Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko: Part IV

[HatTrick Swayze]

I absolutely refuse to believe, even for a second, that we landed a pair of top-two picks in back-to-back drafts, who were the consensus picks at their draft positions, both of whom are projected to be elite and one of which is projected to become a bonafide franchise player, and they both turn out to be busts. That would be utterly unprecedented.

It defies all logic. I refuse to believe what is going on is *only* luck. There is no way the ENTIRE hockey world was so far off, twice. It's frustrating but despite what I post here I'm trying to stay positive.

 

[CupSeeker]

This team coulda swapped the picks had had Hughes first in 2019 and Stuz 2nd in 2020 and they would both be struggling just as much if not more then Laf and Kak are

Hughes coughs up the puck all night. Blind passes. Prayer passes to space. Quinn would have him focusing on his d-zone responsibilities and would be sitting him after each such giveaway. Both kids will be great, it will take longer than we hoped. But on the bright side, next year is the first year of the post rebuild. If they are productive next year, I won't give a shit what happened in this crazy year.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Really starting to believe @Machinehead when it comes to the cultural thing. It just makes no goddamn sense how you can get two of these guy and both struggle this mightily. It happens once sure it sucks but it happens, but twice?? Everyone top down should be fired for this embarrassment

I looked up their comparables (draft position)

 

[FireGerardGallant]

I looked up their comparables (draft position)

No this is a totally normal thing that happens to every top pick in the draft.
Only recluse there is you got some good players like Nolan and Jumbo Joe behind Laf

 

[Synergy27]

It defies all logic. I refuse to believe what is going on is *only* luck. There is no way the ENTIRE hockey world was so far off, twice. It's frustrating but despite what I post here I'm trying to stay positive.

It sucks that we even have to think about this. Nothing comes easy though right? The real kick in the nuts is going to be when the players picked at the spots we jumped out of by winning the lottery turn into the franchise players.

 

[CLW]

Right, the Rangers have always been bad at this and I don't think you can just ignore that. One quick example: Kovalev was outstanding everywhere else. He was just good here. It's not like hoodoo or anything like that but teams very rarely have hard resets. Somebody is always around from the last regime and so on and so forth. Things get passed on.

The Rangers are very old school. They come from an era where you cut your teeth and broke in at 23. But there were six teams then and everybody back then would be a star in a 32 team league. It was harder to get in.

I always go back to the same thing which is that these guys just look scared to do anything. And I don't think the team cares about the production. I think they care whether or not these guys learn whatever it is Quinn wants them to do. That's the old school approach.

Over on defense, Fox, Lindgren, and Miller just got thrown out there mostly because our defense is hot butt and we had to. And you know what? It works. Fox and Lindgren are amazing and yeah Miller f***s up all the time, but he's still really exciting and he scores more than Laf and Kakko do as sad as that is.

I don't think the Rangers have ever gotten away from that "cut your teeth" development.

And I'm not gonna turn this into another Quinn crucifixion but he's very into that also. In the NCAA, you kinda just watch until it's your time.

This, in my view moronic, old school approach is what gets me. I've said it before, Kakko and the other European talents are raised NOT to play stupid back and forth pond hockey - yet here he is in the NHL having to play college level pond hockey with an old school coach who nails his butt to the bench if he makes a mistake, or somebody else screws up. There is no creativity or deeper understanding or, most important of all, actual coaching going on.

The NYR scouts are doing a great job finding talents throughout the rounds of the drafts, yet when they come to the big club they are met by this sh*t? Absurd.

Look at what, for example, Carolina and Brind'Amour are doing. They have an intelligent plan, work hard, train and lead the players to achieve their goals. The NYR under Quinn is just a hot mess of utterly outdated hockey thinking. Mature players like Panarin/Zib/Kreider/Buch are doing ok but that has nothing to do with Quinn's approach or coaching, they'd be fine anywhere else too.

 

[CLW]

To build on my post above. Once you have reached a certain level, you get to be rewarded by becoming part of the Ranger Nice and Cozy Big Boy Club, where the Most Important Thing (MIT) is to look after your own precious butt. Watching the Rangers as an organization I get the feeling this is the most important goal.

Not sure where players like Laf and Kakko fit into this picture.

 

[DanielBrassard]

His skating is still a problem, and he's never going to be the player he was expected to be if he doesn't improve there IMO. I get you don't have to be a burner to be a star but he's never able to create enough separation from his checks to get into high danger scoring areas or open up passing lanes to his teammates in high quality areas. He's also a non-factor when it comes to transporting the puck up ice.

 

[Scott r]

Very much why I dont follow the hype. Lafren looks worse...ot he was bad. Kakko....who knows. The guy who went number 1 to kakko isn't do that well. Too mu h disappointment has me not involved. There have been many who hadnl hype..and didn't do it.

 

[rdhstlr23]

I looked up their comparables (draft position)

I mean...awful. I don’t know how anyone can still think Kakko’s going to be great. At this point, we hope he’s good.

 

[Scott r]

His skating is still a problem, and he's never going to be the player he was expected to be if he doesn't improve there IMO. I get you don't have to be a burner to be a star but he's never able to create enough separation from his checks to get into high danger scoring areas or open up passing lanes to his teammates in high quality areas. He's also a non-factor when it comes to transporting the puck up ice.

I'm guessing prospects have to get better to play here...and both of these haven't. Really gets to a point of realizing the inevitable

 

[Synergy27]

I wish we could get a candid interview with him or Laf, or that someone in the org would openly speak on the kids.

Ok, you guys gave us “the letter”. This is a transparent organization and we are all in this together right? Well, clue us in on the plan. Tell us, directly, what you are asking these kids to do and not to do, and what you think of their progress so far.

I’d feel a hell of a lot better about this ongoing lack of production if I didn’t have to sit here contemplating the universe of potential explanations. Just tell me that you’ve told these kids to focus on defense, not turning the puck over, and being “complete” players so I can stop worrying that their high end talent hasn’t vanished into a wormhole under the NJ Transit tracks in Penn Station.

Is that too much to ask?

 

[Scott r]

This, in my view moronic, old school approach is what gets me. I've said it before, Kakko and the other European talents are raised NOT to play stupid back and forth pond hockey - yet here he is in the NHL having to play college level pond hockey with an old school coach who nails his butt to the bench if he makes a mistake, or somebody else screws up. There is no creativity or deeper understanding or, most important of all, actual coaching going on.

The NYR scouts are doing a great job finding talents throughout the rounds of the drafts, yet when they come to the big club they are met by this sh*t? Absurd.

Look at what, for example, Carolina and Brind'Amour are doing. They have an intelligent plan, work hard, train and lead the players to achieve their goals. The NYR under Quinn is just a hot mess of utterly outdated hockey thinking. Mature players like Panarin/Zib/Kreider/Buch are doing ok but that has nothing to do with Quinn's approach or coaching, they'd be fine anywhere else too.

Maybe it is...but I doubt a player who is lacking ability will get better skills under another coach. If you do believe that Quinns an issue, Gordon n Davidson need to dismiss him. I just don't know how much, if any, improvement will be made. Time to possibly move both these kids ??

 

[Scott r]

I wish we could get a candid interview with him or Laf, or that someone in the org would openly speak on the kids.

Ok, you guys gave us “the letter”. This is a transparent organization and we are all in this together right? Well, clue us in on the plan. Tell us, directly, what you are asking these kids to do and not to do, and what you think of their progress so far.

I’d feel a hell of a lot better about this ongoing lack of production if I didn’t have to sit here contemplating the universe of potential explanations. Just tell me that you’ve told these kids to focus on defense, not turning the puck over, and being “complete” players so I can stop worrying that their high end talent hasn’t vanished into a wormhole under the NJ Transit tracks in Penn Station.

Is that too much to ask?

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. I think focusing on the coach as being the issue is an exaggeration. Kovalev example was spot on...no fans no pressure..still look lost. ..lafren doesn't have it...might have to move him...sadly

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. I think focusing on the coach as being the issue is an exaggeration. Kovalev example was spot on...no fans no pressure..still look lost. ..lafren doesn't have it...might have to move him...sadly

Move him????

 

[True Blue]

This is another thing you keep harping on and another thing that I don’t think anyone disagrees with. That said, who is responsible for that? To me it’s the team/management. They have made what appear to be at minimum questionable decisions that have adversely impacted his early development.

Who bears a large portion of the responsibility? Probably a lab in Wuhan.

We can all hope that these impacts will be mitigated over time but all we have right now is a 1OA who is struggling to produce and a bunch of potential reasons why. Similar to how his entry into the league was unprecedented, his path from where we are today to the superstardom we are hoping for is just as murky.

The latter is far easier to see and believe in than believing that he is a bust. He was inches away from scoring a goal.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. I think focusing on the coach as being the issue is an exaggeration. Kovalev example was spot on...no fans no pressure..still look lost. ..lafren doesn't have it...might have to move him...sadly

I agree it is not all on Quinn, but I think he is a factor here. The rangers have two options, they could make a shakeup trade or they could replace Quinn and see what happens. But if Quinn is a big reason that the rangers look like trash, then a shakeup trade would just be more of the same.

This is why everyone wants to see Quinn fired as a priority. We can't actually evaluate this team or individual players until we see how they play under someone else. If they still suck then, then we will know it wasn't just a coaching problem. But replacing the coach is the best low risk high reward move they can make first.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

To build on my post above. Once you have reached a certain level, you get to be rewarded by becoming part of the Ranger Nice and Cozy Big Boy Club, where the Most Important Thing (MIT) is to look after your own precious butt. Watching the Rangers as an organization I get the feeling this is the most important goal.

Not sure where players like Laf and Kakko fit into this picture.

Kakko fit in on the top line with Kreider and Zib last night. Laff has gotten countless opportunities in the top 6. Where would you like them to play?

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. I think focusing on the coach as being the issue is an exaggeration. Kovalev example was spot on...no fans no pressure..still look lost. ..lafren doesn't have it...might have to move him...sadly

Yes, trade him for a few seconds and a third line RW. Great idea. 27 games is enough for me to come to the conclusion this guy is toast.

 

[TheDirtyH]

His skating is still a problem, and he's never going to be the player he was expected to be if he doesn't improve there IMO. I get you don't have to be a burner to be a star but he's never able to create enough separation from his checks to get into high danger scoring areas or open up passing lanes to his teammates in high quality areas. He's also a non-factor when it comes to transporting the puck up ice.

He's not a burner, but he's clearly a good skater at this point. He's like a bigger Patrick Kane, where Kane can slip under and around checks and back defenders off with sublime stickhandling, Kakko engages players, pulls them towards himself, and tempts them into playing the body while he plays the puck through them. He still needs to get stronger to make this work, but it's evident that he's as much a savant in the corners as we thought he'd be draft day--the improvement year 1 to 2 should only continue. In transition, he's been very good. He's not Brayden Point, but he's been consistently good at making short area passes at or before the bluelines that get the puck to players with speed behind them (the flip to Gauthier last night maybe the most flashy example), and he makes smart dumps when he has to.

All I want to see Kakko do more of is take the puck to the net himself. This was in the end what made him such a productive player as a teenager against pros. I'd like to see him on PP1 as well because he's only ever looked fantastic there, and for as consistent as his game has been, getting some points would go a long way in a kid's confidence--maybe the deciding factor in whether he makes those net drives or not at this point.

At the same time (@Ola has made this point a lot), those kinds of drives to the middle are the 'riskiest' plays. They're both how offense can be created in waves for your team, but, a bad bounce, and you can have several forwards caught and numbers going the other way. That's where we can wonder about impacts of coaching. I don't see many players on the Rangers do this, but for many, it's really their best asset with the combination of size and skill we have--Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Kreider, Gauthier, Kakko, Chytil, and Lafreniere are all about 6'2" or more, heavy and really skilled players (Kreider and Gauthier the biggest and the least skilled). None of them really do this.

 

[NickyLongLegz]

He's not a burner, but he's clearly a good skater at this point. He's like a bigger Patrick Kane, where Kane can slip under and around checks and back defenders off with sublime stickhandling, Kakko engages players, pulls them towards himself, and tempts them into playing the body while he plays the puck through them. He still needs to get stronger to make this work, but it's evident that he's as much a savant in the corners as we thought he'd be draft day--the improvement year 1 to 2 should only continue. In transition, he's been very good. He's not Brayden Point, but he's been consistently good at making short area passes at or before the bluelines that get the puck to players with speed behind them (the flip to Gauthier last night maybe the most flashy example), and he makes smart dumps when he has to.

All I want to see Kakko do more of is take the puck to the net himself. This was in the end what made him such a productive player as a teenager against pros. I'd like to see him on PP1 as well because he's only ever looked fantastic there, and for as consistent as his game has been, getting some points would go a long way in a kid's confidence--maybe the deciding factor in whether he makes those net drives or not at this point.

At the same time (@Ola has made this point a lot), those kinds of drives to the middle are the 'riskiest' plays. They're both how offense can be created in waves for your team, but, a bad bounce, and you can have several forwards caught and numbers going the other way. That's where we can wonder about impacts of coaching. I don't see many players on the Rangers do this, but for many, it's really their best asset with the combination of size and skill we have--Zibanejad, Buchnevich, Kreider, Gauthier, Kakko, Chytil, and Lafreniere are all about 6'2" or more, heavy and really skilled players (Kreider and Gauthier the biggest and the least skilled). None of them really do this.

Refreshing to see a rational post after reading the past two pages. Kakko has been rounding out his defensive game and I believe that sooner rather than later he will figure out how to tie it together with his “old” game we saw before he was drafted.

Also yeah, I’m really not sure why Quinn refuses to change up the power play even when it’s been ineffective lately. Kakko looked great on it last year. Also wondering why Kakko wasn’t put out for OT last night when it’s clear he excels on the open ice. What a way to build confidence it would’ve been to score an OT winner.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Refreshing to see a rational post after reading the past two pages. Kakko has been rounding out his defensive game and I believe that sooner rather than later he will figure out how to tie it together with his “old” game we saw before he was drafted.

Well... I wouldn't call myself that optimistic that this will happen or that it's heading this way.

 

[Crease]

I looked up their comparables (draft position)

Ouch.

 

[NickyLongLegz]

Well... I wouldn't call myself that optimistic that this will happen or that it's heading this way.

Well it was better than reading posts suggesting we trade both Kakko and laf for Eichel now while their values are high before considering a coaching change lol

 

[McRanger]

I looked up their comparables (draft position)

Add in two top 10 picks literally fleeing the country and you have a lot of weirdness in a short period of time.

 

[Off Sides]

It defies all logic. I refuse to believe what is going on is *only* luck. There is no way the ENTIRE hockey world was so far off, twice. It's frustrating but despite what I post here I'm trying to stay positive.

I just keep looking at Barkov's hockeydb stats in his first two NHL seasons while telling myself Kakko's current, 2nd season in the NHL is down because of the covid situation. And I definitely do not look at the 2012 draft.