Player Discussion Juraj Slafkovsky, the high offensive potential edition.

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Miller Time

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Oh ya journalists the same that had a couple of years ago KK as a 2 way center who can't even produce with the Canes or Lafreniere being a 55-70points player who can't even produce with probably 1 of the better offense .


Journalists should stop typing and watch the actual product on the ice and it ain't it. Also rushing him is even dumber

wait... you're still blind to JKO's steady progression? or to the reality that Laf (who is 4th, currently, in his draft year as far as NHL production) has also shown strong signs of improvement and that his current production is limited, rather than enhanced, by the quality of team he plays for???

for context... of the 2020 draft class, Laf was 15th in PP ice time and 11th on toi... yet he was T-4th in offensive production and only 3 of the forwards ahead of him were on playoff teams.

Context matters :teach:


and you clearly missed the point. your take is that Slaf's "tools aren't that great". I simply offered you an abundance of other perspectives that suggest he has some significant tools to work with.

Whether he puts them all together or not is a completely different question. There are ample athletes with great tools who don't translate them to professional success.... but that doesn't negate or erase the existence of those tools.

Your "reality" is simply wrong. The athlete CLEARLY has a ton of excellent tools at his disposal... it was bad take. it's ok to have had a bad take and update it once ample evidence suggests that the "reality" you were operating from was just... wrong.
 

BehindTheTimes

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The problem with bringing him up too soon is that it’s hard to reverse course.

It was obvious he was in over his head, but after 20-30 games it’s hard to tell him he’s not good enough and he has to be sent down without deflating him. That’s why it shouldn’t have been done. You’re restricting your options with no reason for doing so.

If you sent him down from the beginning and he tears it up, awesome, call him up or let him complete the year on a high. If you do what we did it makes it very tough to send him down.

They thoughy because he scored goalsbagsinst bums at the olympics and is big that he woukld be near ready.
 

OnTheRun

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The problem with bringing him up too soon is that it’s hard to reverse course.

It was obvious he was in over his head, but after 20-30 games it’s hard to tell him he’s not good enough and he has to be sent down without deflating him. That’s why it shouldn’t have been done. You’re restricting your options with no reason for doing so.

If you sent him down from the beginning and he tears it up, awesome, call him up or let him complete the year on a high. If you do what we did it makes it very tough to send him down.

They thoughy because he scored goalsbagsinst bums at the olympics and is big that he woukld be near ready.

It shouldn't be an issue.

This group already demonstrated that they have more tools than "yelling at them", "ignoring them" and "randomly antagonizing them" when it come to handling prospects.

And if they want to send someone down it would be with a clear mandate of what they expected him achieve down there instead of some vague tropes from Bergevin about what it means to be a pro.

We're fine.
 

HabsWhiteKnightLOL

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If the draft is such a crapshoot why are you so mad about our pick? Since it's just shooting darts on a board and pre scouting reports mean nothing. Maybe if Slaf would be playing in another league that you wouldn't take any time to watch you would consider him a better prospect? lol
Because Slaf was the wors choice of the top 5 and they did not go by BPA We had the choice of 2 centers or 2 dmen , yet we pick the most untalented one who showed barely anything to let alone be drafted in the top 10.

Which also was rushed into the nhl and did bring absolutely nothing except naive people paying ticket to see him , to cash in before the collapse.
 

Miller Time

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It shouldn't be an issue.

This group already demonstrated that they have more tools than "yelling at them", "ignoring them" and "randomly antagonizing them" when it come to handling prospects.

And if they want to send someone down it would be with a clear mandate of what they expected him achieve down there instead of some vague tropes from Bergevin about what it means to be a pro.

We're fine.

Its fascinating that some posters are so traumatized by the MB era that they ignore the ample evidence to the contrary and assume that the current regime is as clueless and inept as his foxhole group.

Obviously not every decision will work out, that's the nature of the business... But, particularly with this asset, the draft & the development approach have reflected consistent & effective decision making that measures up well with the best run pro sport & athlete development programs in the world. A lot of these bad takes show a complete lack of understanding of the elite sport environment.
 

CAUFIELD

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Because Slaf was the wors choice of the top 5 and they did not go by BPA We had the choice of 2 centers or 2 dmen , yet we pick the most untalented one who showed barely anything to let alone be drafted in the top 10.

Which also was rushed into the nhl and did bring absolutely nothing except naive people paying ticket to see him , to cash in before the collapse.
Be patient. Slaf only played 39 games….

He isn’t a bust yet lmao.

Big players like him sometimes need time to learn how to effectively use their big frame.

See valeri nichushkin, but with an higher ceiling.
 
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HabsWhiteKnightLOL

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Be patient. Slaf only played 39 games….

He isn’t a bust yet lmao.

Big players like him sometimes need time to learn how to effectively use their big frame.

See valeri nichushkin, but with an higher ceiling.
You literally quoted what i hate

I get it hes 18
I get it he played a bit
I never said hes a bust
I said they were much better choice at 1st overall than a guy with 0 elite tools.

Also please stop naming Nichu when you give an example , you guys give the 2-3 same names that worked out in the last 600 players who were drafted who flopped.
It's not argument it's just a reach

It's like some people said this season ''Matheson is like Petry '' Like the reach is so far just to win argument by using 2-3 exceptions. It's like we should wait for Primeau to hit 32 perhaps he will turn into a Tim Thomas. Like cmon .
 

Miller Time

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You literally quoted what i hate

I get it hes 18
I get it he played a bit
I never said hes a bust
I said they were much better choice at 1st overall than a guy with 0 elite tools.

Also please stop naming Nichu when you give an example , you guys give the 2-3 same names that worked out in the last 600 players who were drafted who flopped.
It's not argument it's just a reach

It's like some people said this season ''Matheson is like Petry '' Like the reach is so far just to win argument by using 2-3 exceptions. It's like we should wait for Primeau to hit 32 perhaps he will turn into a Tim Thomas. Like cmon .

Look up Roope Hintz
 

CAUFIELD

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You literally quoted what i hate

I get it hes 18
I get it he played a bit
I never said hes a bust
I said they were much better choice at 1st overall than a guy with 0 elite tools.

Also please stop naming Nichu when you give an example , you guys give the 2-3 same names that worked out in the last 600 players who were drafted who flopped.
It's not argument it's just a reach

It's like some people said this season ''Matheson is like Petry '' Like the reach is so far just to win argument by using 2-3 exceptions. It's like we should wait for Primeau to hit 32 perhaps he will turn into a Tim Thomas. Like cmon .
There is a lot of exemples of young players with good seize that struggle at the start , but showed great potential after adjusting.

Mackinnon, Pacioretty, Dach , tage thompson, Fiala , Draisatl. The list goes on.

There’s still hope for slaf
 

OnTheRun

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Its fascinating that some posters are so traumatized by the MB era that they ignore the ample evidence to the contrary and assume that the current regime is as clueless and inept as his foxhole group.

Obviously not every decision will work out, that's the nature of the business... But, particularly with this asset, the draft & the development approach have reflected consistent & effective decision making that measures up well with the best run pro sport & athlete development programs in the world. A lot of these bad takes show a complete lack of understanding of the elite sport environment.

I think it's inevitable in some way, previous regime was such a gong show that people mind will wander back in that dark corner as soon they perceive something remotely similar to the old guard.

But hey, time heals everything, or so they say.
 

NORiculous

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It's PART of the answer he gave and the one part you've chosen to focus on.

I have no narrative other than I don't need to
reach a conclusion now, about how he's been/being developed.

We’re in the preface of his story, not the closing chapter.

I don't think skill was the issue...pace, timing, functional strength however, definitely were.

You could say the same about basically every single player on this roster.

Nick Suzuki’s advanced state were awful, so were Kaiden Guhle’s.

Point being?
I disagree. It was his answer to a direct question. And, I disagree, not all Habs players had all bad advanced stats.

If you only look at CF%, CF/60 and CA/60 then sure. But if you put it into perspective with QoC rel Corsi For %, GF%, GA/60, GF/60 , then… the picture is different. Not all Habs had a bad year.


Suzuki: drove possession against pretty tough opposition. Sure his ratio of GF/60 vs GA/60 could be better. Sure his CF/60 vs CA/60 was below expectations. But the overall picture isn’t that bad. It tells me that as a #2C, he would rip face.

Guhle: very few players in the league face the toughness of opposition he faced. Could he do better? Absolutely. In perfect conditions would he have faced easier toughness of opposition, yes. I think he did ok, all things considered.

When looking at the combination of advanced stats, Slaf had the worse year and Dvorak not too far behind. I don’t count Tierney though.

Dach and Monahan had pretty decent.

Let’s compare Guhle and Slafkovsky.

One played insanely tough opposition. The other played easy toughness of opposition. Both didn’t do that well.

For them to be effective, they need to face toughness of opposition that is down a notch. ( A little easier. )

To me, that means one needs to play 2nd pair toughness of opposition to hold his own. The other needs to play a weaker league because there isn’t a 5th line.

Btw, pace, timing, functional strength are all things he can easily work on in the AHL.
 

NORiculous

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winning came distant 2nd
Hughes said winning too much wasn’t good and losing too much wasn’t good. That was his plan. So winning games was part of his plan.

He wasn't getting tested or anything, he was getting ice time in the NHL to get used to the NHL game.
Once you see a guy in over his head, it’s not helping him if you leave him there. I think they were about to send him down when he got injured. Without the injury, being up for 20es too many games isn’t a big deal. But with the injury, it changes the perspective because the result is almost the equivalent of a lost year of development.

Due to the team modest goal, they had to opportunity to use players that weren't ready to play full time in the NHL and they used that opportunity on more than one players. It shouldn't be that hard to grasp.
It was fine with everyone except Slafkovsky because he was in over his head. We could all see it and it’s confirmed with advanced stats.
 

NORiculous

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I totally agree. Does it also apply to Slafkovsky ?
No. Although Lafrenière did have some trouble in his first year, it was against much tougher opposition then what Slaf has faced.

You can’t compare the two without taking that into consideration.

So…

To help Lafrenière, they just needed to bring the toughness of opposition down a notch.

For Slafkovsky, to bring it down a notch, is to
send him in the AHL.
 

NORiculous

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The problem with bringing him up too soon is that it’s hard to reverse course.
I don’t think it’s that difficult.

How about this:
You bring him in the office, you say that there is one (or a couple) thing you want him to work on and say you think it’s best to work on it and try it out at the AHL level. That he will get recalled in a couple of weeks, etc.

They say Slafkovsky has good character, If true then I’d guess he would have cooperated without any problem.

What do you think?
 

OnTheRun

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Hughes said winning too much wasn’t good and losing too much wasn’t good. That was his plan. So winning games was part of his plan.


Once you see a guy in over his head, it’s not helping him if you leave him there. I think they were about to send him down when he got injured. Without the injury, being up for 20es too many games isn’t a big deal. But with the injury, it changes the perspective because the result is almost the equivalent of a lost year of development.


It was fine with everyone except Slafkovsky because he was in over his head. We could all see it and it’s confirmed with advanced stats.

Well you think Slaf can't learn/progress/improve/etc because he was "in over his head" and management pretty much reject your whole premise.
So the only thing you can do about it is wait and find out if they are right or wrong.
 

NotProkofievian

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People bringing up Nichushkin is hilarious to me.

1.) Draft player
2.) Throw them into the NHL before they're ready
3.) Watch them struggle and then bolt to the KHL
4.) Unconditional waivers for purposes of buyout
5.) ????
6.) Someone else profits!
 

BehindTheTimes

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I don’t think it’s that difficult.

How about this:
You bring him in the office, you say that there is one (or a couple) thing you want him to work on and say you think it’s best to work on it and try it out at the AHL level. That he will get recalled in a couple of weeks, etc.

They say Slafkovsky has good character, If true then I’d guess he would have cooperated without any problem.

What do you think?
I think if you do it early enough it should be that simple, but after 30 games I feel like it gets a bit complicated. I mean if you plan on giving a short trial to see what you have with the understanding that you might send him down, that is one thing.

Slaf made the team without showing anything in camp without showing he deserved it. The plan was to keep him up all along.

With his size, skating and skill combo he would have absolutely destroyed juniors. That really shouldn’t even be up for debate.

It’s entirely possible he ends up a 50 pt middle 6 guy but come on guys that’s not his ceiling lol.
It's definitely up for debate. Just because he;s big doesn't mean he's too good for junior. That's how we got into this mess.
 
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BLONG7

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With his injury issue, is Slaf still in Montreal for the off season, or did he return home, to Europe to rehab and work out for the offseason?? Just curious....
 

NORiculous

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With his injury issue, is Slaf still in Montreal for the off season, or did he return home, to Europe to rehab and work out for the offseason?? Just curious....
I know he went home, at some point, to finish high school. But that’s all I know. Don’t know if he is back, don’t know what’s the plan, don’t know etc.
 
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Naslundforever

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he scored goalsbagsinst bums at the olympics and is big that he woukld be near ready.
Colorful, but it’s not like they chose him over McD or Bedard… He can also make a nasty pass by the way ;)

… That's how we got into this mess.
Only a mess if you make out to be; I think he’s fine and the only bad thing so far is his injuries.
 

JHabs

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There is a lot of exemples of young players with good seize that struggle at the start , but showed great potential after adjusting.

Mackinnon, Pacioretty, Dach , tage thompson, Fiala , Draisatl. The list goes on.

There’s still hope for slaf
I would add Huberdeau to that list.

He only became a PPG player in 2019 (92 pts)

SeasonTeamLeagueGPGAPtsPIM+/-GPGAPtsPIM
2012-13Florida PanthersNHL4814173118-15
2013-14Florida PanthersNHL699192837-5----------
2014-15Florida PanthersNHL791539543810
2015-16Florida PanthersNHL762039594317612310
2016-17Florida PanthersNHL3110162613-2----------
2017-18Florida PanthersNHL8227426932-2----------
2018-19Florida PanthersNHL8230629240-14----------
2019-20Florida PanthersNHL6923557830541232
2020-21Florida PanthersNHL552041613612628104
2021-22Florida PanthersNHL8030851155435101454
2022-23Calgary FlamesNHL79154055362
 
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417

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I disagree. It was his answer to a direct question. And, I disagree, not all Habs players had all bad advanced stats.

It's funny how if all the quotes he provided on the topic, that's the one you not only chose to focus on but you've intentionally taken out of context.
If you only look at CF%, CF/60 and CA/60 then sure. But if you put it into perspective with QoC rel Corsi For %, GF%, GA/60, GF/60 , then… the picture is different. Not all Habs had a bad year.
We must have watched a different bottom 5th placed team.
Suzuki: drove possession against pretty tough opposition. Sure his ratio of GF/60 vs GA/60 could be better. Sure his CF/60 vs CA/60 was below expectations. But the overall picture isn’t that bad. It tells me that as a #2C, he would rip face.
Suzuki was fine, you're missing the point here.

How can you on one hand apply the correct context with Suzuki but not Slaf?
Guhle: very few players in the league face the toughness of opposition he faced. Could he do better? Absolutely. In perfect conditions would he have faced easier toughness of opposition, yes. I think he did ok, all things considered.
Slafkovsky's: no other 18 year old played any meaningful minutes in the NHL or faced the opposition he faced with the linemates he had. Could be be better? Absolutely. In perfect conditions he would have faced this tougher opposition with better linemates and deployment. I think he did ok, all things considered.

But I guess because he's 18 and a 1st overall pick, the expectation is that he should have put up at least 25pts in the 39 games he played at 12:00 mins per game, playing with Christian Dvorak.

Makes sense.
When looking at the combination of advanced stats, Slaf had the worse year and Dvorak not too far behind. I don’t count Tierney though.

Dach and Monahan had pretty decent.

Let’s compare Guhle and Slafkovsky.

One played insanely tough opposition. The other played easy toughness of opposition. Both didn’t do that well.
He's 3 years older lol where was Kaiden Guhle when he was 18 years old?

More importantly, where will Slafkovsky be when he's 21 years old?

Oh I forgot, his career was sabotaged because he played 39 NHL games this year and wasn't in contention for the Calder.
For them to be effective, they need to face toughness of opposition that is down a notch. ( A little easier. )
Says who?

Steel sharpens steel. There's nothing wrong with that approach and just because it's foreign to you, doesn't mean it's destined to fail.

If people’s expectations weren’t completely out of whack, they'd step back and have perspective on his season and realize that there were actually gains made this year and that just because the output or just because he wasn't in contention for the Calder, it doesn't mean his year was wasted.
To me, that means one needs to play 2nd pair toughness of opposition to hold his own. The other needs to play a weaker league because there isn’t a 5th line.
To me it means you're reading too much into small samples.

Guhle and Slafkovaky both gained a ton of experience this year which “should” have them well prepared for when the Habs are a more competitive team down the line.
Btw, pace, timing, functional strength are all things he can easily work on in the AHL.
Also things he can easily work on in the NHL which is really the ultimate level he needs to be at.

AHL pace, timing and functional strength is cute and all but we didn't draft him to play in the AHL
 

NORiculous

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There is a lot of exemples of young players with good seize that struggle at the start , but showed great potential after adjusting.

Mackinnon, Pacioretty, Dach , tage thompson, Fiala , Draisatl. The list goes on.

There’s still hope for slaf
MacKinnon got 50-60+ pts in his first 4 years… how did he struggle?
Pacioretty was send down AHL
Draisaitl sent down AHL
Fiala sent down AHL
Thompson sent down AHL
 

junyab

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The guy is 28 it took him 9 seasons after his draft to break out, you can' t tell me anyhere is wating that long for a first overall pick.
In his case I'd go by NHL games, not years as hes battled with injuries and played in the KHL. The average wait time for forwards over 6'4" to have a breakout season is 400 games. Im giving Slaf that long.
If he takes that much time, he will probably be traded before, like the Thompson or Nichushkin of this world... :help:
And that wouldn't be wise, just like the Dallas' and St Louis'.

Because Slaf was the wors choice of the top 5 and they did not go by BPA We had the choice of 2 centers or 2 dmen , yet we pick the most untalented one who showed barely anything to let alone be drafted in the top 10.

Which also was rushed into the nhl and did bring absolutely nothing except naive people paying ticket to see him , to cash in before the collapse.
Oh boy. Worst post of the week so far.
 
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