EdJovanovski
#RempeForCalder
I've posted this a while back but this is seriously the most sobering pic of all time
"Room for Improvement: None"
Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko
- Thread starter Krams
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"Room for Improvement: None"
The kids kept getting great looks, they didn't score (inexperience I'd say) so they were broken up.
Kakko was playing just fine with Panarin and Strome in November and just when he was getting going with the production he was moved for whatever reason. Then he was the third wheel on the Kreider Zib line. Then he got injured. And to say he is not playing solid hockey is simply to lie. You are putting your subjective expectation on him and calling it non-emotional rationality. Go figure.
will1066
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- Oct 12, 2008
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Lolol NBCSN is such an authorityI've posted this a while back but this is seriously the most sobering pic of all time
"Room for Improvement: None"
I don't see what the panic is? People forget how young these guys are at times. Kakko wasn't billed as some generational player. If you're not generational you don't usually impact the league right away. Also, Kakko really never meshed with any of our top six players outside of a stretch earlier in the season where we played god awful teams. Next season with Strome gone and replaced by a real center Kakko can find some more success in the top six.
When you stop seeing lines as a tier system and being put on the fourth line as a demotion your whole mind will be free to a world of possibilities.
That’s not really the point. What a player could do or why they haven’t done what they could do are rarely considered in valuations, and always taken as a gamble when a player is a reclamation or something of that ilk. Any team trying to sell us Kakko at “full value” today would be laughed at, universally, by our fan base. Why then is our fan base divided on his performance? There is undoubtedly a double standard - if any other team had Kakko and was trying to convince us he still had top six upside we would not be so kind to them. But, since he’s our property, that all goes out the window. Because some people are looking for any excuse to say well he’s been better than it looks because X, Y, Z because it feels better than saying damn, we really drafted this kid 2nd overall in 2019 and now it’s almost the 2022 draft?
Again… I haven’t pointed a finger at Kakko in blame or said he’s hurting us, or said I dislike him, and I certainly don’t want him to fail. But can we please cut out this nonsensical narrative that the kids have been “great”? It’s farcical. The kids have been okay.
Simply put, I don’t have half the faith most of you have in him. 70+ points? PLUS? I’ll be surprised if he breaks 60 more than a couple of times in his career and I won’t be surprised if he never ends up breaking 60 at all.
EdJovanovski
#RempeForCalder
It was the general consensus though, he was the second coming of Forsberg and manhandled grown men. He was supposed to be one of the most NHL-ready all around players imaginable.
Okay, this is another load of bullshit argument invented by Rangers fans in the wake of the FAILURE of Kakko and Laf. Look at the last 6 year or so worth of top 5 picks and see how many 1 & 2 overalls made it to the end of their ELC with worse results than Kaako. There aren’t many, and none are named McDavid.
Only “generational” talents like Svechnikov and B. Tkachuk and Q. Hughes and Farabee, all taken one year before Kakko, are capable of having an impact by year 3 of their career. Duh. Jenn-uh-rashion-al talents. Lord knows those guys are all McDavid/Matthews tier.
rangers1314
Registered User
The idea of moving KK isn't as so much about being disappointed with the performance thus far (which yes hasn't blown anyone away) and is more about where the organization sits currently.
When he was drafted, Laf wasn't in the picture. Othmann wasn't in the picture.
They have weakness down the middle. They could use another LHD. No one is saying "they gotta get rid of this kid", but they're at the point where they should absolutely test the market on him.
When he was drafted, Laf wasn't in the picture. Othmann wasn't in the picture.
They have weakness down the middle. They could use another LHD. No one is saying "they gotta get rid of this kid", but they're at the point where they should absolutely test the market on him.
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Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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The next time someone says "NHL ready" about a prospect at the draft, that person deserves to fall down the stairs.
Savant
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- Oct 3, 2013
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The issue is he hasn’t gotten better offensively. He is still the same guy offensively as he was when he was drafted.
He has improved a ton defensively and can still make an impact there but I am not seeing a whole lost to convince me he is top six anymore.
Look at Svechnikov (who isn’t having a great series) as another #2 overall pick who coming into the draft was not a whole lot different than Kakko. Svechnikov has improved every part of his game offensively and developed his shot a great deal. Kakko needs to find that gear and/or the Rangers need to get that out of him.
Andrei Svechnikov is one year older than Kakko, NOT a generational talent (shocker!), nor was he hyped as one, was drafted to an ostensibly better team than ours (seeing as they’ve been in the playoffs and we haven’t) and had more goals, more assists and more points in 78 games this season than Kakko has yet to have in his 3 year NHL career combined. Let’s continue trying to convince everyone how “fantastic” Kakko is doing for where he is.
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I agree, but that continues to be the problem. I thought Copp and Kakko looked good together in their short time, but if Panarin doesn't like to play with Kaapo and Kaapo doesn't fit with Zib, then what? Then it's back to the Kid line next year full time, but that's not ideal as a third line. So here we are. People keep saying Kakko is a cycle player trying to fit on rush lines. Kreider Chytil Kakko would be a monster line on the cycle, but Zibs has dibs on Krieder... etc.
I'd love to see the kids grow together over the next few seasons as a line, but I doubt the club is going that direction (too impatient).
Laffy has the right idea, just play and have fun
NYRangers16
Registered User
Supposed by WHOM? I've watched a lot of hockey and I've never seen an 18-20 year old HOFer. I've seen a lot of young, talented interesting players that kept growing over the years into fantastic players with fantastic careers, but that never happened in 3 or 5 or even 7 seasons.
Rongomania
Registered User
I'm hoping for the reverse psychology angle from GG:
Stick him on the fourth line where all offense goes to die, unleash that Kak tomorrow in Carolina.
This is just a stupid statement, considering Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid, probably Matthews, probably Draisaitl are all HoF players within 5-7 years. Is that even relevant to Kakko? No. No one said it was either… we expect him to look like an AVERAGE second liner by now though. Is that absurd? But this just goes to show the hyperbole and mental gymnastics you’re doing. You’ve never seen a player who was a HoF players after 5-7 seasons even though there’s arguably 5+ currently playing? Heck Ovie had a 65 goal season in year 3 and had 163 goals in his first 3 years, but you’ve never seen a player who looked like a hall of famer after 5 or even 7 years? Either you’re twisting reality to make excuses for Kakko (like most Rangers fans) or you’ve been watching hockey as long as Kakko’s been in the league.
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Noone has been elected into the HOF after 5 years. Yes they are on the trajectory, which was my point and even they don't make it after 2 years, which was also my point. Who is the "we" you are talking about?
What are you talking about, is the much better question. What are you trying to prove with “no one has made the HoF after 5 years” argument? It’s not like there haven’t been individuals who clearly would have; they simply kept playing. What do you mean, even they don’t make it after 2 years? Do you not think Crosby and Ovechkin and McDavid are first ballot if they retired today and that wasn’t true true when they were at year 5/7 as well? How, ON EARTH, does the longevity of their careers impact whether or not Kakko is living up to the modest expectations of, it would be nice if you looked like an actual top six player by your 4th season? No one is asking, and certainly not expecting, Kakko to be anything akin to a hall of famer. I’ll literally bet you every penny I make for the remainder of my life that he will not be, so I truly struggle to see how it’s relevant. But that’s SO neither here nor there.
Who is asking Kakko to do that? That’s the only relevance that would have to this conversation? Why are you bringing up HoF within 3-7 years when no one is asking Kakko to even be an average first line player, let alone make the HoF in his first 5 years? What artificial straw man is this? Who is even asking Kakko to be an all star? Who is asking Kakko to even be an average 1st liner? A few of us are honest in our disappointment that, 3 full years into his career, he still isn’t even remotely close to being an average second liner. Then there are those who say he is playing “fantastic”. Evidently if I don’t think that being the #2 pick, yet being the 10th best player from your draft class and playing like a replacement level bottom six player, at best, makes you fantastic it means I am a Kakko hater who wants him to fail. I’m sorry but, to my eyes, only one of us has been logical to this point. You’re using Crosby to say “NOT ALL PROSPECTS ARE GENERATIONAL!!11!!1” and I’m using… virtually any solid top nine player in the entire NHL to say “okay? Can he just be as good as this?” and I’m the one who is apparently being hyperbolic and hates him.
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DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
When it comes to most 1st and 2nd overall picks it's true. I don't see why it's a controversial statement.
I mean forget hall of fame, because I’m not truly clear on why it was brought up in the first place.
Let’s look at completely non-generational, never hyped as generational players. Andrei Svechnikov and Kaapo Kakko had nearly identical hype at the draft. Both get taken #2OA a year apart. Let’s not bullshit about Svech getting more opportunity - Carolina had been better than us that entire time with Aho, Teravainen, Staal, Trochek, Neiderreiter, etc. Kakko’s rookie year was Svechnikov’s sophomore year and they absolutely smoked us in the bubble. In one more season, Svech has 89 goals, 120 assists to Kakko’s 26 goals and 32 assists.
Kakko would only need… 63 goals and 88 assists for 151 points in a single season to catch up. I know, I know… not all players are GENERATIONAL like Andrei freaking Svechnikov. God, we’d better temper our expectations for our own 2OA having literally less than 50% of the success in over 75% as many games. Shame on us. He’s doing FANTASTIC just the way he is. Unless he was on a different team. Then, LOL bust, we hang up laughing if you try to trade that shit here.
All I’m saying is, you guys have rose colored double standards and aren’t evaluating the kids realistically. The kid line has accomplished f*** all and if this is our barometer for acceptable success we can expect to not see another Cup for 30 more years.
Let’s look at completely non-generational, never hyped as generational players. Andrei Svechnikov and Kaapo Kakko had nearly identical hype at the draft. Both get taken #2OA a year apart. Let’s not bullshit about Svech getting more opportunity - Carolina had been better than us that entire time with Aho, Teravainen, Staal, Trochek, Neiderreiter, etc. Kakko’s rookie year was Svechnikov’s sophomore year and they absolutely smoked us in the bubble. In one more season, Svech has 89 goals, 120 assists to Kakko’s 26 goals and 32 assists.
Kakko would only need… 63 goals and 88 assists for 151 points in a single season to catch up. I know, I know… not all players are GENERATIONAL like Andrei freaking Svechnikov. God, we’d better temper our expectations for our own 2OA having literally less than 50% of the success in over 75% as many games. Shame on us. He’s doing FANTASTIC just the way he is. Unless he was on a different team. Then, LOL bust, we hang up laughing if you try to trade that shit here.
All I’m saying is, you guys have rose colored double standards and aren’t evaluating the kids realistically. The kid line has accomplished f*** all and if this is our barometer for acceptable success we can expect to not see another Cup for 30 more years.
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I'm talking about progress and growth over time. Basic concept.
And I didn't use Crosby, that's you again twisting arguments to suit yours.
Kakko is playing good hockey, I said the kid line has been fantastic at times, they created a lot of chances in the Canes game even if they didn't score. You are the one banging on about production, yet the kids created chances and with time they will score on those chances. It's called progress and growth. You are handpicking weak stats to make your point (+/-), ignoring strong stats that refute them, such as advanced stats.
Nobody is arguing against the fact the kids are not "producing points" at a certain clip, but they are in fact producing solid play, even "fantastic" for their age and position on the team. You are pointing at semantics, reducing Kakko's play to make your artificial point. He is often one of the better forwards on the team impacting the team positively, even if your subjective take is different for whatever reason. It's not as if he didn't get stars on occasion this season before the injury/injuries.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
Hard to disagree with anything you've said over the course of this discussion. I've been pleased overall with the play of Laf, Chytil, and even Kakko but some of the words being thrown around to describe their play is quite over the top in my eyes. If Jack Hughes, Nico Hischier, and Jesper Bratt were producing like the Rangers kids they would be getting destroyed by Ranger fans. Obviously things like luck and TOI and lack of PP play a role in their production and that should be taken into account but at the end of the day they need to do more to garner the amount of superlatives they have gotten.
Your standard for the use of the word “fantastic” needs to go up about 100%. The kid line is literally, BARELY doing what is expected of them without being a liability. They are all, very significantly, disappointments. If you want to remain infatuated to the point of denying reality, be my guest. I still LIKE all 3 of them. I also now don’t expect a single one of them to ever be a point per game player, see Laf as an outside chance to be a 70 point guy and see Kakko and Chytil, long term as great third line/not so good second line players. If you think they still have all star potential, I apologize, but I think you live in Lego land.
In your subjective opinion. That's the point.
edit: In time, when the kids (Laf, Kaapo) are where Panarin, Zib et al are now, mature and leading their own teams I am quite sure they will be PPG players or close enough. They have the talent.
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