Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[NYRFANMANI]

meh, I'll book this under "Loki - The trickster god"

 

[Foxy]

You really think this kid line is just going to morph into a trio of point per game players despite every indication that they are woefully behind their peers? I admire the optimism, but one of us is being significantly more realistic than the other.

Woefully behind their peers Lol. Only 19 players from the 2019 draft have even 10 points in the NHL and only 10 from the 2020 draft do. They are way ahead of most of their age group. Do a redraft for 2019 and Kakko still goes top 10, and in 2020 Laf still goes top 5.

I don't get where this sudden panic is coming from. Kakko is playing like he has all year, all of the skill none of the finish. Also, they were only realistically expected to be supporting players this postseason and they are playing fine for the most part.

 

[LokiDog]

meh, I'll book this under "Loki - The trickster god"

Fair enough; I’ll appreciate the willingness to let me slide if it’s a bad take instead of wanting to crucify me.

Maybe it’s because my wife was induced 40 hours ago, given more pitocin yesterday and still isn’t in labor so I’m just being crabby.

My ultimate point was that I just don’t see it with KK. I’m not mad at him or blaming him for anything, I just think that he has been “fine”. Some people seem to think he’s been awesome. I just don’t see it.

If you told me today I could put $50 on Kakko eventually being a 60+ point player or being a less than 50 point player, and if I chose correctly, my son would get $50,000 when he turned 18, I’d take Kakko being an under 50 point player without hesitation.

That’s not out of hatred or a desire for him not to succeed. That’s just what I see. I don’t know why that means I’m a hater; personally I think you’re all just being homers. I still think if Kakko was on any other team most of the people telling me to be patient would be agreeing with me 100%.

I think Kakko has been FINE. I think Chytil has been fine. I think Laf has been pretty good. Saying the kid line has consistently been our best line is hyperbole. They’ve had some good shifts that had no results and they’ve been on the ice for more more goals against than they’ve created.

I just don’t know why it’s a problem to say that they’ve been fine, not great, and that Kakko is quickly heading toward Lehkonen/Armia territory and not top-six forward territory. If fans of another team were trying to trade you Kakko and telling you he still had the value of a top 10 pick, you would laugh at them.

 

[Cuckoo4Kakko]

Saying they've been fine is fine. But if they've been fine, line 2 has been atrocious. The kids line cooled down from earlier in the playoffs. No doubt. But they also weren't rewarded for their better play with more minutes, just like Panarin and Strome haven't been punished for bad play.

 

[Peltz]

I hate the broken-record discussions, because it forces me to be a broken record too in my response.

Put Kakko on any team without any top-6 options, number will look different.
This guy got a paranoid coach for two years, logjams all over the place (top-6), on Broad-f***ing-way and so on.

Call it excuses, I call it logical.

I'm convinced some people just don't have the eye to see it. The smoothness in puck-control, how exceptional it is.

Like that pure magical silkness pass to Chytil, which was a 100%er, if it had not been for a desperation SAVE by Raanta.
That is a great example for HFNYR's crazyness btw. Some immediately started shitting on Chytil, as if we didn't just witness one ridiculous monster save. Just accept it, move on.

Kakko passes the eye test at times for me too. He's highly inconsistent though.

There have been games where I thought he was our best forward on the ice. There are other games where he almost doesn't touch the puck.

2 things about his game are fairly consistent and great to see though:

1. I love Kakko's game without the puck in the neutral zone. I cannot tell you how many times he's read an opponent's passing play beautifully and broken up the play and sent us into the offensive zone. He generates defensive-minded turnovers and that is a good thing.

2. His passing and overall puck handling around the faceoff circles of the offensive zone, and behind the net, is silky smooth. He can stutter step and shoot, fake the shot and pass, and just plain hang onto the puck against the boards while getting smacked around by protecting the puck with his body.

2b. As a bonus, the kid looks good on shootouts - I think he can help us get those regular season points by taking more shootout shots.

To me, Kakko's game isn't very flashy, nor will it ever be. But I like the way he plays even if he doesn't end up more than an average second line player. I really think if he hit that empty net, people wouldn't be complaining as much right now. And yes, execution matters. But it's not like Kakko is playing badly.

Take a step back and evaluate him as a 21 year old NHL player rather than as a 2nd overall draft pick with the (at times) absurd expectations that could bring, and I think it's pretty clear he's ahead of the curve for his age.

Some players just take longer to develop like Buchnevich did. On a team like the Rangers where he's still making net-positive contributions, and isn't required to score a point per game don't have any issues with staying positive and upbeat about the progress we're getting with him. If at 24 he's still not scoring, then I'll worry.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Fair enough; I’ll appreciate the willingness to let me slide if it’s a bad take instead of wanting to crucify me.

Maybe it’s because my wife was induced 40 hours ago, given more pitocin yesterday and still isn’t in labor so I’m just being crabby.

Well shit. That could certainly have something to do with it. I wish you all the best!

---

As you said, I have to assume, you just don't see it. I'd still advocate being patient (re Kakko), not trading him and rejoice in two years.

 

[LokiDog]

Saying they've been fine is fine. But if they've been fine, line 2 has been atrocious. The kids line cooled down from earlier in the playoffs. No doubt. But they also weren't rewarded for their better play with more minutes, just like Panarin and Strome haven't been punished for bad play.

Have you seen me absolutely berating Panarin in the other thread? Panarin has been straight ass and I have said as much, loudly and consistently. I hate Strome so I just ignore him at this point.

 

[bhamill]

… that wasn’t the point, at all. The point was that the list of players who break out in years 4/5 of their careers - especially top 5 draft picks who entered the league at 18/19, rather than guys who played in college or the AHL until they were older - is significantly shorter than the one of guys who have started to figure it out by now.

As Fitzy pointed out with the Sedins, it does happen, certainly. The point is that the number of top 3 picks who finish their ELC with a career high of of 23 points and then suddenly turn into top six players is pretty low. There aren’t really any solid indicators that anyone can point to that suggest Kakko is going to be more than a responsible third line/bottom six player right now. In fact the only thing you can point to that contradicts that is his draft pedigree which has not translated into the type of success typically seen from top 3 picks after three years in the league.

It has nothing to do with who is better now. It has to do with success so far being an indicator of where they should be in 3 more years. I’m not seeing anything that indicates Kakko is ever going to have a top six impact in this league at all.

Again, I don’t know why this means that I want him to fail to some of you. This is 100% how you would be analyzing a prospect on any other team that had Kakko’s draft pedigree + first three seasons. When you guys do it to other teams’ prospects your “just being honest” but when it comes to your own prospects you have some rose colored glasses. Apparently you’re not allowed to be honest about your own guys.

You talked about how hes doing in comparison to his peers. So yeah, MY point was in two years nobody will care who was doing what right now. And not all of us despair when we arent instantly gratified. You’re comparing different players in totally different situations and making proclamations. How are his peers doing in these playoffs? Yeah, in two years nobody will care about that either. I didn’t say you want him to fail… I said what I said.

And more importantly, hope all is well with your wife and (soon to be) newborn!

 

[bhamill]

Have you seen me absolutely berating Panarin in the other thread? Panarin has been straight ass and I have said as much, loudly and consistently. I hate Strome so I just ignore him at this point.

Yeah. A weird thing for me to say in a way but: I really hope he is playing hurt.

 

[LokiDog]

You talked about how hes doing in comparison to his peers. So yeah, MY point was in two years nobody will care who was doing what right now. And not all of us despair when we arent instantly gratified. You’re comparing different players in totally different situations and making proclamations. How are his peers doing in these playoffs? Yeah, in two years nobody will care about that either. I didn’t say you want him to fail… I said what I said.

The point is obviously not the direct comparison to his peers but whether nor not he is tracking like a top 5 pick. If he wasn’t drafted where he was, would you be watching him play right now and thinking “that guy is gonna score 70 points someday?

I’ve never actually said trade him, btw. He certainly wouldn’t be untouchable in my eyes but I’ve never advocated cutting bait. I’ve advocating tempering expectations. The only reason he has expectations is because of where he was drafted. But the only reason any of you (at least in my mind) could conceivably watch him play and think he’s a future 60 point player is also because of where he was drafted.

I expect Kakko to have a long NYR career. I just expect it to be a lot closer to a homegrown Goodrow or lesser Dubinsky. I don’t see a guy who is ever going to put up 60+ points. I’m fine with that, but I think that’s being way more realistic than thinking the breakout is coming any day now. 40-50 point reliable third liner who can slot up. A better Fast/worse Dubinsky. That’s what I see, at his peak.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I hate the broken-record discussions, because it forces me to be a broken record too in my response.

Put Kakko on any team without any top-6 options, number will look different.
This guy got a paranoid coach for two years, logjams all over the place (top-6), on Broad-f***ing-way and so on.

Call it excuses, I call it logical.

I'm convinced some people just don't have the eye to see it. The smoothness in puck-control, how exceptional it is.

Like that pure magical silkness pass to Chytil, which was a 100%er, if it had not been for a desperation SAVE by Raanta.
That is a great example for HFNYR's crazyness btw. Some immediately started shitting on Chytil, as if we didn't just witness one ridiculous monster save. Just accept it, move on.

Bottom-6 players who have gotten top-6 minutes over Kakko and/or Lafrenière:

Jesper Fast
Colin Blackwell
Dryden Hunt
Sammy Blais
Frank Vatrano

 

[EdJovanovski]

The point is obviously not the direct comparison to his peers but whether nor not he is tracking like a top 5 pick. If he wasn’t drafted where he was, would you be watching him play right now and thinking “that guy is gonna score 70 points someday?

I’ve never actually said trade him, btw. He certainly wouldn’t be untouchable in my eyes but I’ve never advocated cutting bait. I’ve advocating tempering expectations. The only reason he has expectations is because of where he was drafted. But the only reason any of you (at least in my mind) could conceivably watch him play and think he’s a future 60 point player is also because of where he was drafted.

I expect Kakko to have a long NYR career. I just expect it to be a lot closer to a homegrown Goodrow or lesser Dubinsky. I don’t see a guy who is ever going to put up 60+ points. I’m fine with that, but I think that’s being way more realistic than thinking the breakout is coming any day now. 40-50 point reliable third liner. That’s what I see, at his peak.

I know I suggested we trade him yesterday if that’s really his ceiling now, but I don’t want that to be taken as I’m saying he sucks and we should have zero hope. I’m saying if we truly see his ceiling as a 3rd like two way winger we should trade him while he still has that draft pedigree that a team will take a flyer on. I think this is probably the last offseason where teams will still value him for being a top pick, if he has yet another unproductive season he will be labeled a bust

 

[Cuckoo4Kakko]

I think if he's labeled a bust and we can get him on a cheap contract, fine with me. He seems like the kind of guy you win in May and June with. Someone who is responsible in their own end and a bear along the boards who keeps possession.

 

[LokiDog]

I think if he's labeled a bust and we can get him on a cheap contract, fine with me. He seems like the kind of guy you win in May and June with. Someone who is responsible in their own end and a bear along the boards who keeps possession.

This I see. And I’m happy to say that if that’s all you’re looking for than he is a good guy to have on your roster and will be valuable for us. My issue has been the idea that these kids are going to break out or should be the new 2nd line next year. I only see Laf as having genuine top six offensive upside. Kakko, like I said - better Fast/worse Dubinsky. Versatile third liner who can slot up but not a bonafide top six offensive player. Disappointing for a 2OA, but still a good piece and if we can keep him cheap because of it, that’s fine. It just will suck that’s all he turned out to be at his draft position. I just think anyone who still think this kid ends up in the 60-80 point range is living on a prayer.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Bottom-6 players who have gotten top-6 minutes over Kakko and/or Lafrenière:

Jesper Fast
Colin Blackwell
Dryden Hunt
Sammy Blais
Frank Vatrano

Bad coaching, bad line-ups, special teams

 

[Cuckoo4Kakko]

This I see. And I’m happy to say that if that’s all you’re looking for than he is a good guy to have on your roster and will be valuable for us. My issue has been the idea that these kids are going to break out or should be the new 2nd line next year. I only see Laf as having genuine top six offensive upside. Kakko, like I said - better Fast/worse Dubinsky. Versatile third liner who can slot up but not a bonafide top six offensive player. Disappointing for a 2OA, but still a good piece and if we can keep him cheap because of it, that’s fine. It just will suck that’s all he turned out to be at his draft position. I just think anyone who still think this kid ends up in the 60-80 point range is living on a prayer.

I think on a line with Panarin and Copp he'd be great. I see him and Panarin playing catch along the boards. He can do the dirty work a bit and Copp has great vision when Kakko brings 2 his way and can move it for a quick pass. A Kakko for Strome trade makes this team WAY better next year IMO.

 

[B17 Apricots]

Is this all because he missed an open net?

 

[LokiDog]

I think on a line with Panarin and Copp he'd be great. I see him and Panarin playing catch along the boards. He can do the dirty work a bit and Copp has great vision when Kakko brings 2 his way and can move it for a quick pass. A Kakko for Strome trade makes this team WAY better next year IMO.

I’ll buy that. I still don’t think he’s got the big offensive upside, but sure if he can stick with Panarin for a whole year, he can put up respectable totals. That would be kind of like what I said. What Dubi was to Jagr or a better version of what Fast was for Panarin. If he can get quicker, especially.

I guess it’s been the (few, admittedly) posts saying next year we go:

Panarin - Zib - Kreider
Laf - Chytil - Kakko

As the top two lines. I don’t think the kid line is a thing. I don’t think they are breaking out or they are going to be a viable second line. I see Laf as being a guy who is probably a legitimate top six player and Kakko as an A+ third liner who can succeed in a specific role like the one you’re outlining. I’m fine with that - I LIKE Kakko. I just think we should be prepared for a Lehkonen or Fast type of player. A bit better, sure. I don’t think he’s ever going to live up to his draft position.

 

[Foxy]

The point is obviously not the direct comparison to his peers but whether nor not he is tracking like a top 5 pick. If he wasn’t drafted where he was, would you be watching him play right now and thinking “that guy is gonna score 70 points someday?

I’ve never actually said trade him, btw. He certainly wouldn’t be untouchable in my eyes but I’ve never advocated cutting bait. I’ve advocating tempering expectations. The only reason he has expectations is because of where he was drafted. But the only reason any of you (at least in my mind) could conceivably watch him play and think he’s a future 60 point player is also because of where he was drafted.

I expect Kakko to have a long NYR career. I just expect it to be a lot closer to a homegrown Goodrow or lesser Dubinsky. I don’t see a guy who is ever going to put up 60+ points. I’m fine with that, but I think that’s being way more realistic than thinking the breakout is coming any day now. 40-50 point reliable third liner who can slot up. A better Fast/worse Dubinsky. That’s what I see, at his peak.

I'm the opposite. I watch him play and say how is this guy not a 60 point player. He has all the skill in the world. At times the puck is glued to his stick and he can be a monster along the boards. I'm pretty sure power forwards tend to take a little longer to develop, so I'm still holding out hope that he can become a good 1st/2nd liner who has consistent 60pt seasons.

Even this season, if you remove his insane 10 game cold streak to start the year he had 18 in 33, a 44 point pace. I know I'm cherry picking, but to me its easier to see him improving slightly or even just getting more PP time to close the gap to 60 rather then stagnating. That said, GG right now sees him closer to how you see him, and if he never gets more ice time or plays him on the 4th line next year you will probably be right, and he is what he is.

 

[LokiDog]

Is this all because he missed an open net?

…no? It’s because he has 60 total points after 171 NHL games including the bubble and this post season and has 2 points in these playoffs?

 

[CLW]

Bottom-6 players who have gotten top-6 minutes over Kakko and/or Lafrenière:

Jesper Fast
Colin Blackwell
Dryden Hunt
Sammy Blais
Frank Vatrano

And what is the context? You can include Copp too.

These guys listed are not kids, they are mature players on a team that is 100% in win now mode. ⁸They are complementary players to the team's dominating stars in the top 6 who have their own particular style.

If anything Laf and Kakko have much better chemistry between them than with the top 6, but obviously they are not ready to lead yet relative to the mature stars. Why is it even an issue?

The stat biting and draft fornication is so ridiculous.

Others have covered Kakko's strengths and weaknesses very well in this thread. Every year around this time we keep saying he needs to improve his skating, especially the first few steps. That's constructive criticism and the difference between a growing player and the finished product. If Kakko can improve his skating he will be more than fine, if not he will struggle to reach his potential.

 

[duhmetreE]

he lacks a killer instinct/alpha personality. Maybe it takes him longer to get comfortable and grow into his potential

His shot needs to be better and when it's better, he has to use it WAY more.

He put in the work to grow physically. I feel like a lot of our offensive prospects forgot they still need to develop and sharpen their offensive tools. All effort has gone to defensive side of the game and physical strength. The best players in the league do everything. Shooting pucks and skill drills are just as important as resistance training.

I feel like this org has done a horrendous job in helping their players develop.

 

[LokiDog]

Shooting pucks and skill drills are just as important as resistance training.

So that’s why I didn’t make it.

 

[duhmetreE]

So that’s why I didn’t make it.

yes. Those calfs are too pedestrian

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Man, has this thread descended into a hot pile of poo.