Speculation: Justin Holl Discussion Thread

[JT AM da real deal]

It is crystal clear watching this series that Mo and Lub are da weakest link on D as I have pointed out .. those 2 need to be managed so they don't come on ice when faceoff in our end of ice .. but they are still ok .. Rielly can play PP and get his extra minutes that way .. Brodie and Muzzy need to play almost every 2nd shift and take all da tough shifts .. and give Muzzy a rest here and there and throw in Gio to take some extra shifts with Brodie .. Holl Rielly and Holl should be in 12-15 minutes 5on5 range

 

[IPS]

Goals Against per 60 5v5

1. Holl 1.72
2. Giordano 2.01
3. Muzzin 2.41
4. Brodie 2.43
5. Liljegren 2.64
6. Rielly 3.33
7. Lyubushkin 3.94


Goals For per 60 5v5

1. Liljegren 4.76
2. Brodie 4.02
3. Muzzin 3.96
4. Giordano 2.86
5. Holl 1.96
6. Rielly 1.69
7. Lyubushkin 1.04


Goals For Percentage 5v5

1. Liljegren 64.3%
2. Brodie 62.3%
3. Muzzin 62.2%
4. Giordano 58.7%
5. Holl 53.2%
6. RIelly 33.7%
7. Lyubushkin 20.9%




Expected Goals Against per 60 5v5

1. Holl 1.34
2. Brodie 2.17
3. Giordano 2.24
4. Muzzin 2.66
5. Rielly 3.09
6. Lyubushkin 3.57
7. Liljegren 4.11


Expected Goals For per 60 5v5

1. Giordano 2.98
2. Holl 2.97
3. Rielly 2.61
4. Muzzin 2.57
5. Brodie 2.56
6. Lyubushkin 2.37
7. Liljegren 1.82


Expected Goals For Percentage 5v5

1. Holl 68.9%
2. Giordano 57.1%
3. Brodie 54.1%
4. Muzzin 49.2%
5. Rielly 45.8%
6. Lyubushkin 39.9%
7. Liljegren 30.7%




Other metrics I don't usually use but just for further confirmation:


Shots For Percentage 5v5

1. Giordano 59.5%
2. Holl 53.6%
3. Brodie 52.7%
4. Liljegren 50.5%
5. Muzzin 49.9%
6. Rielly 47.0%
7. Lyubushkin 37.7%


Unblocked Shot Attempts For Percentage 5v5

1. Giordano 56.7%
2. Brodie 55.4%
3. Holl 55.2%
4. Muzzin 51.9%
5. Rielly 50.1%
6. Lyubushkin 41.8%
7. Liljegren 41.4%


Total Shot Attempts For Percentage 5v5

1. Giordano 53.0%
2. Brodie 51.3%
3. Holl 51.2%
4. Rielly 46.9%
5. Muzzin 46.7%
6. Liljegren 41.6%
7. Lyubushkin 39.0%




Poor Mo.

Lol of course you're gonna pretend that it's all Boosh's fault when Mo has actually made a lot of his own mistakes this series.

 

[joepeps]

now do the same with adjustment for harder mins and quality of opponent.

 

[zeke]

Lol of course you're gonna pretend that it's all Boosh's fault when Mo has actually made a lot of his own mistakes this series.

Rielly & Boosh 20.9gf%, 45.8xgf%, 43.3cf%
Rielly no Boosh 100.0gf%, 51.3xgf%, 52.5cf%
Boosh no Rielly 0.0gf%, 9.6xgf%, 13.9cf%

now do the same with adjustment for harder mins and quality of opponent.

Don't think the Mo-Boosh pair is getting very hard qoc.

Muzz-TJ are getting the toughs, and I imagine Gio-Holl are getting at least as hard matchups as Mo-Boosh.

 

[IPS]

Rielly & Boosh 20.9gf%, 45.8xgf%, 43.3cf%
Rielly no Boosh 100.0gf%, 51.3xgf%, 52.5cf%
Boosh no Rielly 0.0gf%, 9.6xgf%, 13.9cf%



Don't think the Mo-Boosh pair is getting very hard qoc.

Muzz-TJ are getting the toughs, and I imagine Gio-Holl are getting at least as hard matchups as Mo-Boosh.

Go through all the GA that pairing let in and see how many are Mo's fault and how many are Boosh's fault.

You did this same scapegoating with Bogosian last year with those same stats yet when the actual GA's were presented to you and how many of them weren't actually Bogosian's fault you straight up never responded.

Those stats become even more questionable in small sample sizes.

 

[zeke]

Go through all the GA that pairing let in and see how many are Mo's fault and how many are Boosh's fault.

You did this same scapegoating with Bogosian last year with those same stats yet when the actual GA's were presented to you and how many of them weren't actually Bogosian's fault you straight up never responded.

Those stats become even more questionable in small sample sizes.

I responded directly to that claim re: Bogo.

People don't seem to be able to appreciate that what looks like one player's mistake can actually him being forced to make a tough play because his teammate is out of position or put him in a bad position or simply not good enough to help or all of the above.

For example - Mo's bad turnover last game - why was Mo the last man back all alone when his D partner is supposedly the defensive stay at home guy?

 

[IPS]

I responded directly to that claim re: Bogo.

People don't seem to be able to appreciate that what looks like one player's mistake can actually him being forced to make a tough play because his teammate is out of position or put him in a bad position or simply not good enough to help or all of the above.

For example - Mo's bad turnover last game - why was Mo the last man back all alone when his D partner is supposedly the defensive stay at home guy?

Actually I'm pretty sure I linked all the gifs of the goals Bogo was on for and I don't remember you responding to it. They included the 2 on 0 OT goal in game 5 and Sandin / Dermott's horrific giveaways.

I get it - it sucks that Liljegren is the one who came out to bring Holl in. The coaching staff is clearly not interested in making the same mistake of having the D too soft - in fact in seems like their confidence in him is growing as the series goes on as he's getting more and more ice time. Seems like it's going to take an extremely bad game by him for the coaching to consider taking him out.

 

[zeke]

Actually I'm pretty sure I linked all the gifs of the goals Bogo was on for and I don't remember you responding to it. They included the 2 on 0 OT goal in game 5 and Sandin / Dermott's horrific giveaways.

I get it - it sucks that Liljegren is the one who came out to bring Holl in. The coaching staff is clearly not interested in making the same mistake of having the D too soft - in fact in seems like their confidence in him is growing as the series goes on as he's getting more and more ice time. Seems like it's going to take an extremely bad game by him for the coaching to consider taking him out.

I responded directly to the claims that Bogo wasn't responsible for his teammates being left all alone trying to love the puck.

 

[Brobust]

Holl has at least 20 games a season where he looks like he's auditioning for The Three Stooges on Ice. The other 60+ games, he's very reliable.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I view a player entirely based on their aav.

Holl is paid as a number 4/5 D. And I think he's adequate at the roll. He's sometimes inconsistent and makes brain cramp mistakes. But that's what 2 mil buys you in the nhl.

 

[Stephen]

Really wild how Holl's supposed pick on Cirelli cost the Leafs the series there. Between typical playoff interference and random Holl miscues on the ice that happen every game where he gets mixed up with an opponent in a non hit situation, you wouldn't think the season would come down to a nothing burger like that.

 

[Gallagbi]

Really wild how Holl's supposed pick on Cirelli cost the Leafs the series there. Between typical playoff interference and random Holl miscues on the ice that happen every game where he gets mixed up with an opponent in a non hit situation, you wouldn't think the season would come down to a nothing burger like that.

It's pretty crazy to be called, especially when it's Holls lane and he doesn't change trajectory.

Then compound it with the Killorn hold that opened up Paul's second goal going uncalled.

Pretty crazy circumstances with the officiating these past 2, even the series on the whole

 

[Hogan86]

When Holl plays to his level (a 5/6 dman) hes actually pretty effective. The guy has 0 pucks skills or offensive flair, and his main problem is when he tries to carry pucks out of the zone or make the low percentage plays that more skilled defensemen make. Then he makes horrible gaffes and looks like a clown. I wish Holl would just simplify his game, like it was 2 years ago. Bank it off the boards, dont hold onto the puck to long and just keep cleared space in front of our own net. That's all he has to do to be an effective bottom pair dman. Once he starts trying make exciting plays, it hurts us big time.

 

[Stephen]

When Holl plays to his level (a 5/6 dman) hes actually pretty effective. The guy has 0 pucks skills or offensive flair, and his main problem is when he tries to carry pucks out of the zone or make the low percentage plays that more skilled defensemen make. Then he makes horrible gaffes and looks like a clown. I wish Holl would just simplify his game, like it was 2 years ago. Bank it off the boards, dont hold onto the puck to long and just keep cleared space in front of our own net. That's all he has to do to be an effective bottom pair dman. Once he starts trying make exciting plays, it hurts us big time.

There are a lot of big body basic defensemen out there populating the third pair of Western Conference teams who know their roles. Guys like Hakanpaa whom the Leafs were in on, Lyubushkin whom we got, guys like Brendan Dillion, etc.

 

[zeke]

 

[Future]

Bottom line is that he can’t come back next year. He’s just not good enough considering our aspirations as a team.

Hopefully we never have to discuss his play ever again. Same goes for Kerfoot.

 

[klmdg]

Bottom line is that he can’t come back next year. He’s just not good enough considering our aspirations as a team.

Hopefully we never have to discuss his play ever again. Same goes for Kerfoot.

Yep, two absolutely brain dead players when it comes to situational decision making

Unfortunately, Holl is a guy Dubas discovered and Keefe molded

'Hey, look how good we are at our jobs, we took a stiff and turned him into a NHL'er'

And that is the reason Keefe threw Lil under the bus after game 2, to justify Holl's inclusion in the lineup

 

[Future]

Yep, two absolutely brain dead players when it comes to situational decision making

Unfortunately, Holl is a guy Dubas discovered and Keefe molded

'Hey, look how good we are at our jobs, we took a stiff and turned him into a NHL'er'

And that is the reason Keefe threw Lil under the bus after game 2, to justify Holl's inclusion in the lineup

Still can’t believe Keefe said those things. And then he made another comment later about how that pairing (Gio & Lil) was not going in both games 1 and 2 when I thought Liljegren was exceptional in game 1. If you want to say he had a poor game 2, sure you’re probably right. But to make up something and hurt a young player’s confidence to justify playing Justin Holl is what I find extremely questionable.

 

[saffronleaf]

this guy sucks ass

 

[Zur En Arrh]

this guy sucks ass

read the last few pages of holls numbers and I was thinking " Maybe I'm wrong about him" then I see this post and I'm like " nope" lol.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

There’s no way this guy sticks around.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

this guy sucks ass

Fr there's literally no other discussion needed

 

[Funk21]

The pairings were part of the problem. We need one PMD and a stay at home defender and when Holl was inserted into the lineup there simply wasn’t the ability break into the zone. Yesterday I watched a team play dump and chase hockey where we got beat to most of the pucks.

Rielly (PMD) Lyubushkin
Muzzin Brodie -no puck moving D man
Gio Holl-Gio is decent but not great

He needs to go. I am so furious at Keefe for falling into the trap of playing vets. Liljegren was fine and should have been reinserted back into the lineup After one or at most two games.

 

[Craigo85]

So Reilly had three goals three assists, 2 points were power play.

Holl had 1 assist.

Where did all the other expected goals go when Holl is on the ice?

I'm not against Holl being a player for us, I just thought Lily would be better overall. I don't put most of the blame for Holl's penalty on him, but if Lily was playing that doesn't happen and we probably have a few other goals throughout games, maybe some more against too.

 

[Shooter2x]

this guy sucks ass

Lmao just casually stroll in and announce