Player Discussion Juraj Slafkovsky, the high offensive potential edition.

[NotProkofievian]

Ideally you want to bring your young players in waves and surround them with vets. I mean news at 11. Nobody ever argued than bringing a kid at 18 is a GREAT idea. I mean this thread has become so weird it's like a discussion about religion atm.

One side will do anything to continue to argue that development isn't real. The other side just wants us to try something different for once. Not a religious thing at all, just some people are dug in like ticks, and it seems like there's no reason for it.

 

[Hannibal]

I’m still pretty confident in Slaf. He’s young, he has a good head on shoulders and he wants to be better and reach his potential.

Big guy like him takes longer to reach it. That’s just a fact. Just like Dach. He’s turning 21 and we just starting to see the player he’ll become.

 

[Jaynki]

Bolded: Who cares? If it's such a great idea why didn't they follow it up with their next top prospects?

And now we have the terrible staff thing, so now development matters? I thought busts were busts, and the cream would rise to the top no matter what?

I am not arguing that its a great idea. I am arguing that its not an important factor in the outcome of a career.

Management judged that it was a good idea to expose him now to the NHL, to have him practices with the squad and be surrounded by the NHL coaches. They could live with his mistakes and its an excellent opportunity for him to learn the speed and processing of the game. An opportunity he would not have had with an NHL team who wants to play tight and compete for the playoff. You don't think its a defendable position ?

 

[417]

That was Hughes words, not mine.

No, they weren't or at least, I think you misinterpreted that quote...he started multiple times that they weren't focusing on production exclusively.

That's a fan/media narrative...which isn't an unfair one mind you, it's totally normal to expect the 1st overall player to produce a certain amount of points.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I am not arguing that its a great idea. I am arguing that its not an important factor in the outcome of a career.

Management judged that it was a good idea to expose him now to the NHL, to have him practices with the squad and be surrounded by the NHL coaches. They could live with his mistakes and its an excellent opportunity for him to learn the speed and processing of the game. An opportunity he would not have had with an NHL team who wants to play tight and compete for the playoff. You don't think its a defendable position ?

Depends what you mean by defend. Because we've been having this argument on this board for years and years now, and one side never relents despite a perfect lack of success. People can defend it all they like until the end of time. That's why my question was why do you ''strongly'' doubt. It seems like there's no reason for it. I could understand being unconvinced, or curious but undecided. But like...to be strongly against the idea that bringing a prospect along more slowly might affect things seems to be without reason.

 

[yianik]

After Galchenyuk and KK I just wanted Slaf not in the NHL. Was his being in the NHL a mistake, I don't know.

Galchenyuk was different because he was to be our future 1C, but even though he did not have a 200 foot game, and even though he was not playing C, it was thought yo be a good idea to put him in the NHL with a coach who stated it WAS NOT HIS JOB TO DEVELOP PLAYERS. Hmmm.

And KK, I don't know. His last Habs coach was the idiot DD. KK hasn't blossomed in Carolina but he seems to be putting some parts of his game together.

What I keep seeing are cases of guys taken high
/ highest who don't pan out, but also examples of guys who take time, 4-5-6 years to start to put it together, like Tage Thompson and Dach.

I do believe this is the best environment in Montreal for prospects since Jacques Demers.

 

[NORiculous]

No, they weren't or at least, I think you misinterpreted that quote...he started multiple times that they weren't focusing on production exclusively.

That's a fan/media narrative...which isn't an unfair one mind you, it's totally normal to expect the 1st overall player to produce a certain amount of points.

I saw the press conference. Those were his words.

Edit: just to clarify we are talking about the same thing. He was asked if he thought of sending Slaf down to the AHL.

He said: Yes and then said the quote I gave previously.

 

[Jaynki]

Depends what you mean by defend. Because we've been having this argument on this board for years and years now, and one side never relents despite a perfect lack of success. People can defend it all they like until the end of time. That's why my question was why do you ''strongly'' doubt. It seems like there's no reason for it. I could understand being unconvinced, or curious but undecided. But like...to be strongly against the idea that bringing a prospect along more slowly might affect things seems to be without reason.

By our perfect lack of success, are you referencing to Kotkaniemi and Galchenyuk? Because although they have been mishandled, they have been first and foremost absolute shitty picks, i think Tkachuk would have done well here even with CJ and DD. Juulsen, Scherbak, McCarron, Poehling have been brought up way slower but they have been absolute shitty picks too first and foremost.

I strongly doubt Slafkovsky playing in the NHL at 18 will ruin him. I also strongly doubt that playing in the AHL would have ruined or made him better this season. In fact, i think it will change absolutely nothing in the outcome of his career. I am simply in the camp that there is no better school than the NHL, even if its 4th line minutes, to learn the NHL. For what its worth. If Slafkovsky lost his confidence because he did not go dominate the WJC or the AHL and underperformed in the NHL, he will probably fall in the absolute shitty picks category.

I would like to hear your points. Why do you think he should have been in the AHL? Do you think it might have a long lasting, negative impact on his career to play in the NHL at 18? If yes, id like to know why.

 

[NotProkofievian]

By our perfect lack of success, are you referencing to Kotkaniemi and Galchenyuk? Because although they have been mishandled, they have been first and foremost absolute shitty picks. Juulsen, Scherbak, McCarron, Poehling have been brought up way slower but they have been absolute shitty picks too first and foremost.

I strongly doubt Slafkovsky playing in the NHL at 18 will ruin him. I also strongly doubt that playing in the AHL would have ruined or made him better this season. In fact, i think it will change absolutely nothing in the outcome of his career. I am simply in the camp that there is no better school than the NHL, even if its 4th line minutes, to learn the NHL. For what its worth. If Slafkovsky lost his confidence because he did not go dominate the WJC or the AHL and underperformed in the NHL, he will probably fall in the absolute shitty picks category.

Yes, obviously. We tried it with Galchenyuk, didn't work. We tried it with KK, didn't work. So we tried it yet again with Slafkovsky, and surprise surprise, the first year was actually the worst of the 3.

There's no ''predict, observe, update'' loop that you would expect from a rational actor. We just need to keep trying the same thing over and over again until it finally works, and our conclusion will be that all the other times it was the player's fault. I dunno man, that sounds like a nightmare for the kids coming into our system directly after the draft.

 

[Captain97]

He would haev still play 12-15mins in the AhL vs Nhl 7-10mins. I would also have 0 problem with him playing in OHL.

Mason McTavish played 29 games in the OHl. I pretty much see Slaf having a similar impact in the NHl as McTavish or Kent Johnson from the 2021 draft.

WTF are you talking about Sslaf averaged over 12 minutes a game in the NHL not 7-10. Atleast look shit up before making nonsense claims.

Also putting Slaf in the OHL would be beyond stupid, I would have been fine with him in the AHL but the O? He'd be the biggest player in the league by like 30lbs

 

[Jaynki]

Yes, obviously. We tried it with Galchenyuk, didn't work. We tried it with KK, didn't work. So we tried it yet again with Slafkovsky, and surprise surprise, the first year was actually the worst of the 3.

There's no ''predict, observe, update'' loop that you would expect from a rational actor. We just need to keep trying the same thing over and over again until it finally works, and our conclusion will be that all the other times it was the player's fault. I dunno man, that sounds like a nightmare for the kids coming into our system directly after the draft.

Do you think Galchenyuk would have had a different career if he played one more season in the OHL and one season in the AHL? Personally i believe he would have had a different career if he overcame his character issues, not if he was brought along more slowly. Like i said, i think first and foremost he and kk were failed pick. Also, effectively, putting these guy into the hands of Michel Therrien and Julien/Ducharme at the age of 18 without any supporting cast does not seem like the brightest idea. Still, do you think Brady Tkachuk would have thrived or busted in this environment?

Now, obviously we are trying the same thing with Slafkovsky in appearance. But its inherently very different as there is a way stronger supporting cast behind the teenager. Maybe this management team would have done things differently with Galchenyuk and KK? I am way more convinced by MSL, Hughes, Adam Nicholas than i am by Michel Therrien and Jean Jacques Daigneault or Ducharme. But yes, the jury is still out. We will see.

 

[Destopcorner]

By our perfect lack of success, are you referencing to Kotkaniemi and Galchenyuk? Because although they have been mishandled, they have been first and foremost absolute shitty picks, i think Tkachuk would have done well here even with CJ and DD. Juulsen, Scherbak, McCarron, Poehling have been brought up way slower but they have been absolute shitty picks too first and foremost.

I strongly doubt Slafkovsky playing in the NHL at 18 will ruin him. I also strongly doubt that playing in the AHL would have ruined or made him better this season. In fact, i think it will change absolutely nothing in the outcome of his career. I am simply in the camp that there is no better school than the NHL, even if its 4th line minutes, to learn the NHL. For what its worth. If Slafkovsky lost his confidence because he did not go dominate the WJC or the AHL and underperformed in the NHL, he will probably fall in the absolute shitty picks category.

I would like to hear your points. Why do you think he should have been in the AHL? Do you think it might have a long lasting, negative impact on his career to play in the NHL at 18? If yes, id like to know why.

I've seen so many prospects being brought up too early and derail their career. On the contrary, i've never heard of a guy who was let in the minors for too long it ruined him.

You don't believe a high pick should learn to dominate at lower level to develop his skills? When the game is too fast, he plays 10 minutes with untalented players and no PP time... plus he gets smoke every 2 games. You really think it's a good thing for him? Stop bringing Brady in the conversation, he was million miles ahead and had some balance/physicality contrary to SLaf who can barely take a hit.

 

[Jaynki]

I've seen so many prospects being brought up too early and derail their career. On the contrary, i've never heard of a guy who was let in the minors for too long it ruined him.

You don't believe a high pick should learn to dominate at lower level to develop his skills? When the game is too fast, he plays 10 minutes with untalented players and no PP time... plus he gets smoke every 2 games. You really think it's a good thing for him? Stop bringing Brady in the conversation, he was million miles ahead and had some balance/physicality contrary to SLaf who can barely take a hit.

-I've seen so many prospects being brought up too early and derail their career.

Who ?

-You don't believe a high pick should learn to dominate at lower level to develop his skills?

No, i think he did this all of his f***ing life. He needs to learn adversity, persistance and the consistency of a professional, way more than he needs to learn to dominate a lower league, which he is probably doing since he is 5 years old.

-plus he gets smoke every 2 games. You really think it's a good thing for him?

I think it might be the best teacher for him to learn how to protect himself. But yes, i do recognize the risk of being hit hard often and no i don't think its a good thing.

-Stop bringing Brady in the conversation, he was million miles ahead and had some balance/physicality contrary to SLaf who can barely take a hit.

I don't bring Brady in the conversation in relation to Slafkovsky. I will ask you the same question i asked NotProkofievian. Do you think Brady Tkachuk would have developed himself in a similar way he is now, if he played in our organisation as an 18 years old under CJ and Ducharme? Or do you think he would have busted like Galchenyuk and KK?

 

[LaP]

One side will do anything to continue to argue that development isn't real. The other side just wants us to try something different for once. Not a religious thing at all, just some people are dug in like ticks, and it seems like there's no reason for it.

Different for once? How many kids did we bring at 18 in the last 30 years? You make it sound like it's 90% of prospects. You look at this problem and you only take into consideration the last few years (AG, JK, Slaf). Personally i look at the past 30 years. During the houle era we did not bring kids before they would rot in the AHL for multiple years. I mean i really don't see how anyone could think the problem this team had over the span of the last 30 years is bringing kids at 18.

The only thing that remained constant over the last 30 years is our lack of patience with young players. One mistake and you're gone. At the same time we are overly patient with over the hill vets and reclamation projects from other teams like Nokelainen. How many over the hill vets and reclamation project coming from other teams ended their career here?

Also our inability to accept that a player role should not be defined by his draft rank but by his skills is a major issue. Like Chipchura who never really got a chance to establish himself as a 4th line center because he was a 1sr round pick. We often fill our bottom 6 with scrubs from other teams cause our kids are too PRECIOUS and too "skilled" to play this role. We overrate our prospects like crazy and when they inevitably disapoint we trash them and replace them with useless plugs developed by other teams. I feel like those are far bigger problem than brinning Slaf at 18.

I don't know if Slaf will live up to his draft rank and if i would i would not write here but would be paid good money to work for a NHL team. But as long as he's well supported by the coaching staff and player developement and as long as we are patient and don't expect the moon in the first 2 years i don't think it's a major issue. What could be an issue though if refusing to accept that he might just be a good top 6 winger just because he was drafted 1st overall and he GOT to be the next Ovechkin if not we'll trash him and replace him by the next dunno Thomas Tatar or whatvever.

 

[LaP]

I've seen so many prospects being brought up too early and derail their career. On the contrary, i've never heard of a guy who was let in the minors for too long it ruined him.

You don't believe a high pick should learn to dominate at lower level to develop his skills? When the game is too fast, he plays 10 minutes with untalented players and no PP time... plus he gets smoke every 2 games. You really think it's a good thing for him? Stop bringing Brady in the conversation, he was million miles ahead and had some balance/physicality contrary to SLaf who can barely take a hit.

Of course you don't know. I mean if you would know it would mean they succeded. Nobody possess the knowledge to actually know if a kid who kever played in the NHL could have played in it. We all assume that a kid who never played in the NHL did not have the skill to play in it. Had Tim Thomas stayed in Europe would you know he was ruined? No you would assume he did not have the skills.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Different for once? How many kids did we bring at 18 in the last 30 years? You make it sound like it's 90% of prospects. You look at this problem and you only take into consideration the last few years (AG, JK, Slaf). Personally i look at the past 30 years. During the houle era we did not bring kids before they would rot in the AHL for multiple years. I mean i really don't see how anyone could think the problem this team had over the span of the last 30 years is bringing kids at 18.

The only thing that remained constant over the last 30 years is our lack of patience with young players. One mistake and you're gone. At the same time we are overly patient with over the hill vets and reclamation projects from other teams like Nokelainen. How many over the hill vets and reclamation project coming from other teams ended their career here?

Also our inability to accept that a player role should not be defined by his draft rank but by his skills is a major issue. Like Chipchura who never really got a chance to establish himself as a 4th line center because he was a 1sr round pick. We often fill our bottom 6 with scrubs from other teams cause our kids are too PRECIOUS and too "skilled" to play this role. We overrate our prospects like crazy and when they inevitably disapoint we trash them and replace them with useless plugs developed by other teams. I feel like those are far bigger problem than brinning Slaf at 18.

I don't know if Slaf will live up to his draft rank and if i would i would not write here but would be paid good money to work for a NHL team. But as long as he's well supported by the coaching staff and player developement and as long as we are patient and don't expect the moon in the first 2 years i don't think it's a major issue. What could be an issue though if refusing to accept that he might just be a good top 6 winger just because he was drafted 1st overall and he GOT to be the next Ovechkin if not we'll trash him and replace him by the next dunno Thomas Tatar or whatvever.

Okay, so that's a lot of words. Now just imagine with me for a second, let's take a trip down imagination lane.

We put Slaf in the AHL. We say, you're good kid, but you're not ready yet, show us what you can do in the AHL. He struggles a bit, but he adjusts, and ends up the season producing well and consistently too. By the end of the season he looks too good for the AHL. He comes up in the last few games to show off his skills, having triumphed in the task given to him.

Everyone here would be saying ''yeah, that's f***in awesome, he had a great season, can't wait to see what he does next year.''

But instead we get a wall of text about Rejean Houle. See how much easier it is to just sensibly develop your prospects?

 

[LaP]

Yes, obviously. We tried it with Galchenyuk, didn't work. We tried it with KK, didn't work. So we tried it yet again with Slafkovsky, and surprise surprise, the first year was actually the worst of the 3.

There's no ''predict, observe, update'' loop that you would expect from a rational actor. We just need to keep trying the same thing over and over again until it finally works, and our conclusion will be that all the other times it was the player's fault. I dunno man, that sounds like a nightmare for the kids coming into our system directly after the draft.

AG actually had a very good beginning of career and was on the path to become a very good top 6 player for at least 4 years. His problem was not playing in the NHL at 18. His problem was between both ears and maybe his family but i'm not close enough to him to know that but it looked like his family had a negative impect on him. AG career spireled down when he was 22.

But instead we get a wall of text about Rejean Houle. See how much easier it is to just sensibly develop your prospects?

We also get a bunch of guys calling him a bust after 39 games (lack of patience) but whatever.

 

[Jaynki]

Okay, so that's a lot of words. Now just imagine with me for a second, let's take a trip down imagination lane.

We put Slaf in the AHL. We say, you're good kid, but you're not ready yet, show us what you can do in the AHL. He struggles a bit, but he adjusts, and ends up the season producing well and consistently too. By the end of the season he looks too good for the AHL. He comes up in the last few games to show off his skills, having triumphed in the task given to him.

Everyone here would be saying ''yeah, that's f***in awesome, he had a great season, can't wait to see what he does next year.''

But instead we get a wall of text about Rejean Houle. See how much easier it is to just sensibly develop your prospects?

I think management would say and think the same thing disregard his performance in the AHL or NHL.

It would just comfort us more as fans to have him performed down there.

 

[rahad]

WTF are you talking about Sslaf averaged over 12 minutes a game in the NHL not 7-10. Atleast look shit up before making nonsense claims.

Also putting Slaf in the OHL would be beyond stupid, I would have been fine with him in the AHL but the O? He'd be the biggest player in the league by like 30lbs

He did start around 10 mins at the start of the season. Before he ended up with average 12-13mins (when we started to get more injury players), I did write the post a little bit fast. In 7-10 might be a little short, Should have write 10-13mins.

What is beyond stupid is fanboy thinking Juraj is to good for OHL. Leon Draisalt played in the WHL. Same for McTavish. Yet, Juraj is to good for OHL? Or to many goons will be after him in the AHL lol.

 

[OnTheRun]

Okay, so that's a lot of words. Now just imagine with me for a second, let's take a trip down imagination lane.

We put Slaf in the AHL. We say, you're good kid, but you're not ready yet, show us what you can do in the AHL. He struggles a bit, but he adjusts, and ends up the season producing well and consistently too. By the end of the season he looks too good for the AHL. He comes up in the last few games to show off his skills, having triumphed in the task given to him.

Everyone here would be saying ''yeah, that's f***in awesome, he had a great season, can't wait to see what he does next year.''

But instead we get a wall of text about Rejean Houle. See how much easier it is to just sensibly develop your prospects?

Fans' mind being at ease because a prospect put up points outside the NHL isn't really development tho.
A prospect being allowed to work or fix part of his game that would prevent him to become a solid NHLer in the future is development.

 

[Jaynki]

He did start around 9min at the start of the season. Before he ended up with average 12mins (when we started to get more injury players), I did write the post a little bit fast. In 7-10 might be a little short, Should have write 10-13mins.

What is beyond stupid is fanboy thinking Juraj is to good for OHL. Leon Draisalt played in the WHL. Same for McTavish. Yet, Juraj is to good for OHL? Or to many goons will be after him in the AHL lol.

What is very f***ing stupid is thinking that someone who has a different opinion than you is stupid

 

[junyab]

Guess I'll post this here....again...

The Journey: Nichushkin and The Post-Hype Big Men

Welcome back to The Journey, where we follow hockey prospects and their paths to the NHL, providing fantasy predictions and analysis along the way. The scouting team over at Dobber Prospects just released their final rankings for the 2022 NHL draft. Check it out! They ranked the

dobberhockey.com

But I can summarize as well. Forwards over 6' 3" have historically taken longer to develop and to have their breakout season. According to this article its around the 400 game mark. A perfect comparison is Val Nichushkin.

Sure you can pose that other picks had more of a guarantee and better probability of success, but Montreal was clear for their reasoning to choose Slaf - his potential.

And its way to earlier to call him a bust.

Arguing with impatient whiney internet Karens is a waste of time, and I advise everyone to avoid the task.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Fans' mind being at ease because a prospect put up points outside the NHL isn't really development tho.
A prospect being allowed to work or fix part of his game that would prevent him to become a solid NHLer in the future is development.

This obviously only happens when you're getting shut out for a month straight before being injured for the rest of the season. It's a very necessary part of the development process, succeeding at the lower levels is bad actually.

AG actually had a very good beginning of career and was on the path to become a very good top 6 player for at least 4 years. His problem was not playing in the NHL at 18. His problem was between both ears and maybe his family but i'm not close enough to him to know that but it looked like his family had a negative impect on him. AG career spireled down when he was 22.


We also get a bunch of guys calling him a bust after 39 games (lack of patience) but whatever.

The only person in this thread who is even preparing to call him a bust is @Jaynki . That's what he'll call him if things don't work out (another failed pick), and he's said as much in this thread already.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Guess I'll post this here....again...

The Journey: Nichushkin and The Post-Hype Big Men

Welcome back to The Journey, where we follow hockey prospects and their paths to the NHL, providing fantasy predictions and analysis along the way. The scouting team over at Dobber Prospects just released their final rankings for the 2022 NHL draft. Check it out! They ranked the

dobberhockey.com

But I can summarize as well. Forwards over 6' 3" have historically taken longer to develop and to have their breakout season. According to this article its around the 400 game mark. A perfect comparison is Val Nichushkin.

Sure you can pose that other picks had more of a guarantee and better probability of success, but Montreal was clear for their reasoning to choose Slaf - his potential.

And its way to earlier to call him a bust.

Arguing with impatient whiney internet Karens is a waste of time, and I advise everyone to avoid the task.

Slaf is big, and big guys take longer to develop before they're really ready to be productive NHL players, so let's throw him into the NHL immediately.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Captain97]

He did start around 10 mins at the start of the season. Before he ended up with average 12-13mins (when we started to get more injury players), I did write the post a little bit fast. In 7-10 might be a little short, Should have write 10-13mins.

What is beyond stupid is fanboy thinking Juraj is to good for OHL. Leon Draisalt played in the WHL. Same for McTavish. Yet, Juraj is to good for OHL? Or to many goons will be after him in the AHL lol.

No he averaged over 12 minutes a game for the whole season he played. His average ice time was 12:13 for the year. That would mean if he started at 10 minutes a game at the beginning he would have needed to average more than 13 later. Which show progression.

I'm not saying he is too good I'm saying he is too big and would just outnuscle to OHL. He is as big as Xhekaj who dominated the league with size.