Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[LokiDog]

You could also say that the +/- is the Nemeth factor that made even Igor play like shit and lead to EN goals against boosting the minus side.

Your argument goes along the line of Kakko "doing nothing", people being depressed about the kids based on "other team's fans" calling them busts etc. Right.

That would assume that all of Nemeth’s - came while the kid line was on the ice, which we know not to be the case. Trying to pass it off on Nemeth just because their numbers match is disingenuous. The kid’s line has allowed twice as many goals against as they’ve produced.

 

[McRanger92]

The kids have done nothing. I’m baffled that people are really so desperate to give them such kudos. They have managed to not be liabilities while also not producing. That’s the moral victory we’re striving for as our 2OA’s ELC expires now? If so, that’s a sad indication of his performance to date.

I think thats a bit unfair to the Kid Line. Their play in G5 against PIT turned that series around, before the vets woke up and took over. And by and large they've been good. For a group of 21 year olds, who are not expected to carry the load for this team, its very positive to see them consistently in the middle of things.

I do agree that Kakko's offense has been disappointing. More Joel Armia than the Mikko Rantanen we expected thus far.

 

[bobbop]

Kaapo seems to have lost his confidence. Incidents like the game 1 miss in Carolina certainly haven’t helped. He seems to be profiling as a change of scenery candidate.

A while back, I speculated that he might be available to be moved this summer. (and I heard it from a lot of quarters) Nothing I have seen since has changed my mind.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Skating can be fixed, he just has to work for that and someone in the organization should be pounding that fact into his head. Yes, he has taken skating lessons in the recent off seasons but clearly not enough. How about this organization actually starts to develop its young players? Because they are obviously having a hard time figuring it out themselves. That's what a top organization in the league should be able to do. And don't tell me the Rangers are not a top organization. Someone needs to sit down with Kakko and have a plan how to train his skating and shot next season. f*** the weights, he's decent enough in size. Time to focus on more critical areas.

All true. Whether it's Kakko himself or the organization the emphasis needs to be on improving his first step/acceleration.

 

[LokiDog]

I think thats a bit unfair to the Kid Line. Their play in G5 against PIT turned that series around, before the vets woke up and took over. And by and large they've been good. For a group of 21 year olds, who are not expected to carry the load for this team, its very positive to see them consistently in the middle of things.

I do agree that Kakko's offense has been disappointing. More Joel Armia than the Mikko Rantanen we expected thus far.

Yes, okay, this is and has been my point (even if not expressed well). I’m not complaining about the kids. I’m saying “whoa, why are some of you giving them so much credit”? There’s a difference between saying the kids suck, I hate these bums, blah, blah and saying… they’ve been okay, I don’t see whatever it is you think you’re seeing, they still can’t produce to save their lives.

My point is we’re acting like by playing adequate hockey, which is basically what they’ve done - been adequate-to-good, but certainly nothing special - suddenly he’s projecting as a Rantanen or equally valuable player, worthy of 2OA hype. In reality, he’s only playing well RELATIVE to how badly he’s played at other times and how low the expectations are for him. He’s still, very much, projecting as an Armia and that’s… disappointing to say the least. Certainly, nowhere near good enough as we move into his second professional contract.

 

[McRanger92]

Yes, okay, this is and has been my point (even if not expressed well). I’m not complaining about the kids. I’m saying “whoa, why are some of you giving them so much credit”? There’s a difference between saying the kids suck, I hate these bums, blah, blah and saying… they’ve been okay, I don’t see whatever it is you think you’re seeing, they still can’t produce to save their lives. My point is we’re acting like suddenly by playing adequate hockey, which is basically what they’ve done - been adequate-to-good, but nothing special, at all - suddenly he’s projecting as a Rantanen or equally valuable player, worth of 2OA hype. He’s still, very much, projecting as an Armia and that’s… disappointing to say the least. Certainly, nowhere near good enough as we move into his second professional contract.

Yeah no one should be worried about Kakko getting an offersheet or anything like that. Hes also definitely getting bridged like Chytil was, and rightfully so.

 

[NYRangers16]

Kakko has had his up and downs during last 1 and a half years, which is normal, but what i have found odd has been that what is does well seems to change every other month.

There was a period he was a god at stealing pucks and forcing turnovers (havent seen any of that this year unfortunately). There has been periods where he never loses the puck. There has been periods where he wins every board battle. There has been periods where he is a defensive machine. Sometimes his playmaking looks excellent.

Only thing consistent about the man is his sh*t finishing

On the last point, we all saw this is Krieder too. With KK he can look absolutely dominating at times. I could state easy conclusions such as, he's lazy, or the development staff is meh, or he is done and buried. But - I see the skill. I wonder why this thread has so many responses after yesterday. Is it due to the relegation to the 4th line, something else?

 

[IDvsEGO]

On the last point, we all saw this is Krieder too. With KK he can look absolutely dominating at times. I could state easy conclusions such as, he's lazy, or the development staff is meh, or he is done and buried. But - I see the skill. I wonder why this thread has so many responses after yesterday. Is it due to the relegation to the 4th line, something else?

Can we also remember that Kakko is just now as old as Kreider in his first nhl season.
Kakko can still improve. And when he flashes he shows brilliance.

 

[CLW]

Yes, okay, this is and has been my point (even if not expressed well). I’m not complaining about the kids. I’m saying “whoa, why are some of you giving them so much credit”? There’s a difference between saying the kids suck, I hate these bums, blah, blah and saying… they’ve been okay, I don’t see whatever it is you think you’re seeing, they still can’t produce to save their lives.

My point is we’re acting like by playing adequate hockey, which is basically what they’ve done - been adequate-to-good, but certainly nothing special - suddenly he’s projecting as a Rantanen or equally valuable player, worthy of 2OA hype. In reality, he’s only playing well RELATIVE to how badly he’s played at other times and how low the expectations are for him. He’s still, very much, projecting as an Armia and that’s… disappointing to say the least. Certainly, nowhere near good enough as we move into his second professional contract.

Whose expectations? What determines the timeline?

Imo the kids are playing fantastic relative to where they are, deep in the playoffs playing against some of the best players in the world. People's emotional and subjective expectations and opinions are up to them.

 

[LokiDog]

Whose expectations? What determines the timeline?

Imo the kids are playing fantastic relative to where they are, deep in the playoffs playing against some of the best players in the world. People's emotional and subjective expectations and opinions are up to them.

Okay, fair enough. That’s your opinion. And this kind of my point… “fantastic”? The kids are playing “fantastic”? They’re averaging 3.3 points each through 11 games with Laf accounting for 50% of all production. This is why I think they’re being given far too much credit. Patience is a virtue is just a saying. These are professional athletes. It’s okay to expect actual results eventually. My opinion is that they are painfully pedestrian, and simply adequate. To me it seems people can only feel they’ve been ”fantastic” because of how far they have become accustomed to adjusting their expectations for them, and that it will ultimately cost us when we squandered their entire ELCs without getting a single season from one of them that was above value.

The timeline? It’s variable but roughly the same for virtually all top 10 picks. Not top 1 or 2, but even going with the averages for top 10 picks, they’re verging on very disappointing. I mean, Kakko’s only 1-2 years younger than like Suzuki, Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson, Svechnikov, B. Tkachuk, Q. Hughes and was drafted higher than all of them. Literally like 12-24 months younger. Only Svech was #2 pick and he’s destroying Kakko in every capacity imaginable. Even like Evan Bouchard outproduced Kakko heavily this year and he’s a Dman I figured would bust from the year prior. I’m all for being patient, but there is also is definitely a rough timeline on which guys drafted 1/2 are expected to start making some impact. What’s being accepted as “proof of progress” for Kakko right now is way below the threshold of reasonable expectations.

 

[Nickmo82]

Kakko and Laf are still "suffering" from getting drafted by a team that didn't flat out suck. Most teams that pick top 3 are garbage and the drafted players walk into top line, top special teams minutes and are forced to be the top point getters. Both these kids got drafted into being supporting players with scant PP time and it shows in their stats. Doubly so now they are in the post-season as minutes matter even more. Kakko's production has been especially frustrating for sure, but he's still developing and is getting a lot of great experience with hard fought post-season play. I'm as pessimistic as person as they come, but I still hold out hope that he'll become more consistently productive.

 

[LokiDog]

Kakko and Laf are still "suffering" from getting drafted by a team that didn't flat out suck. Most teams that pick top 3 are garbage and the drafted players walk into top line, top special teams minutes and are forced to be the top point getters. Both these kids got drafted into being supporting players with scant PP time and it shows in their stats. Doubly so now they are in the post-season as minutes matter even more. Kakko's production has been especially frustrating for sure, but he's still developing and is getting a lot of great experience with hard fought post-season play. I'm as pessimistic as person as they come, but I still hold out hope that he'll become more consistently productive.

I’m A-okay with holding out hope. I’m less okay, and this is what I’ve been driving at, with why people have been saying the kids have been “fantastic” and then saying I “hate” the kids and am a hater when I say they’ve just been adequate.

 

[bbny]

Kaapo seems to have lost his confidence. Incidents like the game 1 miss in Carolina certainly haven’t helped. He seems to be profiling as a change of scenery candidate.

A while back, I speculated that he might be available to be moved this summer. (and I heard it from a lot of quarters) Nothing I have seen since has changed my mind.

Has Kakko ever really had confidence to lose at the NHL level? It feels like the same old stuff has been regurgitated the entire time. "He just needs to get a few goals to get his confidence up, then the sky is the limit. You'll see!". Three years later...

I agree with you. I think he's low-key on the block this summer. If he is not moved, we'll all still be rooting for him to succeed. No true Rangers fan ever wanted him to be unsuccessful.

 

[NYRangers16]

Can we also remember that Kakko is just now as old as Kreider in his first nhl season.
Kakko can still improve. And when he flashes he shows brilliance.

I agree. And I think people expect too much. He was never considered an instant star. Not everyone is McDavid, or (eww) Crosby. Sometimes guys take time. Also, I agree wholeheartedly that confidence is key. The Quinn years, while productive, may have held him back by not letting him opportunity to gain that confidence. But I'm not worried. Laffy is already showing how this works. He didn't take over the league in year 1, but you see it in these playoffs. Kakko will get there if given the opportunity. And it's not like we even need him to with the rest of this roster.

 

[Rongomania]

This thread is a sewer. So many of the same people here down on Kakko were also questioning jt Miller and Tony D's progression at much later ages than 21. I can also count a few of the same who thought Key should play in the AHL this season.

I thought Lias was going to be a stud for us, we all can be wrong. I was wrong with jt Miller too.

Out of all the aforementioned players, Kakko is the absolute last one I would give up hope on or say he'll never crack 70pts.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I’m A-okay with holding out hope. I’m less okay, and this is what I’ve been driving at, with why people have been saying the kids have been “fantastic” and then saying I “hate” the kids and am a hater when I say they’ve just been adequate.

The kids line drove production in the pens series when our vets were not.
Our vets are now producing again, which is great, but wouldn’t be able to without the kids.
The kids got more time the more they produced and the less the vets produced.
Now it’s back to give the vets more time.

 

[bbny]

I will say it is wild to me that people seem to be upset about Kakko getting demoted or potentially scratched, as if he deserves more than that, when the team is going toe-to-toe with a top favorite in the East. When attachment to an individual player seems to overtake attachment to the team, I don't know...feels backwards. Feels like some people only want team success on their terms, otherwise they have tendency to pull for team failure in order to be proven right.

If Kakko stays in the lineup, gets moved up in the lineup, gets more ice time, etc., I'll sure as hell be rooting for it to work for the team's sake. I couldn't care less if it goes contrary to some opinion I have on Kakko being pretty close to a soft waste of space out there right now. I want to see a Stanley Cup win first and foremost.

 

[LokiDog]

The kids line drove production in the pens series when our vets were not.
Our vets are now producing again, which is great, but wouldn’t be able to without the kids.
The kids got more time the more they produced and the less the vets produced.
Now it’s back to give the vets more time.

What production? Chytil has 2 goals and 1 assist. Kakko has 1 goal and 1 assist. Both are -4. Where is this production?

 

[CLW]

I’m A-okay with holding out hope. I’m less okay, and this is what I’ve been driving at, with why people have been saying the kids have been “fantastic” and then saying I “hate” the kids and am a hater when I say they’ve just been adequate.

Yeah but this is a half full half empty argument based on subjective opinions. You use Evan Bouchard et al from the 2018 draft, as if that means anything. So far from 2019 it's Hughes, Kakko, Dach, Zegras, Boldy, Seider, Caufield etc making their way into the league. Yes there are other very talented young players from previous drafts playing exceptionally well, does that take anything away from our kids? Hardly. Just look at our stars and where they were when they were 20-21. Panarin, Fox, Kreider, Igor, Zibanejad they were scratching the surface of who they are as players, Fox maybe less so.

This *they must be stars RIGHT NOW* is just weird imo.

 

[EdJovanovski]

At the time of the draft if someone suggested Kakko would have a career high of 23pts at the end of his ELC people would rightfully call them a troll. People's expectations are in the absolute basement now, this guy was supposed to put up more points in his rookie season than he has a in three combined. This guy was our highest draft pick since 1966. Now he MIGHT be a decent middle 6 guy who may have a 50pt season in his prime? If so we should trade him yesterday.

 

[CLW]

At the time of the draft if someone suggested Kakko would have a career high of 23pts at the end of his ELC people would rightfully call them a troll. People's expectations are in the absolute basement now, this guy was supposed to put up more points in his rookie season than he has a in three combined. This guy was our highest draft pick since 1966. Now he MIGHT be a decent middle 6 guy who may have a 50pt season in his prime? If so we should trade him yesterday.

*Supposed*
*If*
*MIGHT*

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I thought he was pretty good games 1-3?

Panarin and Strome have been so much worse.

 

[LokiDog]

Yeah but this is a half full half empty argument based on subjective opinions. You use Evan Bouchard et al from the 2018 draft, as if that means anything. So far from 2019 it's Hughes, Kakko, Dach, Zegras, Boldy, Seider, Caufield etc making their way into the league. Yes there are other very talented young players from previous drafts playing exceptionally well, does that take anything away from our kids? Hardly. Just look at our stars and where they were when they were 20-21. Panarin, Fox, Kreider, Igor, Zibanejad they were scratching the surface of who they are as players, Fox maybe less so.

This *they must be stars RIGHT NOW* is just weird imo.

Why is ours the highest drafted, and the least impactful? Is that just how it be sometimes and his play, complete with 1 goal and 1 assist, is just fantastic anyway? Or do we suck at developing our young forwards, are squandering their ELCs and have good reason to be concerned?

Who the f*** is asking for him to be a star? I’m asking for him to be more impactful than Dryden f***ing Hunt. Pretty massive leap on your part. Why is our #2OA, NHL ready talent going into his 4th professional season, struggling to have more of an impact on games than guys like Hunt and Motte or any other teams’ plug and play, replaceable grinder? I’m not asking for star production. I’m not even asking for top six production. I’m asking for ANY production.

Unlike you guys, I’m not willing to give him a f***ing hand job for simply existing and not sucking, just because we drafted him. He literally cannot produce at an average third liner level going into his 4th NHL season despite being touted as an NHL ready 2OA talent, and I should agree with people who say he’s playing fantastic?

 

[LokiDog]

*Supposed*
*If*
*MIGHT*

Lower expectations because they’re our property. If the Devils, Flyers or Penguins had drafted Kakko and they were trying to package him for a decent player off our roster right now you would tell them to literally f*** themselves. But we drafted Kakko, so you’re just telling anyone who thinks he doesn’t deserve all that much praise to f*** themselves instead.

 

[LOFIN]

Lower expectations because they’re our property. If the Devils, Flyers or Penguins had drafted Kakko and they were trying to package him for a decent player off our roster right now you would tell them to literally f*** themselves. But we drafted Kakko, so you’re just telling anyone who thinks he doesn’t deserve all that much praise to f*** themselves instead.

The difference is, those teams might have been able and willing to develop him and Laf properly and thus not be in this position.