Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[Peltz]

Yes. There is good organizational depth at wing, which is a good part of the reason to cut the losses now. One more no-show year from Kakko and he will be more in line with worthless bust more than valuable commodity. Right now, he should still have plenty of value. I just think the Rangers are deep enough with current wings and prospects, and a good enough team now, to capitalize on what is now their first window of winning a Cup.

Let’s say Drury decides to keep Strome and let Copp walk, and Kakko’s bridge deal is the difference between being able to afford Copp or not. What is 1) the likelihood of Kakko being better than Copp down the road (if better, how much better)?, and 2) how long before that happens? Even if it does happen, it could be long enough away and detrimental enough that it could potentially sand bag the first window of contention by limiting the potential of the roster before the young generation (Laf/Miller/Schneider/Othmann/Cuylle/etc) replaces the current core - thereby wasting Zib/Panarin/Kreider/Igor/Trouba primes over the next 3-4 seasons. Kakko to Copp is currently a monumental upgrade to the roster.

WTF is this post? Keeping Strome? Getting rid of Kakko who is a far better 2 way player for less cap hit?

Enough of this.

 

[Peltz]

You are either drastically overrating Copp or drastically underrating Kakko.

Kakko may be the best defensive winger on the team already.

Copp had a career high of 26 points through his age 25 season. Kakko paced to fly by that total in pandemic shortened 1st and 2nd years and again in this injury shortened year. He just turned 21. It will be shocking if he doesn't reach Copp's numbers at this stage. The question is, will Kakko still ever reach 50-60-70-80 point thresholds which he always had the ability to do?

There's no way I'm choosing Copp over Kakko long term (or short term, since keeping Kakko short term is necessary to keep him long term).

If the financial straights are that dire, you move Goodrow first. You're not dealing Kakko without a Zegras-like return.

Kakko just needs his offense up to speed. Copp's certainly didn't take off until way later in his career.

Copp on defensive steroids is like Kakko's worst case career scenario.

These guys get it. Kakko already has a very mature 2 way game TODAY. The kid has just been injured. Honestly, I think he's a better player than Copp already since he doesn't commit as many penalties or turnovers. You can slot him in where Copp is right now and not miss a beat in my opinion except on faceoffs when strome is thrown out of the circle.

 

[mas0764]

These guys get it.

"These guys" was just me. Also we've had some nasty fights in the past so I do hope you take that into account next time we are arguing that not all my ideas are bad.

 

[Chytilmania]

Copp has been a PPG player with Panarin. Let's just make it Panarin-Copp-Kakko together. They can afford it.

 

[Peltz]

"These guys" was just me. Also we've had some nasty fights in the past so I do hope you take that into account next time we are arguing that not all my ideas are bad.

We have?

I don't think I've ever really fought with anyone on here.

 

[bbny]

You're nuts dude. Kakko is going to be a top 6 player (easily). He arguably already can do it today.

WTF is this post? Keeping Strome? Getting rid of Kakko who is a far better 2 way player for less cap hit?

Enough of this.

These guys get it. Kakko already has a very mature 2 way game TODAY. The kid has just been injured. Honestly, I think he's a better player than Copp already since he doesn't commit as many penalties or turnovers. You can slot him in where Copp is right now and not miss a beat in my opinion except on faceoffs when strome is thrown out of the circle.

The aggressive responses simply sound like emotional attachment for what Kakko at #2 was supposed to be for the franchise, rather than the reality of the situation. Copp has almost as many points in 13 games as Kakko has in 41 this year. Kakko could very well be better than Copp X years down the road. It might be 2 years down the road. It might be 5 years down the road. It might also be never. But the reality is it is definitely not today.

 

[mas0764]

We have?

I don't think I've ever really fought with anyone on here.

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

 

[mas0764]

The aggressive responses simply sound like emotional attachment for what Kakko at #2 was supposed to be for the franchise, rather than the reality of the situation. Copp has almost as many points in 13 games as Kakko has in 41 this year. Kakko could very well be better than Copp X years down the road. It might be 2 years down the road. It might be 5 years down the road. It might also be never. But the reality is it is definitely not today.

Copp has certainly lit it up in his 13 games here, averaging like a point per game, but that is not really indicative of what he has been anywhere else or at any other time.

If you'd be thinking that Copp will be a ppg player next season I think that's tremendously unlikely. He probably returns to about a 50 point ish player, which, other than this season, would be a career high by at least 11 points (and he was pacing for 51 with Winnipeg). Maybe he can reach 60 playing with Panarin.

He's also 27.

19-21 year old Kakko is outproducing 21-24 year old Copp by clear margins offensively, and 21 year old Kakko is at least nearly equal if not outright better than 27 year old Copp defensively.

There's too many on here who are in a rush to trade away Kakko because they feel it will substantiate their silly "sell the future to win now," mentalities, which they've gone to the mattresses defending and can't back down now without losing face.

The truth is Kakko may never be the franchise 90 point player we had hoped but there is reason to be patient with his slow offensive progress and be reassured by his really excellent defensive metrics. If he can be a 65 point shut down wing that's still a winning first line player and I'm in no rush to move off that.

Goodrow is making $3.6m and is performing by most measurable metrics as a bottom 6 player if not a bottom liner. No one wants to talk about moving him. Why? You guessed it. Slavish devotion to their espoused "win now," theories will not let them entertain moving a team-endorsed veteran because it means they take the "L" in these debates. I'm not calling for Goodrow to be cut, but he's definitely a target if fat needs to be trimmed to keep nearly impossible to replace young talent like Kakko. You have to tank to get a Kakko. A Goodrow can be acquired in just about any offseason for a late pick..... like we got him for.

 

[bbny]

Copp has certainly lit it up in his 13 games here, averaging like a point per game, but that is not really indicative of what he has been anywhere else or at any other time.

If you'd be thinking that Copp will be a ppg player next season I think that's tremendously unlikely. He probably returns to about a 50 point ish player, which, other than this season, would be a career high by at least 11 points (and he was pacing for 51 with Winnipeg). Maybe he can reach 60 playing with Panarin.

He's also 27.

19-21 year old Kakko is outproducing 21-24 year old Copp by clear margins offensively, and 21 year old Kakko is at least nearly equal if not outright better than 27 year old Copp defensively.

There's too many on here who are in a rush to trade away Kakko because they feel it will substantiate their silly "sell the future to win now," mentalities, which they've gone to the mattresses defending and can't back down now without losing face.

The truth is Kakko may never be the franchise 90 point player we had hoped but there is reason to be patient with his slow offensive progress and be reassured by his really excellent defensive metrics. If he can be a 65 point shut down wing that's still a winning first line player and I'm in no rush to move off that.

Goodrow is making $3.6m and is performing by most measurable metrics as a bottom 6 player if not a bottom liner. No one wants to talk about moving him. Why? You guessed it. Slavish devotion to their espoused "win now," theories will not let them entertain moving a team-endorsed veteran because it means they take the "L" in these debates. I'm not calling for Goodrow to be cut, but he's definitely a target if fat needs to be trimmed to keep nearly impossible to replace young talent like Kakko. You have to tank to get a Kakko. A Goodrow can be acquired in just about any offseason for a late pick..... like we got him for.

We probably don’t agree on how good the current core and team can be over the next 2-3 seasons. I have read many of your posts and I enjoy the POV, but I do not agree with the approach of always looking at the future as if the grass will be greener than it is today.

Copp has been a 55-60 point pace player 2 years running now. I agree the Rangers stint is a small sample size, but there is a Panarin effect to consider. Copp has played with both Ehlers and Scheifele at ES, who are both very good, but they are not the playmakers that Panarin is. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider Copp might be a 60-70 point player with Panarin. Similar to Strome, except a better overall player who can play in all situations. It’s what you hope Kakko is in X number of years. So I’m not sure why it’s ridiculous to trade a guy who we hope might be a future Copp, rather than just keep Copp with what we have now. Especially with the stable of wingers on the team and in the system.

 

[Synergy27]

We probably don’t agree on how good the current core and team can be over the next 2-3 seasons. I have read many of your posts and I enjoy the POV, but I do not agree with the approach of always looking at the future as if the grass will be greener than it is today.

Copp has been a 55-60 point pace player 2 years running now. I agree the Rangers stint is a small sample size, but there is a Panarin effect to consider. Copp has played with both Ehlers and Scheifele at ES, who are both very good, but they are not the playmakers that Panarin is. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider Copp might be a 60-70 point player with Panarin. Similar to Strome, except a better overall player who can play in all situations. It’s what you hope Kakko is in X number of years. So I’m not sure why it’s ridiculous to trade a guy who we hope might be a future Copp, rather than just keep Copp with what we have now. Especially with the stable of wingers on the team and in the system.

In fairness to Mas, who o generally sympathize with, hoping for Kakko to be a Copp type a few years from now is definitely lowering the bar for him. I think many are still holding out hope that he’s a better player than that.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Trading Kakko to make room for Strome would be peak stupidity.

 

[Peltz]

The aggressive responses simply sound like emotional attachment for what Kakko at #2 was supposed to be for the franchise, rather than the reality of the situation. Copp has almost as many points in 13 games as Kakko has in 41 this year. Kakko could very well be better than Copp X years down the road. It might be 2 years down the road. It might be 5 years down the road. It might also be never. But the reality is it is definitely not today.

No the response is from watching him play. Kakko is a 2 way player, not just a goal scorer and his cap hit will be low enough to extend. He can slot into a top 6 role easily.

And he has tremendous upside where, even if he doesn't end up being an elite scorer, he'll still kill penalties, create turnovers, and get 50 points a season at a minimum.

His game is a lot like Marian Hossa's. And that's someone I'd want on the Rangers. He's a natural right wing on Panarin's line and I think he'd be just as successful as Copp there.

 

[bbny]

No the response is from watching him play. Kakko is a 2 way player, not just a goal scorer and his cap hit will be low enough to extend. He can slot into a top 6 role easily.

And he has tremendous upside where, even if he doesn't end up being an elite scorer, he'll still kill penalties, create turnovers, and get 50 points a season at a minimum.

His game is a lot like Marian Hossa's. And that's someone I'd want on the Rangers. He's a natural right wing on Panarin's line and I think he'd be just as successful as Copp there.

Reads like a pre-draft scouting report.

And he hasn’t been just as successful as Copp on Panarin’s line. Or anywhere close.

 

[Cuckoo4Kakko]

Trading Kakko to make room for Strome would be peak stupidity.

Doing ANYTHING to make room for Strome would be peak stupidity.

 

[bhamill]

"These guys" was just me. Also we've had some nasty fights in the past so I do hope you take that into account next time we are arguing that not all my ideas are bad.

Okay. This made me laugh.

 

[bhamill]

Reads like a pre-draft scouting report.

And he hasn’t been just as successful as Copp on Panarin’s line. Or anywhere close.

He’s 21 and been injured, both playing with it and missing months. Before he was hurt he was very good... And again, just 21.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

Someone has to put Dillion on his ass.

 

[mas0764]

We probably don’t agree on how good the current core and team can be over the next 2-3 seasons. I have read many of your posts and I enjoy the POV, but I do not agree with the approach of always looking at the future as if the grass will be greener than it is today.

Copp has been a 55-60 point pace player 2 years running now. I agree the Rangers stint is a small sample size, but there is a Panarin effect to consider. Copp has played with both Ehlers and Scheifele at ES, who are both very good, but they are not the playmakers that Panarin is. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider Copp might be a 60-70 point player with Panarin. Similar to Strome, except a better overall player who can play in all situations. It’s what you hope Kakko is in X number of years. So I’m not sure why it’s ridiculous to trade a guy who we hope might be a future Copp, rather than just keep Copp with what we have now. Especially with the stable of wingers on the team and in the system.

The funny thing is that I’m not ALWAYS a “grass is always greener in the future,” guy. I was one of the strongest advocates of signing Panarin when others said it was out of step with our rebuild.

I just am forced to adopt this position in the face of people who want to move forward with just one 30 year old center of any substance, or who want to pay $8m to a second pair defender, or trade our necessary young talent for aging vets so we can have a long shot 2 year “window,” with them like it's 1994 again.

 

[Whoot Whoot]

How long is KK out ?

 

[Crease]

How long is KK out ?

According to Gallant he’s week-to-week but could be back in six days.

 

[chosen]

Also like how Del Zotto is better than Cale Makar

Someone said that?

 

[chosen]

I think he was shining a lot this season already. Even last game when he got hurt, I liked what I saw.

In the game he got hurt, one could argue that that was the worst lineup seen all season by any team in any game this season.

 

[chosen]

Niemi better than Lundqvist

Did someone ever say that?

 

[chosen]

Kakko is not untouchable anymore. Fairly or unfairly, him basically losing a full season to injury when he had a chance to make himself a clear core piece over Lafreniere & Kravtsov has put the Rangers in an interesting spot. Lafreniere is younger and has already shown more offensive ability than Kakko, and looked better on the top line with Mika & Kreider. Kravtsov is an older player and seems like he will be retuning to the fold next year. Even Brennan Othmann has distinguished himself as one of the best wing prospects in the league. Theres only 2 top 6 wing spots available. Not all of these guys are going to be on the team next year and Kakko will be making the most $. Something will have to give, especially if Drury want to bring back some of the established NHLers who have impacted this team in such a positive way post deadline.

Putting Othmann ahead of Kakko in any way, right now, makes zero sense to me.

 

[McRanger92]

Putting Othmann ahead of Kakko in any way, right now, makes zero sense to me.

I'm not saying he's ahead, I'm saying there are a multitude of young winger options in the organization. Its also pretty likely Othmann starts next season in NY