Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko: Part IV

[True Blue]

I hesitate to get into this with you again, but expectations for top 2 draft picks are simply different than those of late first rounders or thirds like Buch. They by definition should have less developing to do. If Kakko develops and produces on a similar timeline as Buchnevich that is a failure, bottom line.

YOUR expectations. You mean. Of course all top two picks are different. Have they ALL jumped into the league immediately? Have they ALL been teenagers? Has a single one of them in the entire history of the NHL had to come in and not play for 10 months, with the only practice being in a backyard rink? Actually, name one professional athlete in ANY sport that was a top choice and then entered his professional league not having played for 10 months? Bet you can't. In which case painting them all with a single broad stroke seems to be incredibly short sighted.

This roster looks nothing like historical post 1OA rosters. That’s a new reality enabled by the lottery. The Rangers did not, and still don’t, have a roster that’s similar to most teams that pick 1OA.

Does not change the fact that they ARE the youngest team in the league for two years running. With that comes the need to for experience and the need to learn.

For reference, why don't you look at what happened to Tampa for an entire decade after they got the 1OA. A DECADE.

 

[True Blue]

Again that observation has nothing to do with the point I made.

Your point is that in your opinion it is lack of systems among other things. My point is that when you are so young, it takes time.

 

[True Blue]

they keep trying to turn our skilled guys into grinders and it’s pissing me off. let them be skill guys. let them do their thing.

Man, that dump and chase is KILLING them. Except, of course that they do not play dump and chase. So there goes that argument. Grinders usually are not creating offense off the rush. So there's that too.

And, as I am sure you noticed by last night, they outshot, out chanced their opponents. But a team with all grinders will tend to do that.

Oh, and have you seen the sheer grinders that Buchnevich and Mika have become? Man..I hate that. And look what they did to Panarin. Poor soul. That Lafreniere.....making passes that are relegated to grinder levels. And don't even mention Fox. The grindiest of them all.

Woe is them......

 

[True Blue]

IMO it’s legit magical thinking to think the logo or organization name has anything to do with ability to develop prospects. Maybe some management group or another isn’t good at something but the organization going back decades is pure supersition

STOP it. Wayne Gretzky would have been nothing but Jeff Toms under this coaching staff.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Man, that dump and chase is KILLING them. Except, of course that they do not play dump and chase. So there goes that argument. Grinders usually are not creating offense off the rush. So there's that too.

And, as I am sure you noticed by last night, they outshot, out chanced their opponents. But a team with all grinders will tend to do that.

Oh, and have you seen the sheer grinders that Buchnevich and Mika have become? Man..I hate that. And look what they did to Panarin. Poor soul. That Lafreniere.....making passes that are relegated to grinder levels. And don't even mention Fox. The grindiest of them all.

Woe is them......

I’m not seeing much offense made by the rush. a lot of it is cycling and looking for an opening. this depends on which team we’re plsying against of course.

 

[aufheben]

Yeah I’ve noticed this too. He has no system but also has a rigid system that’s stifling skilled kids except for when it doesn’t. Chytil scored a forsberg goal and gets fed minutes. Laf forces passes between four defenders for beautiful assists and gets first line minutes.

Maybe the kids don’t want to, and shouldn’t, be trying to flash skill unless there’s a reasonable chance it’ll pay off?

Or they just don’t have the skill to flash, lol. Right now.

 

[True Blue]

I’m not seeing much offense made by the rush. a lot of it is cycling and looking for an opening. this depends on which team we’re plsying against of course.

The rush will not result in a goal all the time. It is designed to get the puck into the zone. You create off the rush by either being able to set up an odd man rush or cycling the puck, looking for a scoring opportunity.

 

[Synergy27]

YOUR expectations. You mean. Of course all top two picks are different. Have they ALL jumped into the league immediately? Have they ALL been teenagers? Has a single one of them in the entire history of the NHL had to come in and not play for 10 months, with the only practice being in a backyard rink? Actually, name one professional athlete in ANY sport that was a top choice and then entered his professional league not having played for 10 months? Bet you can't. In which case painting them all with a single broad stroke seems to be incredibly short sighted.

Does not change the fact that they ARE the youngest team in the league for two years running. With that comes the need to for experience and the need to learn.

For reference, why don't you look at what happened to Tampa for an entire decade after they got the 1OA. A DECADE.

You do realize that this is the Kakko thread right? And that the excuses made for him last year mostly centered around him having played TOO MUCH hockey post draft?

Also, if you’re telling me that your expectations for a 1 and 2OA are the same as they are for a promising third rounder, my only response is, uh, ok.

 

[Peltz]

You do realize that this is the Kakko thread right? And that the excuses made for him last year mostly centered around him having played TOO MUCH hockey post draft?

Also, if you’re telling me that your expectations for a 1 and 2OA are the same as they are for a promising third rounder, my only response is, uh, ok.

Look at Chytil today vs 2 years ago. These things take time. It's hard to jump into the league at that age even for good players.

 

[aufheben]

Interesting that someone brought up Laine, because I feel like play styles and skill sets don’t get discussed as much as you’d think within this context.

Like...Laine has a literal anti-tank gun for a shot.

 

[will1066]

Kakko has improved a lot. Still, he has some ways to go. He wants to cycle and he wants to play a puck possession game. But he isn't quite there yet in terms of being able to shed people and make that next play after holding the puck a bit and throwing bad angle/prayer shots or passes.

 

[LOFIN]

Interesting that someone brought up Laine, because I feel like play styles and skill sets don’t get discussed as much as you’d think within this context.

Like...Laine has a literal anti-tank gun for a shot.

And many people think that's all he got. That's false, he's also a great passer. But he's not one who goes to battle on corners, and he's not that great on defence. He's not awful like some people call him, but still not great.

Now that you think about it, doesn't it look like Quinn is turning Kakko into Howden? So much better defensively, strong on the puck but afraid to make a play.

That would make a whole lot of sense from why our offense is so inept, to the fact that Howden is never scratched...

 

[Synergy27]

Look at Chytil today vs 2 years ago. These things take time. It's hard to jump into the league at that age even for good players.

I get it. Trust me, I do.

All I am saying is that, I (I doubt it’s just me, but let’s go with it) expect a 1 or 2OA kid to be starting from a baseline level that is higher than a late first, and also to top out at a higher level.

It takes time for a later pick to grow from being not NHL ready to being a good player. If you told me it takes time for our 2OA to go from being a good player to an elite player, I’m right there with you.

It should not take these high picks that much time to be just “good”. That’s supposed to be baked in. That’s why they get picked first.

 

[aufheben]

And many people think that's all he got. That's false, he's also a great passer. But he's not one who goes to battle on corners, and he's not that great on defence. He's not awful like some people call him, but still not great.

Now that you think about it, doesn't it look like Quinn is turning Kakko into Howden? So much better defensively, strong on the puck but afraid to make a play.

That would make a whole lot of sense from why our offense is so inept, to the fact that Howden is never scratched...

Not remotely. What?

I don’t think Kakko responsible defense has hampered his offense generation at all. If anything I think it has allowed him to generate more chances.

I did have a poignant thought last night, though, that being that if Kakko doesn’t eventually start producing (I’m talking 5 years from now, not next week,) I could see him becoming like Val Nichushkin.

 

[Peltz]

I get it. Trust me, I do.

All I am saying is that, I (I doubt it’s just me, but let’s go with it) expect a 1 or 2OA kid to be starting from a baseline level that is higher than a late first, and also to top out at a higher level.

It takes time for a later pick to grow from being not NHL ready to being a good player. If you told me it takes time for our 2OA to go from being a good player to an elite player, I’m right there with you.

It should not take these high picks that much time to be just “good”. That’s supposed to be baked in. That’s why they get picked first.

I hear this, but it's not like Kakko isn't "good". He's not on the score sheet which is different. Last year he was bad. This year he is good. Next year, he will start to score more regularly.

I think Laf will put it together faster to be honest. Next year he'll break out. You can just see it.

 

[LOFIN]

Not remotely. What?

I don’t think Kakko responsible defense has hampered his offense generation at all. If anything I think it has allowed him to generate more chances.

Partly joking here. Kakko has been good all around this year, except scoring. And that's when we come to the fact it's a team issue.

The most important thing would be to get our PP going. Kakko and Panarin both love the puck, they need to be separate. Other than that, mix it all up Quinn. If it looks bad the first 3 chances, mix it up again. We are losing close games because of our abysmal PP.

 

[aufheben]

Partly joking here. Kakko has been good all around this year, except scoring. And that's when we come to the fact it's a team issue.

The most important thing would be to get our PP going. Kakko and Panarin both love the puck, they need to be separate. Other than that, mix it all up Quinn. If it looks bad the first 3 chances, mix it up again. We are losing close games because of our abysmal PP.

IMO this team is average offensively 5v5 and 5v4. Anyone who thinks this team is bad offensively, I suggest watching a few Red Wings and/or Ducks games.

 

[will1066]

And many people think that's all he got. That's false, he's also a great passer. But he's not one who goes to battle on corners, and he's not that great on defence. He's not awful like some people call him, but still not great.

Now that you think about it, doesn't it look like Quinn is turning Kakko into Howden? So much better defensively, strong on the puck but afraid to make a play.

That would make a whole lot of sense from why our offense is so inept, to the fact that Howden is never scratched...

Serious question, and I know Kakko himself said it to Finnish media, but what's the play he's afraid of making?

 

[aufheben]

Like...power plays go up and down. You know why it was so good last year? Because every time Zibanejad touched the puck it went straight into the f***ing net.

This is from 2019-20:

5v4 Goal Differential Above Expected Goal Differential (yes, I know people are sick of hearing about expected goals lol).

The red line denotes approximately how far into the season the 2020-21 Rangers are.

 

[True Blue]

Also, if you’re telling me that your expectations for a 1 and 2OA are the same as they are for a promising third rounder, my only response is, uh, ok.

I would LOVE for you to tell me where I have even alluded to ANYTHING that resembles what you are stating. Come on. Surely you can find one single quote by me that would lead you to believe that.

 

[True Blue]

Now that you think about it, doesn't it look like Quinn is turning Kakko into Howden? So much better defensively, strong on the puck but afraid to make a play.

Oy vey. The next time you see Howden drive a play like Kakko will be the absolute first time. And not really sure what Rangers team you are watching if you can, with a straight face, claim that Kakko's play has led you to believe that he is afraid to make a play.

 

[Synergy27]

I would LOVE for you to tell me where I have even alluded to ANYTHING that resembles what you are stating. Come on. Surely you can find one single quote by me that would lead you to believe that.

Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding your references to Buchnevich and Chytil earlier in this thread.

 

[True Blue]

Perhaps I am simply misunderstanding your references to Buchnevich and Chytil earlier in this thread.

Think that has to be it. Items tend to get lost in print.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Love to see someone outside NY saying something good about Kakko. Dom has a bit on him in his 16 Stats:

4. Last season, there wasn’t a single skater who was less valuable than Rangers rookie Kaapo Kakko. He didn’t score much and was a massive liability at five-on-five. The NHL is a tough league, but it’s not often a rookie looks that bad – mostly because they usually don’t stick around in the big leagues if they can’t cut it. Kakko wasn’t ready and he was worth minus-1.7 wins last season as a result.
This season has been night and day.
While the production still isn’t there, it’s coming soon. Kakko is taking two more shots per game and has greatly increased the quality of those chances. More importantly, his play-driving impacts have improved immensely as he’s looked more determined with the puck and more comfortable without it. Last year the Rangers earned 38 percent of the expected goals with Kakko on the ice. This year they’re at 57 percent – one of the best marks on the team.

 

[rdhstlr23]

I am sure that players like Barkov, Thorton and Marke Messier are not elite either. Did all of the players that you name enter the league at 18? Then played the sophomore year in circumstances like what has happened in the pandemic?

I mean...just do a little research dude. Some of those guys did come into the league at 18.

And I don’t know how many times it has to be said, but comparing the comeuppance of centers and wingers is a poor way of looking at things.

If you want to look at the points I’m making, I’m comparing wingers vs wingers.