Player Discussion Juraj Slafkovsky, the high offensive potential edition.

[Jaynki]

Sure Slaf learn a few things. But I still think it will set him back a bit, unless he doubles-up on training this summer.

The argument is he would have progressed more and learned more in the AHL and WJ. The reason he was kept in the NHL is also the wrong reason. The result of this is he is less ahead of where he would be, had he followed a better path.

A lot is up to him this summer. We will see how good of character he has.

Hmmm.

I understand your points but i respectfully disagree and would like to share with you my humble opinion.

First, i am not sure he would have learned more or progressed more in the AHL and the WJ. There is no substitute for NHL ice time, even if its 10 min on the 4th line, i think Slaf might have learnt a lot more being coached by MSL and followed closely by Adam Nicholas than he would with Houle. I think practicing and training with an NHL squad was way better for him than being with an AHL squad.

Slaf played in the NHL this season because we had the opportunity to give him stress-free ice time and liberty to make mistake in the NHL without any repercussions. Galchenyuk and KK were not brought up in this context. He would not have had this latitude if we were in a competing phase instead of a development one.

Finally, effectively, a lot is up to him this summer and he will have to show resilience and persistance. This being said, i believe he will be the same players in 5 years, wherever he plays this year.

For example, i also think Jack Hughes would be where he is today if he played in the NCAA in his D+1. I also believe Galchenyuk and Yakupov would have been bust even if they had AHL time before coming up. That is because the real problem is not where they played in their D+1 but something more inherent to their personality/character.

We make a big deal out of this but really i think it was just about exposing Slafkovsky to the NHL and being a bit out of place for a handful of games should not have a long lasting impact on his career, because if it does, the problem is the same that it was with Yakupov and Galchenyuk. And playing in the AHL and the WJ won't change it.

 

[Michelangelo]

Cooley's numbers were good but not great. Slafkovsky has the tool box. The question is does he have the hockey sense. Without that the tools are useless.

what the hell would you qualify as great numbers lmfao

Cooley literally had 60 pts in 39 games in the NCAA's hardest conference

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Cooley's numbers were good but not great. Slafkovsky has the tool box. The question is does he have the hockey sense. Without that the tools are useless.

Toolbox with no tools.

Id rather have some tools and not the whole toolbox empty.

Picking Slaf over Cooley Wright and Jiri and Even Nemec will be a mistake.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Still like the pick but there's no point really arguing until the kid gets back out there he needs to get back out there and stay next season or at least play a year of uninjured hockey somewhere. Until then I ain't stressing over him only so much we can control

 

[NORiculous]

Hmmm.

I understand your points but i respectfully disagree and would like to share with you my humble opinion.

First, i am not sure he would have learned more or progressed more in the AHL and the WJ. There is no substitute for NHL ice time, even if its 10 min on the 4th line, i think Slaf might have learnt a lot more being coached by MSL and followed closely by Adam Nicholas than he would with Houle. I think practicing and training with an NHL squad was way better for him than being with an AHL squad.

Slaf played in the NHL this season because we had the opportunity to give him stress-free ice time and liberty to make mistake in the NHL without any repercussions. Galchenyuk and KK were not brought up in this context. He would not have had this latitude if we were in a competing phase instead of a development one.

Finally, effectively, a lot is up to him this summer and he will have to show resilience and persistance. This being said, i believe he will be the same players in 5 years, wherever he plays this year.

For example, i also think Jack Hughes would be where he is today if he played in the NCAA in his D+1. I also believe Galchenyuk and Yakupov would have been bust even if they had AHL time before coming up. That is because the real problem is not where they played in their D+1 but something more inherent to their personality/character.

We make a big deal out of this but really i think it was just about exposing Slafkovsky to the NHL and being a bit out of place for a handful of games should not have a long lasting impact on his career, because if it does, the problem is the same that it was with Yakupov and Galchenyuk. And playing in the AHL and the WJ won't change it.

I don’t think Yakupov and Galchenyuk are good examples because they had other issues.

How about Turris, Latendresse, Lazar, Bogosian, Brule, Zacha, Virtanen, Jost, à much more… etc.

All guys that were rushed and never reached their potential.

Context with Slaf is a minor ingredient. I don’t see a huge difference between a him playing 10 minutes a game on the 4th line and other guys playing in an environment where the team needs to win while playing a secondary role.

The risk of rushing a prospect is far greater then keeping him down for too long.

Then you add the reason Hughes gave as to why they kept him in the NHL and I think you have all the Ingredients for a fail.

I truly hope he does reach his potential but right now I can’t say I am optimistic.

Hopefully Slaf does have a great character, is training like mad and changes all this. I think that is asking a lot, though. Will see.

 

[NotProkofievian]

But we can both agree that the AHL is not the NHL.

So no matter how much he may have “cracked” the code at the AHL level, he doesn't have the level of exposure and knowledge about the NHL that Slafkovsky does.

I disagree with people who paint Slafkovsky’s year as a failure...there was a ton for him to learn from this year as long as he's got the right attitude.

You're right, success does breed success...but adversity can also be a stepping stone to success to people who are goal oriented, and that goes back to Slafkovsky's attitude.

Slafkovsky seems to have a fine attitude, but his game was still forming by the time we put him into the NHL. He was a guy who showed flashes, but hadn't even beat the game in Liiga yet. The only game he's really beaten at this stage is Finnish Jr. A, and even then not over a full season.

And while Simon didn't play in the NHL this year, he does enjoy something that Slaf doesn't. He's figured out and beaten two pro leagues in two years. Slaf hasn't had that experience. IMO, it would've been nice to give it to him.

 

[Destopcorner]

Hmmm.

I understand your points but i respectfully disagree and would like to share with you my humble opinion.

First, i am not sure he would have learned more or progressed more in the AHL and the WJ. There is no substitute for NHL ice time, even if its 10 min on the 4th line, i think Slaf might have learnt a lot more being coached by MSL and followed closely by Adam Nicholas than he would with Houle. I think practicing and training with an NHL squad was way better for him than being with an AHL squad.

Slaf played in the NHL this season because we had the opportunity to give him stress-free ice time and liberty to make mistake in the NHL without any repercussions. Galchenyuk and KK were not brought up in this context. He would not have had this latitude if we were in a competing phase instead of a development one.

Finally, effectively, a lot is up to him this summer and he will have to show resilience and persistance. This being said, i believe he will be the same players in 5 years, wherever he plays this year.

For example, i also think Jack Hughes would be where he is today if he played in the NCAA in his D+1. I also believe Galchenyuk and Yakupov would have been bust even if they had AHL time before coming up. That is because the real problem is not where they played in their D+1 but something more inherent to their personality/character.

We make a big deal out of this but really i think it was just about exposing Slafkovsky to the NHL and being a bit out of place for a handful of games should not have a long lasting impact on his career, because if it does, the problem is the same that it was with Yakupov and Galchenyuk. And playing in the AHL and the WJ won't change it.

A single hit can have a long lasting impact on his career and he have the terrible tendency to put himself in that spot. Ask Latendresse how he felt at 25 after multiple concussions. Gotta protect our younglings when they're not ready to do it themself.

Would you say Slaf self awareness and hit receiving technique was on par for the NHL?

He could bave been Lindrosed on too many occasion to not be worried.

 

[Jaynki]

A single hit can have a long lasting impact on his career and he have the terrible tendency to put himself in that spot. Ask Latendresse how he felt at 25 after multiple concussions. Gotta protect our younglings when they're not ready to do it themself.

Would you say Slaf self awareness and hit receiving technique was on par for the NHL?

He could bave been Lindrosed on too many occasion to not be worried.

Its an argument that goes both ways. The AHL has improve but i remember Caufield being targeted by f***ing Richard Clune when we sent him down. Slaf might have been one hell of a target down there.

So while i do agree Slaf was not protecting hinself enough and one big hit can have lasting effect, it is also probably the most efficient way to learn how to protect yourselves

 

[Jaynki]

I don’t think Yakupov and Galchenyuk are good examples because they had other issues.

How about Turris, Latendresse, Lazar, Bogosian, Brule, Zacha, Virtanen, Jost, à much more… etc.

All guys that were rushed and never reached their potential.

Context with Slaf is a minor ingredient. I don’t see a huge difference between a him playing 10 minutes a game on the 4th line and other guys playing in an environment where the team needs to win while playing a secondary role.

The risk of rushing a prospect is far greater then keeping him down for too long.

Then you add the reason Hughes gave as to why they kept him in the NHL and I think you have all the Ingredients for a fail.

I truly hope he does reach his potential but right now I can’t say I am optimistic.

Hopefully Slaf does have a great character, is training like mad and changes all this. I think that is asking a lot, though. Will see.

Of all the many busts you listed, not many have played NHL in their D+1.

Also, they all have busted for different reasons that are probably unrelated to being rushed. There are some bad characters players in this list.

Has Jack Hughes and Draisaitl, Lecavalier, Thornton all reached major stardom because they played in their D+1 despite being weak player? Were there other reasons they reached this level in their prime? Like i said, i believe Jack Hughes would be the same players he would be today wheter he played NCAA or NHL in his D+1.

Listen, its possible we failed our 1st overall pick and that he bust or don't become much. But if it happens, i don't think it will be because he played NHL this season. Like it is for Brule, Virtanen or Galchenyuk.

Could we optimize his development curve and ease it ? Yes, probably.

Should it have a long lasting effect on his career? I strongly doubt it.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Of all the many busts you listed, not many have played NHL in their D+1.

Also, they all have busted for different reasons that are probably unrelated to being rushed. There are some bad characters players in this list.

Has Jack Hughes and Draisaitl, Lecavalier, Thornton all reached major stardom because they played in their D+1 despite being weak player? Were there other reasons they reached this level in their prime?

Listen, its possible we failed our 1st overall pick and that he bust or don't become much. But if it happens, i don't think it will be because he played NHL this season. Like it is for Brule, Virtanen or Galchenyuk.

Could we optimize his development curve and ease it ? Yes, probably.

Should it have a long lasting effect on his career? I strongly doubt it.

Why do you strongly doubt it?

 

[Seb]

Is he still eligible for Calder or has he played too many games already?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Is he still eligible for Calder or has he played too many games already?

He's played too many games, the cut off is 25.

 

[417]

The AHL is one step closer and that is the whole idea.

Ok but the NHL is the ultimate goal and even more of the whole idea.

AHL is great and for a lot of players is necessary in their development, especially when the NHL team doesn't have the time/resources required to develop a player in the NHL.

But it is not a requirement or precursor to NHL success, at least not IMO.

If I play chess against someone a little better then me, I can learn something and will progress quickly.

If I play chess against some Crazy AI that destroys me, the steps will be too big and, although I might learn something, my learning curve will be slower because it’s too much over my head.

Sure but that's not how i’d describe Slafkovsky’s first 39 NHL games.

I don't think he got destroyed or the step was too big at all.

But these are all perceptions and perceptions, whether you agree with me on the assessment of his season, or not, aren't what drive the evaluation and progress he's made this year.

There is a reason players get sent down. The reason they kept Slaf in the NHL was the wrong. AKA from Hughes own mouth (something like): «We could have sent him down. Had he been sent down, he would have expected to produce. Because he is in the AHL. What happens if he doesn’t? »

Well that's not the sole reason they kept him up, you're leaving out substantial parts of his reasoning but even if we were to summarize it with this quote.

I don't see how he's wrong?

Protecting your top guy that should have good character… from a lesser league… IN CASE he can’t produce… While he isn’t up to par in the NHL… is beyond insanity.

If adversity can also be a stepping stone… why they hell were they protecting him?

But production was never the ultimate measure of how the team evaluated his progress.

It might be for you or fans in general but again, our expectations as fans, aren't what drives his development.

He could have made significant gains this season without it translating onto the scoresheet.

Additionally, given his usage (just over 12 mins a game) his production was/is in line with that type of usage. I'm not sure why people were expecting him to put up close to a PPG playing 12 mind a game. The entire team struggled to produce, why would the 18 year old be the outlier?

Of course, that's not to suggest he was amazing this year, he wasn't and it also doesn’t mean that a stint in the AHL wouldn’t have been beneficial.

But this was just a snapshot in what will hopefully be a very long career.

 

[417]

Slafkovsky seems to have a fine attitude, but his game was still forming by the time we put him into the NHL. He was a guy who showed flashes, but hadn't even beat the game in Liiga yet. The only game he's really beaten at this stage is Finnish Jr. A, and even then not over a full season.

That's normal and even if somehow they waited until he was 21 or 22 before putting him in the NHL, that statement would remain true.

Again, look at Kaiden Guhle who everyone raved about this season.

If we’re being honest, while he showed a lot
of promising signs...he also got rocked quite a few times that led to him getting injured and he was one half of one of the worst ES pairings in the NHL, lets be real here...he was getting cratered on the ice pretty much every shift.

But the perception is different because he wasn't the recent #1 overall pick…most people didn’t even expect him to make the team.

And while Simon didn't play in the NHL this year, he does enjoy something that Slaf doesn't. He's figured out and beaten two pro leagues in two years. Slaf hasn't had that experience. IMO, it would've been nice to give it to him.

Yes he has but it really doesn’t mean anything until he does it in the NHL…there are a ton of players who had success at lower levels but either leveled off in the NHL or could never stick in the NHL too.

While Slafkovsky didn’t get the same experience, IMO, those 39 NHL games he played last year were more meaningful then the 2 combined years Nemec had in lower level pro leagues, again at least IMO.

It’ll be interesting to see how Slafkovsky plays at camp and during the season.

I suspect if he struggles, folks will automatically say he was rushed and ruined.

But if he shows improvement and has more success, I wonder if anyone will suggest those 39 NHL games he played this year were a springboard for him?

 

[Jaynki]

Why do you strongly doubt it?

How many players have seen their career ruined by being rushed in the NHL?

We can use Galchenyuk as an example but its pretty obvious, in hindsight, that there were other glaring issues that even if he played one more year in the CHL and then AHL, he would probably still be where he is today

Is Jack Hughes so good today because he played at 18? I believe it didnt had an impact in his career. He would be the same player he is today even if he played two more years in the NCAA. But like Slaf this year, in 2019-2020, the Devils had the opportunity to give him NHL times without any pressure, they were at this stage of their organisation and they wanted him to learn it now despite him not being ready to be an impact player.

So yes, i don't believe where Slaf plays this season will have a solid, long lasting impact in his career. We are making a big case out of a nothing burger in my opinion. If Slaf fail, it will be because management have failed their evaluations of his talent and his character more than because he played in the NHL at 18.

Galchenyuk, Dach, KK, Yakupov, Hughes, Draisaitl. Those guys are all at a different point in their career right now and where they played in their D+1 season is probably one of the lesser, meaningless factor in how they evolved as players.

 

[NotProkofievian]

How many players have seen their career ruined by being rushed in the NHL?

We can use Galchenyuk as an example but its pretty obvious, in hindsight, that there were other glaring issues that even if he played one more year in the CHL and then AHL, he would probably still be where he is today

Is Jack Hughes so good today because he played at 18? I believe it didnt had an impact in his career. He would be the same player he is today even if he played two more years in the NCAA. But like Slaf this year, in 2019-2020, the Devils had the opportunity to give him NHL times without any pressure, they were at this stage of their organisation and they wanted him to learn it now despite him not being ready to be an impact player.

So yes, i don't believe where Slaf plays this season will have a solid, long lasting impact in his career. We are making a big case out of a nothing burger in my opinion. If Slaf fail, it will be because management have failed their evaluations of his talent and his character more than because he played in the NHL at 18.

Galchenyuk, Dach, KK, Yakupov, Hughes, Draisaitl. Those guys are all at a different point in their career right now and where they played in their D+1 season is probably one of the lesser, meaningless factor in how they evolved as players.

Why do you think other devils' top prospects ended up spending some extra time in lesser leagues if the Jack Hughes experience was such a resounding success for them. At least it worked out for the Devils, whereas for us it's never worked out. That's why I'm so curious why any habs fan would hold this opinion ''strongly.'' Like, it's never worked for us, what's there to believe in?

 

[LaP]

Why do you think other devils' top prospects ended up spending some extra time in lesser leagues if the Jack Hughes experience was such a resounding success for them. At least it worked out for the Devils, whereas for us it's never worked out. That's why I'm so curious why any habs fan would hold this opinion ''strongly.'' Like, it's never worked for us, what's there to believe in?

Nico Hisher 0 AHL games
Jack Hughes 0 AHL games
Jesper Brat 0 AHL games
Dawson Mercer 0 AHL games
Damon Severson 5 AHL games
Jesper Boqvist 34 AHL games

 

[NORiculous]

But production was never the ultimate measure of how the team evaluated his progress.

That was Hughes words, not mine.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Nico Hisher 0 AHL games
Jack Hughes 0 AHL games
Jesper Brat 0 AHL games
Dawson Mercer 0 AHL games
Damon Severson 5 AHL games
Jesper Boqvist 34 AHL games

Damon Severson - 2 extra junior seasons
Jesper Brat - 1 extra Allsvenskan season
Jesper Boqvist - 2 SHL seasons
Simon Nemec - a bunch of AHL games
Luke Hughes - 2 NCAA seasons
Dawson Mercer - 1 extra junior season

 

[Jaynki]

Why do you think other devils' top prospects ended up spending some extra time in lesser leagues if the Jack Hughes experience was such a resounding success for them. At least it worked out for the Devils, whereas for us it's never worked out. That's why I'm so curious why any habs fan would hold this opinion ''strongly.'' Like, it's never worked for us, what's there to believe in?

Two devils top prospects Hischier and Hughes played at 18. Mercer was also "rushed" at 19 after 23 QMJHL games post draft. They were simply great players and great pick.

Holtz looks like a bust. He would still be a bust if he played at 18. But simply Slafkovsky is a better player at 18 than this guy is today.

Luke Hughes and Nemec has been drafted while the Devils were transitioning from a development stage to a performance one.

Now concerning the Habs, it failed with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi. Would it have failed if we drafted Tkachuk instead of Kotkaniemi tho?

Also, we had such a terrible staff under Bergevin, KK was let to himself. Its not the case with Slafkovsky, i think he was very well surrounded and mentored. I am ready to give the new brass a chance, they have strong experience and we have some hockey brains like we never had in the modern era.

 

[DAChampion]

I really hate this thinking and someone needs to clarify this for me. Why does it matter who we wanted? Are we the ones making the decisions that are going to affect the team? Are we the ones getting paid handsomely to do this with unlimited resources? No, we aren't. It's the exact same thinking as the people saying "ya but many here wanted Zadina instead of KK" as if what I just said doesn't still apply. Our word means f*** all compared to the paid professionals actually trying to draft the best player possible with that pick. Also, Wright/Zadina fell more than expected so there were some obvious red flags that we didn't have access to but the actual NHL teams did.

There are actually a lot of very intelligent and informed posters here. Pointing out that they were wrong helps articulate the obvious point that even intelligent and informed people can make mistakes, which a lot of posters are often in denial of. They conclude that a mistake proves that one is a "moron".

Damon Severson - 2 extra junior seasons
Jesper Brat - 1 extra Allsvenskan season
Jesper Boqvist - 2 SHL seasons
Simon Nemec - a bunch of AHL games
Luke Hughes - 2 NCAA seasons
Dawson Mercer - 1 extra junior season

You just owned LaP.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Two devils top prospects Hischier and Hughes played at 18. Mercer was also "rushed" at 19 after 23 QMJHL games post draft. They were simply great players and great pick.

Holtz looks like a bust. He would still be a bust if he played at 18. But simply Slafkovsky is a better player at 18 than this guy is today.

Luke Hughes and Nemec has been drafted while the Devils were transitioning from a development stage to a performance one.

Now concerning the Habs, it failed with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi. Would it have failed if we drafted Tkachuk instead of Kotkaniemi tho?

Also, we had such a terrible staff under Bergevin, KK was let to himself. Its not the case with Slafkovsky, i think he was very well surrounded and mentored. I am ready to give the new brass a chance, they have strong experience and we have some hockey brains like we never had in the modern era.

Bolded: Who cares? If it's such a great idea why didn't they follow it up with their next top prospects?

And now we have the terrible staff thing, so now development matters? I thought busts were busts, and the cream would rise to the top no matter what?

 

[LaP]

There are actually a lot of very intelligent and informed posters here. Pointing out that they were wrong helps articulate the obvious point that even intelligent and informed people can make mistakes, which a lot of posters are often in denial of. They conclude that a mistake proves that one is a "moron".


You just owned LaP.

I'm not sure i'd call informed someone who say KH did a mistake with SLaf after only 39 games. I'll reserve my judgement of KH decisions after a bigger sample size.

 

[salbutera]

There are actually a lot of very intelligent and informed posters here. Pointing out that they were wrong helps articulate the obvious point that even intelligent and informed people can make mistakes, which a lot of posters are often in denial of. They conclude that a mistake proves that one is a "moron”.

None of us here are hockey professionals, none of us know any dark secrets surrounding certain prospects, if any of the prospects “hate” the idea of playing for Habs / playing for an org w a spotlight / living in Quebec / Canada etc

Being insider informed is more important and none of us are…

Hockey society is an invitation only club, and only certain tidbits of insider info is ever leaked to the greater public

 

[LaP]

Bolded: Who cares? If it's such a great idea why didn't they follow it up with their next top prospects?

And now we have the terrible staff thing, so now development matters? I thought busts were busts, and the cream would rise to the top no matter what?

Ideally you want to bring your young players in waves and surround them with vets. I mean news at 11. Nobody ever argued than bringing a kid at 18 is a GREAT idea. I mean this thread has become so weird it's like a discussion about religion atm.