Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[bleedblue94]

I mean, you just called someone else out after he said he read Finish media claiming BS from that source, whatever you read from the Finish media might be just as much BS, just saying I take that with a grain of salt. Just dont see a 19-20 year Kakko throwing the plans the Rangers gave him in the trash and doing his own thing

The person I called out also claimed nyr doesn't give summer workout plans to any of their players which is complete nonsense and has been public knowledge in the USA for years. Forgive me if making such a bullshit claim makes me not overly worried about comparing our different takes on finish media reports. Feel free to believe the person that told you the new York rangers don't provide summer work plans and areas of focus to their multi million dollar invests known as players. That's just stupid

 

[bleedblue94]

He will be 15-25 this year with zero improvement if he just stays healthy.

15 and 25 in d+4 year from a 2os pick is horrific. We've lowered our standards here so much for this kid. It's embarrassing. It's slowing turning into what many people did around here with lias in that as the player failed to live up to expectations and draft position (in lias' case draft position was too high to begin with) fans started lowering expectations and start shooting for small victories to keep the dream alive. 3 years ago if I told you kakko wasn't going to break 30 points in any of his first three years people wouldn't have not wanted to take him 2oa. At the time the pick was a no brainer, but now it's quite suspect based on his lack of growth as a player. I don't know what it's looked down on to call a spade a spade.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

The person I called out also claimed nyr doesn't give summer workout plans to any of their players which is complete nonsense and has been public knowledge in the USA for years. Forgive me if making such a bullshit claim makes me not overly worried about comparing our different takes on finish media reports. Feel free to believe the person that told you the new York rangers don't provide summer work plans and areas of focus to their multi million dollar invests known as players. That's just stupid

I’m not believing that lol. I’m just saying I don’t take much value from overseas media since we really don’t know who is trustworthy or not.

 

[bleedblue94]

I’m not believing that lol. I’m just saying I don’t take much value from overseas media since we really don’t know who is trustworthy or not.

I understand what you're saying. I just also buy it though bc turk made a comment that while kakko was rehabbing his wrist they finally were able to get him to put in work on his lower body. I found that comment kind of odd without the context of what I shared above. It just seems like they've asked him to do X but he does Y when he's overseas. He gets hurt while he's here so they can finally work him out the way they want. It reminds me a lot of what happened with bunch when he refused to follow the nyr training provided to him and he came over and they needed time to work him out in NA to strengthen his core for the NHL game and at the time someone asked if he was in shape or not and the response was to the affect that he was in Russian shape, not NHL shape. It's all within context

 

[NickyFotiu]

15 and 25 in d+4 year from a 2os pick is horrific. We've lowered our standards here so much for this kid. It's embarrassing. It's slowing turning into what many people did around here with lias in that as the player failed to live up to expectations and draft position (in lias' case draft position was too high to begin with) fans started lowering expectations and start shooting for small victories to keep the dream alive. 3 years ago if I told you kakko wasn't going to break 30 points in any of his first three years people wouldn't have not wanted to take him 2oa. At the time the pick was a no trainer, but now it's quite suspect based on his lack of growth as a player. I don't know what it's looked down on to call a spade a spade.

I understand your feelings but only around 5 guys have been better from that draft.

 

[bleedblue94]

I understand your feelings but only around 5 guys have been better from that draft.

I don't know what that has to do with what I said. The point stands that after three seasons of you picked second overall and your player had not yet broken 30pts in a season you'd be livid.

Btw off the top of my head all these players already broke 30pts in an NHL season from that draft:
Hughes (not an option)
Seider as a rookie
Cozens
Zegras
Boldy as a rookie
Caufield
Newhook as a rookie
Tomasino as a rookie

 

[dshea19]

Hopefully Drury is adamant about power skating and speed building. So many other things will fall into place just by addressing those things.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I don't know what that has to do with what I said. The point stands that after three seasons of you picked second overall and your player had not yet broken 30pts in a season you'd be livid.

Btw off the top of my head all these players already broke 30pts in an NHL season from that draft:
Hughes (not an option)
Seider as a rookie
Cozens
Zegras
Boldy as a rookie
Caufield
Newhook as a rookie
Tomasino as a rookie

This is just more evidence pointing to the Rangers being the problem, not the player. Trading Kakko will almost certainly result in him hitting his potential and us regreting the trade.

 

[bleedblue94]

This is just more evidence pointing to the Rangers being the problem, not the player. Trading Kakko will almost certainly result in him hitting his potential and us regreting the trade.

Why does what you quoted point at the rangers as the problem? I'm not defending the team but I don't understand.

I also am not looking to attack kakko but he really hasn't evolved his game much at all in three years. All those players I listed made noticable strides in their NHL game from the time the arrived until now. What has kakko made strides in? He is still the same player that was here in 2020. People can say whatever about opportunities but players have done more here with less opportunity than he has.

 

[bhamill]

15 and 25 in d+4 year from a 2os pick is horrific. We've lowered our standards here so much for this kid. It's embarrassing. It's slowing turning into what many people did around here with lias in that as the player failed to live up to expectations and draft position (in lias' case draft position was too high to begin with) fans started lowering expectations and start shooting for small victories to keep the dream alive. 3 years ago if I told you kakko wasn't going to break 30 points in any of his first three years people wouldn't have not wanted to take him 2oa. At the time the pick was a no trainer, but now it's quite suspect based on his lack of growth as a player. I don't know what it's looked down on to call a spade a spade.

Yeah, see the thing is it doesn’t really matter where he was drafted, he's going to be the player he’s going to be. If he was drafted in the 2nd round everyone would be a lot more patient, people base their expectations on the fact that he was a 2OA and that’s understandable but doesn’t change anything. I don’t really care if it takes him a couple of extra years to rev up his production. Expectations only rob you of patience and make you make bad trades. Sure we’d all love if he and Laf had broken in with 50 point seasons or whatever but the fact he’s started more slowly doesn’t mean he won’t be exactly the player we thought we’d eventually have. some players just take longer, especially bigger power forward types. I can wait. For instance Mika never even broke 50 points till his D+7 season. Kakko has also dealt with COVID seasons and injuries, what would be called mitigating circumstances. Guess we shall see, but unless they can get real value for him, it would be a pointless mistake to trade him.

 

[mas0764]

15 and 25 in d+4 year from a 2os pick is horrific. We've lowered our standards here so much for this kid. It's embarrassing. It's slowing turning into what many people did around here with lias in that as the player failed to live up to expectations and draft position (in lias' case draft position was too high to begin with) fans started lowering expectations and start shooting for small victories to keep the dream alive. 3 years ago if I told you kakko wasn't going to break 30 points in any of his first three years people wouldn't have not wanted to take him 2oa. At the time the pick was a no trainer, but now it's quite suspect based on his lack of growth as a player. I don't know what it's looked down on to call a spade a spade.

Well first I said “with zero improvement” he will do that. He probably will also improve and get a more substantial role.

Secondly while it’s not great there are plenty of examples of players developing a little later so unless we are clearly winning a trade then I don’t see that there’s anything to talk about on this subject. He’s coming back and continuing to develop.

 

[bleedblue94]

Well first I said “with zero improvement” he will do that. He probably will also improve and get a more substantial role.

Secondly while it’s not great there are plenty of examples of players developing a little later so unless we are clearly winning a trade then I don’t see that there’s anything to talk about on this subject. He’s coming back and continuing to develop.

This isn't "not great," this is horrible for the standards of a 2oa pick. Absolutely horrible.

 

[bleedblue94]

Yeah, see the thing is it doesn’t really matter where he was drafted, he's going to be the player he’s going to be. If he was drafted in the 2nd round everyone would be a lot more patient, people base their expectations on the fact that he was a 2OA and that’s understandable but doesn’t change anything. I don’t really care if it takes him a couple of extra years to rev up his production. Expectations only rob you of patience and make you make bad trades. Sure we’d all love if he and Laf had broken in with 50 point seasons or whatever but the fact he’s started more slowly doesn’t mean he won’t be exactly the player we thought we’d eventually have. some players just take longer, especially bigger power forward types. I can wait. For instance Mika never even broke 50 points till his D+7 season. Kakko has also dealt with COVID seasons and injuries, what would be called mitigating circumstances. Guess we shall see, but unless they can get real value for him, it would be a pointless mistake to trade him.

This is revisionist. Kakko isn't a "big power forward" and when he was drafted he was expected to step in and be an impact player based on his pro success and also how good he looked at the world's w NHL players.

I don't disagree with you on the trading aspect, making a trade for the sake of making a trade is not good, but finding a deal for kakko along with say Nils could actually net us a potential young 2c that we want.

My issue and what my posts get at is that his ark so far is a failure for a 2oa pick no matter how it is spun. Stack his first 3 years against others and it looks horrible, especially with no noticable improvements to his game. I just don't know where this is going with him. Most all the other kids gave you a clear view where they are headed as players this postseason. I don't want to get lulled into the lowering of expectations for kakko to accommodate how mediocre he's been thus far

 

[Synergy27]

This is just more evidence pointing to the Rangers being the problem, not the player. Trading Kakko will almost certainly result in him hitting his potential and us regreting the trade.

Adding on here. In the 2019 WC tournament, Kakko scored 6 goals in ten games against NHL players as a raw 18 year old. He has since scored 26 goals in 157 games in the NHL.

He scored about 25% of his NHL total in that tournament. Against NHLers. With zero post draft development. With worse teammates.

If he scored at that same rate for the Rangers, he’d have 90 career goals right now. If he fell off a cliff and scored at HALF that rate, he’d still have twenty more goals than he has right now.

What. The. f***. Happened?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Adding on here. In the 2019 WC tournament, Kakko scored 6 goals in ten games against NHL players as a raw 18 year old. He has since scored 26 goals in 157 games in the NHL.

He scored about 25% of his NHL total in that tournament. Against NHLers. With zero post draft development. With worse teammates.

If he scored at that same rate for the Rangers, he’d have 90 career goals right now. If he fell off a cliff and scored at HALF that rate, he’d still have twenty more goals than he has right now.

What. The. f***. Happened?

I think with Kaapo it is a confluence of factors. He’s clearly coachable, and a hard worker. He’s hit the gym each offseason. So it’s not that.

I think it’s opportunity and confidence. It’s between the ears. He was rushed to the league, probably should have spent one year in Finland. But he hasn’t had an extended run in the top 6 or on the PP. He’s been used in more of a checking role. He’s trying to stay in the lineup, so he’s focused on what keeps him in the lineup.

As his role and opportunity grows, I expect his confidence to grow and his numbers to increase. I’m not even the slightest worried yet. The kid is 21. When he’s 24-25, he’s going to be a top defensive forward who can score 25+ goals.

 

[jonlin]

So 15 minutes before game 6, potential elimination game, you want the coach focusing on the game ahead and the plan or you want him sitting down and having a discussion with the kid to protect his ego?

Dont twist my words! Who said 15min before a game or sit down? If the kid doesnt know why he was scratched 2 days later, theres something wrong. It takes 10 secs to tell why you scratch someone. After the game, the season was over - Gallant had all the time in the world to tell why.

These are professional athletes. They didn’t get to where they are because they’re babies who need an explanation on why they were demoted, traded or benched.

So, professional athletes are mindreaders now? Ofcourse they need an explanation. If they wont get one, how the hell do they know what they did to deserved the benching and how to perform better and at what?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Dont twist my words! Who said 15min before a game or sit down? If the kid doesnt know why he was scratched 2 days later, theres something wrong. It takes 10 secs to tell why you scratch someone. After the game, the season was over - Gallant had all the time in the world to tell why.


So, professional athletes are mindreaders now? Ofcourse they need an explanation. If they wont get one, how the hell do they know what they did to deserved the benching and how to perform better and at what?

If they don't know then they can ask but the usually know from coaches coaching them all the time. KK seems fine with it. It only some fans that seem to want to make it a big deal.

 

[CLW]

The person I called out also claimed nyr doesn't give summer workout plans to any of their players which is complete nonsense and has been public knowledge in the USA for years. Forgive me if making such a bullshit claim makes me not overly worried about comparing our different takes on finish media reports. Feel free to believe the person that told you the new York rangers don't provide summer work plans and areas of focus to their multi million dollar invests known as players. That's just stupid

Kakko and the other kids work out very hard during the summer months. Hard work and dedication is not the issue. He is following a scientific plyometric training program, with outdoors training, gymwork, ice time, skating lessons, and other sports like badminton/floor ball etc for "off days". And he is building on the NYR's wish to add more "skating and power". The Rangers themselves bulked him up this spring and I'm pretty sure they worked on his skating towards a more power stride. To me the question is more is his current training tailor fit for his current needs and what is the NYR's vision for him? I ask that as most of us see his biggest immediate need as burst speed. But the Rangers want power for physicality so power it is. The Rangers are also asking him to be Jesper Fast right NOW while also wanting him to score more...

Look at Kreider, physical specimen that he is. Kreider is very fast, but he also has a turning radius of 2-3 meters, he is not that nimble on his feet. Kakko's offensive game was always about nimbleness and elusiveness. I feel the Rangers idea/stereotype/vision of how to develop Kakko does not really meet who he is and I've felt that from the very start. And that goes back to what Amazing Kreiderman and many others here have pointed at, the Rangers are cooperate and aloof in their approach rather than meet individuals at where they are and who they are. Toronto, and now Montreal under Gorton's new vision and other clubs (Vancouver etc) are attempting to move away from this old fashioned approach.

Personally I'd model Kakko's training on how (eg) Kaprizov with his agility moves around the ice in the o-zone. Core strength, butt/leg strength, lots and lots of jumps and burst speed/foot speed training this summer is the ticket. Spend the skating lessons primarily on the five first step burst and how to use the hips for power/speed tailored to his personal body build. LOFIN, me and other Finns have been saying for years that while the work the Turku group does in Finland is of high quality *in general*, it lacks the burst/agility part. Rantanen, Kakko and other Finns who follow it look similar coming out of it physically strong yes, but also "square" to a point. Rantanen is physically a moose, but he is also not a greast skater, something he really has worked on this last season at the age of 25. Rantanen has improved noticeably, especially in speed, but he still is wobbly at times.

This is the reason I feel Kakko should work out with Prentiss and the gang, and with the best skating instructor he/they can find.

 

[eco's bones]

I wouldn't say that Kakko hasn't evolved at all as a player since we've drafted him. He did not belong in the NHL in 19-20. He was always gassed, easily knocked over and his defensive awareness was atrocious. He was easily one of the worst players on a pretty awful Rangers team. Most of his points in that first season also came off the power play.

It seems to me that the Rangers program for him in his second season was to work on his two way 200' game. Whether that was a good idea or not he became a much better all around player. His power play time in 20-21 and 21-22 also took a hit. These have been weird seasons as well for him between covid and injuries he has had a hard time staying in the lineup and much more often than not he's been shunted from one line to another.

Comparing him to other players in his draft class just on a stats perspective the last two seasons IMO is not altogether fair. The Devils for instance do not have guys like Mika, Artemi, Kreider etc. driving their offense. For lack of better Hughes gets all kinds of offensive situations that neither Kakko or Lafreniere see. Guys like Hughes, Zegras and Stutzle might put up a lot more points but none of them are very good 200' players and they all bleed lots of goals when they're on the ice. Maybe it wouldn't be fair then for me to point out that for all the gaudier numbers these kids put up their teams have yet to challenge for a playoff spot and aren't likely to for a while? So what's wrong with that picture?

 

[mas0764]

This isn't "not great," this is horrible for the standards of a 2oa pick. Absolutely horrible.

Oh ok, thanks for your input.

 

[RangerBoy]

This is a business. The Rangers bought out Girardi in 2017. The Rangers did not give him any indication the buyout was coming until Gorton called Girardi to tell him the buyout was happening. Girardi had been in the organization since 2005. People were upset about how the Rangers handled that situation. It’s a business.

 

[bhamill]

This is revisionist. Kakko isn't a "big power forward" and when he was drafted he was expected to step in and be an impact player based on his pro success and also how good he looked at the world's w NHL players.

I don't disagree with you on the trading aspect, making a trade for the sake of making a trade is not good, but finding a deal for kakko along with say Nils could actually net us a potential young 2c that we want.

My issue and what my posts get at is that his ark so far is a failure for a 2oa pick no matter how it is spun. Stack his first 3 years against others and it looks horrible, especially with no noticable improvements to his game. I just don't know where this is going with him. Most all the other kids gave you a clear view where they are headed as players this postseason. I don't want to get lulled into the lowering of expectations for kakko to accommodate how mediocre he's been thus far

It’s not at all revisionist. At all. It’s factual. “He’s a horse.” How many times have we heard that? A power forward doesn’t necessarily mean big hits, but it means he uses his body to force his way where he wants to be or to fend off attackers. And he’s 6’2, 6’3 so yeah he’s big. If you want to have a semantic argument over whether to call him a big power forward I’m not interested.
And yes I get you dont like his arc. And you specifically tie it to him being a 2OA, which frankly is irrelevant at this point except to expectations on how fast he will develop. Not everyone is hung up on the draft position 3 years later. He’s still going to be the player he’s going to be. At this point I just look at the player in the light of what is he going to become and will it benefit the team. Period. Not for a 2OA, because it doesn’t matter now. Sure people use his draft position to bag on him (or on the flip side, over value him) but he’ll still be 21 when the next season starts and he was a solid contributor in an unexpectedly deep playoff run. I’m repeating myself, but under the circumstances I don’t care if it takes a couple of extra seasons. Once again Mika also had an arc that was a failure for a 6OA, under far more optimal circumstances. It happens.

 

[Anthony5967]

Adding on here. In the 2019 WC tournament, Kakko scored 6 goals in ten games against NHL players as a raw 18 year old. He has since scored 26 goals in 157 games in the NHL.

He scored about 25% of his NHL total in that tournament. Against NHLers. With zero post draft development. With worse teammates.

If he scored at that same rate for the Rangers, he’d have 90 career goals right now. If he fell off a cliff and scored at HALF that rate, he’d still have twenty more goals than he has right now.

What. The. f***. Happened?

He doesn't shoot the puck and is always slow to decide when he's in mid-to-high danger areas of the ice. How many times does he wait for an extra second and not get a shot off? He refuses to shoot.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Edit

 

[Larrybiv]

Depends on which GG you believe exists. The one in pressers who admits he doesn't talk much to the players about strategy, doesn't give speeches that are longer than 10 seconds, has assistants realize when to use time outs etc., or the mastermind that some on this site believe exists who pretends to be the dumb guy because behind closed doors he's a stronger, smarter Jon Cooper.

I believe he is a strong, smart S.O.B. that know exactly HOW to handle the press and WHAT he wants to say, to make them believe anything he wants them to believe. Here, here's a bone......now fetch. He was a PLAYER in this league and as smart as he is, knowing full well that HE wouldn't wanna be singled out negatively, you can rest assure he wouldn't do it to his own team.]
Thats NOT his STYLE.