakko.

This team wasn’t good enough to win last year. They’re basically the same team this year pending in season additions.

The only reasonable path to actually winning this year is if Kakko all of a sudden turns into the elite player he was drafted to be. The team needs someone else to show up in the playoffs in a way that actually moves the needle. Kakko isn’t gonna do that providing strong defense on the third line.

We could've won the past playoffs if the Zibanejad line didn't get utterly killed every time they stepped on the ice. Putting the requirement on Kakko to become elite, as opposed to the Zibanejad line to not suck, is a bit unfair. Zibanejad is rocking a whopping 38.84% xGF over the past 3 playoff runs.

 

[SA16]

We could've won the past playoffs if the Zibanejad line didn't get utterly killed every time they stepped on the ice. Putting the requirement on Kakko to become elite, as opposed to the Zibanejad line to not suck, is a bit unfair. Zibanejad is rocking a whopping 38.84% xGF over the past 3 playoff runs.

Zibanejad/Kreider were a +1 in the playoffs at 5v5 so while they may have had terrible expected numbers they certainly did not cost the team because the results were a positive. The year before they were a +3 and the year before that also +3. So in none of those years did their play actually hurt the team.

You are misusing descriptive vs predictive numbers.

Predictive: If 38.8 xG% is their true expectation (which it surely isn't though it may well be less than 50%) they will likely hurt the team in the future.

Descriptive: They scored 7 more 5v5 goals than their opponents over the last 3 playoff runs so their results helped the team.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Zibanejad/Kreider were a +1 in the playoffs at 5v5 so while they may have had terrible expected numbers they certainly did not cost the team because the results were a positive. The year before they were a +3 and the year before that also +3. So in none of those years did their play actually hurt the team.

You are misusing descriptive vs predictive numbers.

Plus minus as an indicator of success is a bit much. They got eaten alive by barkov’s line.

And as much as I’ve defended Kakko the past few years, him taking a Laf like step would absolutely catapult the rangers into a scary f’ing team.

 

[SA16]

Plus minus as an indicator of success is a bit much. They got eaten alive by barkov’s line.

And as much as I’ve defended Kakko the past few years, him taking a Laf like step would absolutely catapult the rangers into a scary f’ing team.

It is an indicator of past success. It's not an indicator of future success.

Zibanejad's line scored 0 goals against Barkov's line in the playoffs.
Barkov's line scored 0 goals against Zibanejad's line in the playoffs.

Barkov's line completely controlled the play against them but the actual impact on the scoreboard was zero.

 

[Synergy27]

We could've won the past playoffs if the Zibanejad line didn't get utterly killed every time they stepped on the ice. Putting the requirement on Kakko to become elite, as opposed to the Zibanejad line to not suck, is a bit unfair. Zibanejad is rocking a whopping 38.84% xGF over the past 3 playoff runs.

Sure. I agree. But I think it’s more likely that Kakko improves dramatically than Zib/Kreider all of a sudden figure out how to control play at even strength.

Note, this doesn’t mean that I think it’s likely that Kakko does so. It’s very unlikely either happens, so my base case is that we are f***ed.

 

[DanielBrassard]

It is an indicator of past success. It's not an indicator of future success.

Zibanejad's line scored 0 goals against Barkov's line in the playoffs.
Barkov's line scored 0 goals against Zibanejad's line in the playoffs.

Barkov's line completely controlled the play against them but the actual impact on the scoreboard was zero.

I get what you’re saying but the problem with this analysis is that while the Zibanejad line didn’t necessarily hurt them, compared to other first lines on other teams how effective are they? I don't think consistently getting dominated in expected goals and shot attempts is actually a good thing. Imagine we had a first line that could impose their will on teams in the playoffs, and could out score their matchups rather than barely break even because their goaltender is putting on a clinic. That’s where the analysis falls short. When we say this core group isn’t good enough p, or at least when I do, this is exactly what I’m referring to. They don’t have the ability to outperform other top lines to the degree that it puts the Rangers in a dominant position.

 

[SA16]

I get what you’re saying but the problem with this analysis is that while the Zibanejad line didn’t necessarily hurt them, compared to other first lines on other teams how effective are they? I don't think consistently getting dominated in expected goals and shot attempts is actually a good thing. Imagine we had a first line that could impose their will on teams in the playoffs, and could out score their matchups rather than barely break even because their goaltender is putting on a clinic. That’s where the analysis falls short. When we say this core group isn’t good enough p, or at least when I do, this is exactly what I’m referring to. They don’t have the ability to outperform other top lines to the degree that it puts the Rangers in a dominant position.

They aren’t the first line though and haven’t been for years despite what the media reports.