Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko: Part IV

[NYR Viper]

I will keep harping this point. Kaapo Kaako appears to be the next Blake Wheeler. His size, strength and playing style are reminiscent of Blake in his mid-to-late 20's. It took Wheeler a considerable amount of time to grow into his body and develop the strength necessary to fill out that frame and become the player he is. In saying that, Kaako is SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of where Wheeler was at the same age.

The way he controls the boards and wins battles, steals pucks and forces turnovers is going to be a nightmare for opponents for years. I think he has been significantly improved and just unlucky. HE had a nice shot last night at the PP that was going top glove side but Jarre made a good save.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Laf and Kakko weren't seen as weak 1st and 2nd overall talents. Maybe not generational like a Crosby/McDavid, but far from weak also.

Right, in fact they were both superb prospects even relative to their draft position. Kakko was literally torching NHL stars at the World Championships just before he got drafted.

The problem is the current state of this franchise, which has been a mess for the past two seasons.

 

[CupSeeker]

he needs to work on his shot badly. That is his big issue right now.

I think his big issue is acceleration. Once he gets going, his skating is fine; in fact his edge work is excellent. As a power forward type who will rely on winning puck battles, using his big body to protect the puck and create space, his body needs to fill out and he needs to completely process the speed of the NHL game. It is coming. We really need to stay patient with him as his 200 foot game is progressing. I also think Quinn has him scared to turn the puck over and he is not taking ANY chances at the offensive blue line which takes potential rush chances and turns them into dump and chase.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

I will keep harping this point. Kaapo Kaako appears to be the next Blake Wheeler. His size, strength and playing style are reminiscent of Blake in his mid-to-late 20's. It took Wheeler a considerable amount of time to grow into his body and develop the strength necessary to fill out that frame and become the player he is. In saying that, Kaako is SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of where Wheeler was at the same age.

The way he controls the boards and wins battles, steals pucks and forces turnovers is going to be a nightmare for opponents for years. I think he has been significantly improved and just unlucky. HE had a nice shot last night at the PP that was going top glove side but Jarre made a good save.

I think this outcome is definitely reasonable, and he’s noticeably improved. In some games he’s been borderline dominant on the forecheck and in the corners.

But I’d bet that if he was on basically any other team in the league, other than maybe Buffalo, he would have had 40-50 in his rookie year.

Have a look at Kakko in the WC and 2019 preseason. Totally different player - Quinn basically broke him down and rebuilt him. Whether that will work long-term remains to be seen.

We’re seeing the same with with Laf right now. Total 180 to the player in juniors and the WJC. Like Kakko, Laf has a bunch of flaws and bad habits from junior. However, if he was on Ottawa and Stutzle was with NYR, their point totals would be flipped as well. Same for Farabee, Wahlstrom, Necas, etc.

There’s a very obvious common denominator here. The NYR.

 

[LOFIN]

Skating is holding back Laine a ton.
I believe in Kakko and believe he’ll be a game changer one day but it has nothing to do with Rautala. He’s just a negative for me.
I’ve seen too many times how these guys train all out on summer and look off shape once the season starts.

Yet you forget to give any credit on how guys like Ristolainen, Rantanen and Kakko, even Laine, have become physical monsters.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

The trainer BS is such a cop-out.

Patrik Laine came into the NHL and put up nearly a PPG as an 18 year old with his “terrible skating”. Kakko was every bit as good of a prospect and looked the part early on. Fast forward to halfway through his rookie season and he couldn’t accept the puck without his legs turning into jello. He was literally taking himself out of position to avoid getting the puck in the neutral zone. That’s something children in pee wee hockey do.

This has nothing to do with having too much muscle mass. It’s because he wasn’t put into a position to succeed.

When you manage someone that’s struggling, your first instinct shouldn’t be to think “what is that person doing wrong?”. It’s to think “what can I be doing to better help this employee succeed?”. This is something NYR management clearly is out of touch on when it comes to forwards. It’s the same reason we had two prospects literally flee to their home countries last year.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

82 GP and 27 points (12 G 15 A).
Again, lots of reasons why this is what it is. I think Kakko will be a good player. I don’t think he’s going to be a star though. He’s off the pace of the top wingers in the game...by a lot.

How can you make this call this early in his career? You're so confident about something you have no idea about.

 

[Blueshirts777]

Elias Lindholm, Blake Wheeler, Huberdeau are top picks that started slow and eventually got there. I do blame this on Quinn, there's no consistency whatsoever with linemates and strategy. The shining light is that he is vastly improving on his two way game, so when the scoring gets there he will be one of the more complete forwards in the league.

 

[haveandare]

The trainer BS is such a cop-out.

Patrik Laine came into the NHL and put up nearly a PPG as an 18 year old with his “terrible skating”. Kakko was every bit as good of a prospect and looked the part early on. Fast forward to halfway through his rookie season and he couldn’t accept the puck without his legs turning into jello. He was literally taking himself out of position to avoid getting the puck in the neutral zone. That’s something children in pee wee hockey do.

This has nothing to do with having too much muscle mass. It’s because he wasn’t put into a position to succeed.

When you manage someone that’s struggling, your first instinct shouldn’t be to think “what is that person doing wrong?”. It’s to think “what can I be doing to better help this employee succeed?”. This is something NYR management clearly is out of touch on when it comes to forwards. It’s the same reason we had two prospects literally flee to their home countries last year.

Kakko did not ever look “every bit as good as” laine when when was scoring ppg. That’s seriously revisionist history.

And this isn’t corporate America, this is sports. Coaches should absolutely diagnose players flaws and address them. That’s a huge part of their jobs. Pretending that we know the details of how any coach is approaching any player in detail is fantasy.

And one player “fled” because of mental health issues he openly talked about and another went to play in his home country which has a popular league to develop NHL players when it became clear the choice was there or Hartford, which is not unusual for young russian players sent to the AHL

 

[CLW]

Rantanen and Laine seem to do just fine skating and shooting

They have ridiculously good shots tho, which helps make up for their less than ideal agility and foot speed.

I doubt the Rangers would let Kakko train under Rautala if they thought it was a major problem. Laf looks like he did a similar program this off season. Laf looks stronger and heavier, but also less agile and explosive (no doubt this could also be optical since the NHL is so much faster). Kakko has the base strength now (Rautala mission accomplished), next is more speed and the mid/long range shot. More Aho speed/agility > Rantanen heaviness.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Kakko did not ever look “every bit as good as” laine when when was scoring ppg. That’s seriously revisionist history.

And this isn’t corporate America, this is sports. Coaches should absolutely diagnose players flaws and address them. That’s a huge part of their jobs. Pretending that we know the details of how any coach is approaching any player in detail is fantasy.

And one player “fled” because of mental health issues he openly talked about and another went to play in his home country which has a popular league to develop NHL players when it became clear the choice was there or Hartford, which is not unusual for young russian players sent to the AHL

The every bit as good was reference to his quality as a prospect prior to the NHL. He also looked great when he first joined the team. He was oozing confidence all over the ice. I don’t think he’s a PPG player in his rookie year in another system, but the discrepancy in points between him and Laine is far smaller.

You don’t need to be “in the know” to see that Kakko was not put in a position to succeed in his rookie year. A coach can simultaneously help a player work out his flaws while putting him in a favorable environment. He failed at the latter. Claiming that Quinn is great at his job and knows exactly what he’s doing is just as naive as saying Kakko’s struggles can be placed on his summer workout routine. He’s handled our forward prospects like dog shit.

I really can’t imagine the mental gymnastics you had to go through to defend the Rangers in the Kravstov and Andersson situations. They’re not disasters, like what we’ve seen this year with DeAngelo and Panarin, but they were crap situations that the organization handled poorly. Both guys basically came out and said they weren’t put in a position to succeed.

We put Quinn, Gorton and JD on these pedestals where they seemingly can do no wrong, to the extent that we had posters insinuating JD was negotiating with the Russian government to defend Panarin. They’re regular guys and are plenty capable of doing a poor job. I don’t need to be in the organization to identify these flaws.

Also, I’m not implying that Quinn hasn’t done some good with Kakko. The two-way game and the board work have come a long way. But I think there was too much emphasis on these factors, to the point where they basically forgot to just let Kakko go out there and figure it out himself.

 

[CLW]

How can you make this call this early in his career? You're so confident about something you have no idea about.

He is just trolling. Repeatedly posting the same post over and over.

 

[BB88]

Yet you forget to give any credit on how guys like Ristolainen, Rantanen and Kakko, even Laine, have become physical monsters.

I know they are strong beast, but if your skating looks like slow motion it will show in my post and on ice product.

This is a skating league, if you want to be a top tier player, a guy to build around you need to know how to skate, no matter if you are a physical beast.

Laine, Kakko were drafted to be franchise guys.

 

[CLW]

Elias Lindholm, Blake Wheeler, Huberdeau are top picks that started slow and eventually got there. I do blame this on Quinn, there's no consistency whatsoever with linemates and strategy. The shining light is that he is vastly improving on his two way game, so when the scoring gets there he will be one of the more complete forwards in the league.

Quinn's "hockey" is the complete opposite to what Kakko was brought up to play. As you say the NYR clearly have a vision of what they want Kakko to become, which is more of an old school power forward to go with their hopelessly outdated on ice approach.

 

[BB88]

The trainer BS is such a cop-out.

Patrik Laine came into the NHL and put up nearly a PPG as an 18 year old with his “terrible skating”. Kakko was every bit as good of a prospect and looked the part early on. Fast forward to halfway through his rookie season and he couldn’t accept the puck without his legs turning into jello. He was literally taking himself out of position to avoid getting the puck in the neutral zone. That’s something children in pee wee hockey do.

This has nothing to do with having too much muscle mass. It’s because he wasn’t put into a position to succeed.

When you manage someone that’s struggling, your first instinct shouldn’t be to think “what is that person doing wrong?”. It’s to think “what can I be doing to better help this employee succeed?”. This is something NYR management clearly is out of touch on when it comes to forwards. It’s the same reason we had two prospects literally flee to their home countries last year.

Laine scored because he has one of the best shots in the league.
Go look at his adv stats and they looked abysmal.

His 5on5 games was talked on and on on the Jets board for a good reason.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Laine scored because he has one of the best shots in the league.
Go look at his adv stats and they looked abysmal.

His 5on5 games was talked on and on on the Jets board for a good reason.

And Winnipeg put him in situations and paired him with players that allowed him to get his shot off. My point is that he had flaws that Winnipeg worked around. They didn’t say “you suck at everything else, so let’s play you on the fourth line to work on your two-way play”.

Look at what Winnipeg has done with its forwards. Schiefele, Connor and Ehlers are fantastic.

Do you think rookie Patrik Laine scores 36 goals last year on the Rangers with Quinn at the helm?

 

[WojtekWolski86]

The trainer BS is such a cop-out.

Patrik Laine came into the NHL and put up nearly a PPG as an 18 year old with his “terrible skating”. Kakko was every bit as good of a prospect and looked the part early on. Fast forward to halfway through his rookie season and he couldn’t accept the puck without his legs turning into jello. He was literally taking himself out of position to avoid getting the puck in the neutral zone. That’s something children in pee wee hockey do.

This has nothing to do with having too much muscle mass. It’s because he wasn’t put into a position to succeed.

When you manage someone that’s struggling, your first instinct shouldn’t be to think “what is that person doing wrong?”. It’s to think “what can I be doing to better help this employee succeed?”. This is something NYR management clearly is out of touch on when it comes to forwards. It’s the same reason we had two prospects literally flee to their home countries last year.

Laine is the modern day Brett Hull. He is known for his shot. He doesn't need to move. Kaako's game is predicated around possession and either outwilling or skilling his way to the net.

Stop comparing Lias "play Fortnite all night" and Kravstov "Russia is better than Hartford" as the management clearly being out of touch. Kravstov could have made the team last year...and you know what would happen? He would be on the 3rd/4th line and in and out of the lineup just like Gauthier trying to figure out his game at the NHL level. Instead management thought it would be better for him to play in the top 6 and PP in Hartford.

The problem is these players have such a high level of entitlement because of draft position they have no idea how much work they need to put into themselves. For every Lias Andersson and insert top 10 draft bust, there is an undrafted or late round pick willing to put in the work and pay their dues.

 

[BB88]

And Winnipeg put him in situations and paired him with players that allowed him to get his shot off. My point is that he had flaws that Winnipeg worked around. They didn’t say “you suck at everything else, so let’s play you on the fourth line to work on your two-way play”.

Do you think rookie Patrik Laine scores 36 goals last year on the Rangers with Quinn at the helm?

Not without being glued next to Panarin.

I don’t mind at all calling out the coach, but can you say change of coach is the only thing holding him back from reaching max ceiling?

I would say coach and skating. Needs to ne faster, needs to be quicker.

Best Finnish NHL players skate and work on their skating during summers, coincidence?

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Not without being glued next to Panarin.

I don’t mind at all calling out the coach, but can you say change of coach is the only thing holding him back from reaching max ceiling?

I would say coach and skating. Needs to ne faster, needs to be quicker.

Best Finnish NHL players skate and work on their skating during summers, coincidence?

Nope, coaching is definitely not the only problem. You’re right. Kakko is definitely not a burner. He had stamina issues, etc.

However, I think we spend too much time analyzing Kakko’s flaws (which absolutely need addressing) and ignore the most likely reason he is struggling, which is staring us right in the face. The franchise, whether it is the coach, the management, the scouting, etc is the common denominator in our struggle to develop forward prospects. It goes beyond Kakko - I don’t need to tell you that.

 

[True Blue]

That is true.

He’s referring to top players/elite players. Look at all the top/elite wingers. They all show it by their 2nd year or by the time they’re 20.

Hall, Gaudreau, Laine, Tkachuk, Stone, Rantanen, Marchand, Marner, Kane, Pastarnak, Ovechkin, Panarin...they all showed it by YR2. All started young.

If you’re looking for Kakko to be elite/a superstar...it’s not looking like he will be.

I am sure that players like Barkov, Thorton and Marke Messier are not elite either. Did all of the players that you name enter the league at 18? Then played the sophomore year in circumstances like what has happened in the pandemic?

 

[True Blue]

They would 1000% be producing in another system.

We didn’t just get unlucky by picking weak first and second overall talents. It’s the team/system/environment/coaching they’re in currently that’s holding them back. And it’s going to do the same for Kravstov and any other skill forward that comes up the ranks in the near future.

Completely correct. Just look at how the team/system/environment/coaching corroded Buchnevich, Chytil, Fox, Miller, Lindgren, DeAngelo. It is a complete travesty the way that Kakko has not shown any improvement since last year. Simply awful.

 

[ColonialsHockey10]

Completely correct. Just look at how the team/system/environment/coaching corroded Buchnevich, Chytil, Fox, Miller, Lindgren, DeAngelo. It is a complete travesty the way that Kakko has not shown any improvement since last year. Simply awful.

Lol, you respond to my post about the Rangers struggle to develop forwards and you name four defensemen and a forward with a career high in points of 23. We’re really getting desperate now.

I don’t even know why I’m wasting my time on this one.

 

[True Blue]

Quinn's "hockey" is the complete opposite to what Kakko was brought up to play. As you say the NYR clearly have a vision of what they want Kakko to become, which is more of an old school power forward to go with their hopelessly outdated on ice approach.

The brand of hockey that Kakko was brought up to play would have given him a wonderful career. In Liga.

 

[True Blue]

Lol, you respond to my post about the Rangers struggle to develop forwards and you name four defensemen.

I don’t even know why I’m wasting my time on this one.

Developing is developing. Have you seen Buchnevich develop? How about Chytil? Heck, want to lump in what Strome is now doing for 3 seasons? If you cannot see the growth in Kakko's game, then you are simply being intellectually dishonest. Or simply do not bother watching games but come on the board to read some narratives.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

They've completely ruined Chytil. They should just trade him, because 1st round skilled draft picks don't fit in this system, never will.