Post-Game Talk: JUMP TO THE PUMP: Jets have gas in 5-2 win over Sabres

[Joe Hallenback]

Couldn't believe what a shit effort Buffalo put in at home. UPL held them in before the wheels came off. They lack something and I think it might be a number 1 center for sure, Didn't even notice Thompson playing, looked like a big slug out there most of the night

 

[surixon]

Couldn't believe what a shit effort Buffalo put in at home. UPL held them in before the wheels came off. They lack something and I think it might be a number 1 center for sure, Didn't even notice Thompson playing, looked like a big slug out there most of the night

Cozens has stalled as well.

 

[WolfHouse]

Couldn't believe what a shit effort Buffalo put in at home. UPL held them in before the wheels came off. They lack something and I think it might be a number 1 center for sure, Didn't even notice Thompson playing, looked like a big slug out there most of the night

They were on a back to back as well... wouldn't judge them too harshly

 

[Jets 31]

People should go and read the Buffalo GDT , some of their fans were very complimentary about our Jets. The Jets are legit, the Jets are for real , just a couple of posts by their fans. We have a very good team here boys and girls.

 

[JetsFan815]

 

[NA Hockey]

The second line barely scores 5 on 5. Most of the players on that line's points have come on the pp or against the EN.

It's funny that a few empty net points convince some people that a player is playing well.

Hockey is such a game off opportunity. Usage is one of the most important determining factors in a players success.

 

[JetsFan815]

Great article by Murat today on this wholer Ehlers/Top Line/Bowness debate https://theathletic.com/5312106/202...-ehlers-winnipeg-jets-outlook-trade-deadline/ Well worth the read.

For those with a subscription this was particularly interesting- apparently the Ehlers stuff is starting to get noticed around the league as well:

Bowness persisted in playing Connor, Scheifele and Vilardi together during a stretch of games that saw them make multiple turnovers — and multiple poor backchecks — leading to goals against the Jets. He moved Ehlers off that line for a giveaway that led to … nothing. Those standards are not the same and it’s being noticed around the league. One agent, granted anonymity to talk about players he did not represent, wondered out loud why Ehlers would re-sign in Winnipeg beyond next season after playing down the lineup for so many years. Another suggested Winnipeg might be forced to trade Ehlers this offseason.

You have to wonder if/when Chevy has to come in and put his foot down. Bowness is only contracted for this year and the Jets have an option for next year but if this impacts the Jets future long term then it is on Chevaldayoff to step in.

It's funny because instead of us forever debating ehlers getting more ice time, maybe we should be talking about Scheifele and Connor getting less.

Both of those guys are more effective when they have more gas in the tank.

We actually have the forward group now to distribute ice time more equally.
Ofc game situation will have an impact but playing the lines something like 17 16 15 12 could really benefit the team heading down the stretch and into the playoffs

I think most people have given up on expecting the usage of that top line to be changed to less minutes so most are advocating putting Ehlers on there so they don't curb stomped in the heavy mins the play.

Ofcourse there would be way less consternation of that the line Ehlers was playing on was actually getting 2nd line minutes consistently an if the icetime between them and the top line was closer to what you described esp at 5v5 rather than the top line playing 4-5 mins more.

 

[surixon]

It's funny that a few empty net points convince some people that a player is playing well.

Hockey is such a game off opportunity. Usage is one of the most important determining factors in a players success.

They have 3 5 on 5 goals in the last 6 games. So nothing that great.

 

[DRW204]

Great article by Murat today on this wholer Ehlers/Top Line/Bowness debate How Scheifele, Ehlers and Bowness impact Jets' trade deadline outlook Well worth the read.

For those with a subscription this was particularly interesting- apparently the Ehlers stuff is starting to get noticed around the league as well:



You have to wonder if/when Chevy has to come in and put his foot down. Bowness is only contracted for this year and the Jets have an option for next year but if this impacts the Jets future long term then it is on Chevaldayoff to step in.




I think most people have given up on expecting the usage of that top line to be changed to less minutes so most are advocating putting Ehlers on there so they don't curb stomped in the heavy mins the play.

Ofcourse there would be way less consternation of that the line Ehlers was playing on was actually getting 2nd line minutes consistently an if the icetime between them and the top line was closer to what you described esp at 5v5 rather than the top line playing 4-5 mins more.

i don't think it's 4-5 mins more. ehlers pre KC injury was just shy of 13 mins 5v5, and then post KC injury he was around there too. KC for the year is around 15.5 mins.

also from Murat's article, since a lot of posters like actual goals.

Mark Scheifele's top line

LW	RW	SHOTS FOR	SHOTS AGAINST	GOALS FOR	GOALS AGAINST
Kyle Connor	Nikolaj Ehlers	74​	57​	6​	2​
Kyle Connor	Gabriel Vilardi	67​	87​	9​	9​
Nikolaj Ehlers	Gabriel Vilardi	105​	76​	15​	4​

Using Namestnikov as a 2nd line placeholder through the time KC missed and it was ESV:
11GF 4GA in 16gp, for a 3.3 GF/60.

anyway ehlers stikes me as a team guy. however hard to argue how the team has performed w/ him on the top line. even when the 2nd line was perfetti-namestnikov-iafallo that 2nd line still performed admirably.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

In order to balance a lineup, you'll likely always have players on a line that could play higher up the lineup -
If we forget about balance and let the best players play top line minutes so that they can pad their paycheck, you can throw the whole philosophy of a balanced lines up out the window.

I think this org is very much aware of what Ehlers is worth and will do all they can to sign him to a contract that makes everyone happy -
You can believe what you want but I don't think for a minute, that this org is sandbagging his career - they see his value.

That might not translate to top line minutes - but it might be the best way to use him. Fans, the media, and anyone who has ever held a hockey stick, will chime in with their 2 cents on how to best use this player - that will never go away and Bones couldn't care less. He has a team to coach and is doing a bang up job based on where this team sits right now and including a couple of recent, exceptional come back games.

You don't need to abandon a balanced lineup in order to put Ehlers on the top line, where both he and the linemates are most effective.

You also don't need to put Ehlers on the 2nd line if you want him to play LW.

You do need to abandon the idea that Connor and Scheifele need to be joined at the hip. Unless you are saying that Connor is not good enough for the 2nd line.

Ehlers - Scheifele - Vilardi (when healthy)
Connor - Monahan - Niederreiter (Perfetti)
Barron - Lowry - Namestnikov
Perfetti/Gus - Kupari/Gus - Appleton

 

[Buffdog]

That would be fine - if Ehlers was feasting playing on the 2nd line. But that hasn't been working out.

7 points in his last 8 games is OK, no?

 

[Inanna]

8:45-11:44 - 33 gp - 17GF 14GA 55% GF share
11:45-14:44 - 75 gp - 58GF 37GA 61% GF share
14:45-17:45 - 54gp - 48 GF 23 GA 68% GF share

I'm always impressed when the girlfriend gets more than a sixty percent share.

 

[Buffdog]

Great article by Murat today on this wholer Ehlers/Top Line/Bowness debate How Scheifele, Ehlers and Bowness impact Jets' trade deadline outlook Well worth the read.

For those with a subscription this was particularly interesting- apparently the Ehlers stuff is starting to get noticed around the league as well:



You have to wonder if/when Chevy has to come in and put his foot down. Bowness is only contracted for this year and the Jets have an option for next year but if this impacts the Jets future long term then it is on Chevaldayoff to step in.




I think most people have given up on expecting the usage of that top line to be changed to less minutes so most are advocating putting Ehlers on there so they don't curb stomped in the heavy mins the play.

Ofcourse there would be way less consternation of that the line Ehlers was playing on was actually getting 2nd line minutes consistently an if the icetime between them and the top line was closer to what you described esp at 5v5 rather than the top line playing 4-5 mins more.

What did Bones say when asked by Murat about Ehlers usage?

I'm always impressed when the girlfriend gets more than a sixty percent share.

I prefer to not share my girlfriend...

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm just trying to understand the org's position on him, because it was also PoMo before Bones

It seems intuitive to play him up there, but it doesn't happen commonly... to me, that means one of two things:

1. The org knows something we don't know
Or
2. We know something the org doesn't know

#1 seems way more likely. They spend all day, every day around these guys, see every shift, every practice, every medical report, every trip to the trainer's room, etc... plus they have every publicly available stat that we have AND whatever proprietary shit they pay for but we don't see

It just seems like the more logical conclusion

I think that what it means is that a lot of coaches don't like unpredictable players. They will all say that they like creativity but when push comes to shove most will opt for safe and predictable. I'm not saying coaches are dumb. I'm saying they are human and react to the pressures they are under and that they have biases.

 

[surixon]

I think that what it means is that a lot of coaches don't like unpredictable players. They will all say that they like creativity but when push comes to shove most will opt for safe and predictable. I'm not saying coaches are dumb. I'm saying they are human and react to the pressures they are under and that they have biases.

It's not just coaches, Scheifele also likes the predictability of KC.

Another reason we may not keep Ehlers or that he won't want to stay is a philosophical difference between how the team and the other top offensive players like to play and how he likes to play.

 

[DRW204]

I'm always impressed when the girlfriend gets more than a sixty percent share.

when you have multiple forms of GFs, ~60% predominantly on one is definitely noteworthy.

 

[Flyby]

A slow, small 5’8” guys isn’t who you build around….as another poster said, I don’t get him!

That was exactly what people always said about Pavelski. Too small. Too slow. Just cause he doesn’t fit into your ideal mould doesn’t mean he won’t become a difference maker. A brilliant hockey mind came make up for a lot of physical deficiencies!

 

[Jack7222]

Great article by Murat today on this wholer Ehlers/Top Line/Bowness debate How Scheifele, Ehlers and Bowness impact Jets' trade deadline outlook Well worth the read.

For those with a subscription this was particularly interesting- apparently the Ehlers stuff is starting to get noticed around the league as well:



You have to wonder if/when Chevy has to come in and put his foot down. Bowness is only contracted for this year and the Jets have an option for next year but if this impacts the Jets future long term then it is on Chevaldayoff to step in.




I think most people have given up on expecting the usage of that top line to be changed to less minutes so most are advocating putting Ehlers on there so they don't curb stomped in the heavy mins the play.

Ofcourse there would be way less consternation of that the line Ehlers was playing on was actually getting 2nd line minutes consistently an if the icetime between them and the top line was closer to what you described esp at 5v5 rather than the top line playing 4-5 mins more.

This article is really excellent and sums up this issue well. This kind of drives it home imo:

If Winnipeg’s insistence on Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi is due to any amount of hesitance on Scheifele’s part, I believe it’s the coach’s job to step in. Comfort is not the same thing as growth. Frustration while dramatically outscoring opponents — consistently, sustainably, for years — is a better recipe for Jets success than comfortable repetition of the same ideas. Scheifele (and Connor) score more when they’re not the only ones opening up space for each other and no one does that better than Ehlers does.

If Winnipeg’s insistence on Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi is about Winnipeg’s hope that they’ll click so well they outscore their defensive problems, then Bowness needs to know his limits for the experiment. That line gets outshot terribly and hemmed in its own zone. An average team could get away with its top line sawing off the other team’s best players to the tune of a 9-9 scoreline. Winnipeg’s purpose this season is to be so much better than average — the Jets are trying to push for the Stanley Cup.

There is also the matter of Winnipeg’s long-term future. The Jets have a stable foundation, in part, because Scheifele has signed a seven-year extension. He loves playing with Connor, who is under contract for two seasons after this one. Vilardi is meant to be a part of the long-term strength, too.

Ehlers is scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of next season. If Ehlers is underutilized in Winnipeg, why would he re-sign?

 

[surixon]

That was exactly what people always said about Pavelski. Too small. Too slow. Just cause he doesn’t fit into your ideal mould doesn’t mean he won’t become a difference maker. A brilliant hockey mind came make up for a lot of physical deficiencies!

Kucherov as well. Not saying he'll be a Kucherov but smaller players can and do make a difference.

He's already a 40 point player with middling usage. In another couple of years when he's stronger and quicker with better usage he'll likely be a 65 to 80 point player with good play driving and above average defense.

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

Bowness did said last week ... with the heavy schedule this month he wants to cut down the times and distribute them more evenly with the 4th line getting more minutes and you need that for the playoffs but sometimes when there's too many penalties it screws everything up and he can't.
You notice in the playoffs the refs call less penalties and the 3rd and 4th lines play more and that's usually the difference in the wins and losses the depth players ... just ask the Oilers and Leafs.

Bang on with your last paragraph.

 

[hn777]

This article is really excellent and sums up this issue well. This kind of drives it home imo:

If Winnipeg’s insistence on Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi is due to any amount of hesitance on Scheifele’s part, I believe it’s the coach’s job to step in. Comfort is not the same thing as growth. Frustration while dramatically outscoring opponents — consistently, sustainably, for years — is a better recipe for Jets success than comfortable repetition of the same ideas. Scheifele (and Connor) score more when they’re not the only ones opening up space for each other and no one does that better than Ehlers does.

If Winnipeg’s insistence on Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi is about Winnipeg’s hope that they’ll click so well they outscore their defensive problems, then Bowness needs to know his limits for the experiment. That line gets outshot terribly and hemmed in its own zone. An average team could get away with its top line sawing off the other team’s best players to the tune of a 9-9 scoreline. Winnipeg’s purpose this season is to be so much better than average — the Jets are trying to push for the Stanley Cup.

There is also the matter of Winnipeg’s long-term future. The Jets have a stable foundation, in part, because Scheifele has signed a seven-year extension. He loves playing with Connor, who is under contract for two seasons after this one. Vilardi is meant to be a part of the long-term strength, too.

Ehlers is scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent at the end of next season. If Ehlers is underutilized in Winnipeg, why would he re-sign?

This. We are not optimizing our possibilities in the playoffs, if we let Scheifele decide who he plays with. Scheifele needs Ehlers as much as anyone. Ehlers takes Scheifele from negative Goal Differential to heavily positive GD. Over the last three seasons, Scheif is - 11 w/o Ehlers and +24 with Ehlers at 5v5 (Naturalstattrick).

 

[raideralex99]

That was exactly what people always said about Pavelski. Too small. Too slow. Just cause he doesn’t fit into your ideal mould doesn’t mean he won’t become a difference maker. A brilliant hockey mind came make up for a lot of physical deficiencies!

You do know Pavelski is 6'1" and 195 right?
Small guys half to be quick or tough to be good in the NHL. If you are slow and small you are going to take a beating in board battles or coming over the blueline that's a fact.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

He's better then Buff and that is saying something. He will be in the Norris conversation for a second straight year and at $6 million aav to boot. Can't get more value then that.

Better than Buff? In some ways, yes. But he can't intimidate an opponent like Buff could. Buff was a unique force in the NHL.

But Josh in the Norris conversation, absolutely.

 

[Weezeric]

You don't need to abandon a balanced lineup in order to put Ehlers on the top line, where both he and the linemates are most effective.

You also don't need to put Ehlers on the 2nd line if you want him to play LW.

You do need to abandon the idea that Connor and Scheifele need to be joined at the hip. Unless you are saying that Connor is not good enough for the 2nd line.

Ehlers - Scheifele - Vilardi (when healthy)
Connor - Monahan - Niederreiter (Perfetti)
Barron - Lowry - Namestnikov
Perfetti/Gus - Kupari/Gus - Appleton

So all you have to do is change every line? I guess they are only second in the league. You could always get better….

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

This is just depressing. It's like the coach is watching a different game from the rest of us.





Weren't you on Maurice's case all year in 17-18 when we were dominating? Maybe that shows that the coach can be leaving something on the table with the roster he's been handed.

Maurice - that name rings a bell. I think that is the professional quitter who quit our team on a game day in the middle of the season. Seriously, who does that? May have happened in the NHL before but not the I can remember. That guy? If I did criticize him, I was obviously right.

Not that I can recall ever saying that an NHL coach makes decisions for no reason at all. If I did, I must have been 2/3 of the way through a bottle of Hendricks.

Frankly, I find Bones to be very transparent about why he does certain things, roster moves, utilization, etc. Look at how open he is discussing the 'why' in these situations. Including talking about how difficult the decisions are sometimes and how it can be a challenge for players to have to deal with these decisions. But that is part of being a professional hockey player.

Anyway, on to the next game. Thank goodness we finally have a coach that knows what he is doing and why.