JT Miller vs Ryan Kesler

Ryan Kesler vs JT Miller

  • Ryan Kesler

    Votes: 79 67.5%
  • JT Miller

    Votes: 38 32.5%

  • Total voters
    117

Ruthervin

Registered User
Jul 30, 2022
1,228
870
Seattle
The notion that people dislike Miller because he's a Benning acquisition is absolutely mad considering most of the posters here are absolutely massive Pettersson and Hughes fans and defend them in every debate/thread.

Suggesting it's a biased to suggest a 40 goal Selke winner who finished similarly league wide in points to Miller is unquestionably the better player is absurd. Kesler at his pinnacle was a Bergeron/Toews/Kopitar level player and anyone would easily take any of those 3 guys over Miller in a heartbeat.

Lets remove the bias here, in 2011 Jonathan Toews finished with 76 points and this season Mitch Marner finished with 97 points. Who would you rather add to your team 2011 Toews or 2022 Mitch Marner. For me and pretty much every GM in the league it would be Toews by a mile.
I'll say one thing about Toews/Marner - I'm not sure if the comparison would be similar to Kesler/Miller since Marner hasn't played center at the NHL level (from what I know?) while Toews, unlike Kesler, was pretty good at utilizing his wingers during his peak. Marner, unlike Miller, is also excellent defensively. Obviously, if Marner can't play Center, then Toews would get a huge nod since elite centres are typically worth far more than elite wingers.

Fair enough points with respect to Pettersson, but there are a few that see him as an "anti-hero" on here since the general consensus is that Benning wanted Glass, was overruled, to which Pettersson was then drafted and proved Benning wrong. I think the Kesler/Miller debate is an excellent one and I'm glad that you started this thread. I just think that the comparison should be a lot closer than the results would indicate. I'm guessing that you felt the same way? Otherwise why create such a thread when the result is so obvious?

For me, asking "who was better at his peak?" is almost inherently flawed because it's almost irrelevant (since both players, imo, are extremely close in overall value). If you want a versatile top line forward that can play all three positions, and is great on special teams, then Miller is your guy (assuming that your team already has an O'Reilly, Bergeron, Toews, Barkov, or Kopitar type guy). If you want that two-way shut down beast that is elite defensively and can still contribute major offence while also being terrific on special teams, then Kesler would be your guy (i.e. a team like the Avs, in this hypothetical, and with lots of cap space, trying to find a suitable replacement for Kadri).

I like this debate and think it's great in concept, but Kesler shouldn't be blowing out Miller to this degree imo. Yes, Miller leaves a lot to be desired defensively, but Kesler also left a lot to be desired in terms of utilizing his teammates.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

Registered User
Oct 1, 2017
26,394
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The notion that people dislike Miller because he's a Benning acquisition is absolutely mad considering most of the posters here are absolutely massive Pettersson and Hughes fans and defend them in every debate/thread.

Suggesting it's a biased to suggest a 40 goal Selke winner who finished similarly league wide in points to Miller is unquestionably the better player is absurd. Kesler at his pinnacle was a Bergeron/Toews/Kopitar level player and anyone would easily take any of those 3 guys over Miller in a heartbeat.

Lets remove the bias here, in 2011 Jonathan Toews finished with 76 points and this season Mitch Marner finished with 97 points. Who would you rather add to your team 2011 Toews or 2022 Mitch Marner. For me and pretty much every GM in the league it would be Toews by a mile.
I know the OP's choices were in their peak..but have we even seen Millers peak yet.?..Keslers peak was two/maybe 3 years...Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron proved they could perform at peak levels throughout their careers...Kesler wasnt even in the conversation after 2011.

Lets remove the bias here...one player was a 2/3 year a flash in the pan, the other may not be..?
 

MatthewMurdock

Registered User
Jul 25, 2022
130
230
Personally, I'm surprised that so many people are choosing Kesler over Miller. I think Miller was probably as good as a prime-Sedin last year, and Kesler, while great was never quite Sedin-level great, IMO.

Prime Sedin, this is one of the most absurd things I've seen on here. Lets take Henrik Sedins 2010 season and compare it to JT Miller's.

Henrik Sedin 2010:
112 points (first in the NHL)
82 points Even Strength (first in the NHL by a large margin. Henrik Sedin actually had the most even strength points scored in a season since Jaromit Jagr in his prime)
Even Strength points/60: Second in the NHL behind Daniel Sedin
Era Adjusted points: 122 which is the 7th best season from 2008/2022

JT Miller

99 points (9th in NHL scoring)
59 even strength points (21st in the NHL)
39th in points/60
92nd best season from 2008/2022 in terms of era adjustment

This is not even close
 
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MatthewMurdock

Registered User
Jul 25, 2022
130
230
I'll say one thing about Toews/Marner - I'm not sure if the comparison would be similar to Kesler/Miller since Marner hasn't played center at the NHL level (from what I know?) while Toews, unlike Kesler, was pretty good at utilizing his wingers during his peak. Marner, unlike Miller, is also excellent defensively. Obviously, if Marner can't play Center, then Toews would get a huge nod since elite centres are typically worth far more than elite wingers.

Fair enough points with respect to Pettersson, but there are a few that see him as an "anti-hero" on here since the general consensus is that Benning wanted Glass, was overruled, to which Pettersson was then drafted and proved Benning wrong. I think the Kesler/Miller debate is an excellent one and I'm glad that you started this thread. I just think that the comparison should be a lot closer than the results would indicate. I'm guessing that you felt the same way? Otherwise why create such a thread when the result is so obvious?

For me, asking "who was better at his peak?" is almost inherently flawed because it's almost irrelevant (since both players, imo, are extremely close in overall value). If you want a versatile top line forward that can play all three positions, and is great on special teams, then Miller is your guy (assuming that your team already has an O'Reilly, Bergeron, Toews, Barkov, or Kopitar type guy). If you want that two-way shut down beast that is elite defensively and can still contribute major offence while also being terrific on special teams, then Kesler would be your guy (i.e. a team like the Avs, in this hypothetical, and with lots of cap space, trying to find a suitable replacement for Kadri).

I like this debate and think it's great in concept, but Kesler shouldn't be blowing out Miller to this degree imo. Yes, Miller leaves a lot to be desired defensively, but Kesler also left a lot to be desired in terms of utilizing his teammates.
Your first post in this thread was "Kesler hands down" then tried to turn it into something about Jim Benning. If you think JT Miller was excellent defensively this season I really question your ability to analyze hockey players. Marner is a far better defensive player than Miller. The advanced stats showcase just how vast the discrepancy is, people hate the JFresh charts so I'll refrain from posting them but lets just go with the "old boys club" Marner has finished ahead of Miller in Selke voting in 4 of the past 5 seasons.

I know the OP's choices were in their peak..but have we even seen Millers peak yet.?..Keslers peak was two/maybe 3 years...Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron proved they could perform at peak levels throughout their careers...Kesler wasnt even in the conversation after 2011.

Lets remove the bias here...one player was a 2/3 year a flash in the pan, the other may not be..?
You're arguing about things that have zero to do with the thread. Why even respond to my post with this? It had nothing to do with what posed in the OP nor does it have anything to do with what I posted.

You're just moving the goal posts and arguing with yourself.
 

Ruthervin

Registered User
Jul 30, 2022
1,228
870
Seattle
Your first post in this thread was "Kesler hands down" then tried to turn it into something about Jim Benning. If you think JT Miller was excellent defensively this season I really question your ability to analyze hockey players. Marner is a far better defensive player than Miller. The advanced stats showcase just how vast the discrepancy is, people hate the JFresh charts so I'll refrain from posting them but lets just go with the "old boys club" Marner has finished ahead of Miller in Selke voting in 4 of the past 5 seasons.
Will admit that my first post was 'Kesler hands down' until I started to dig deeper. Will completely admit that my first post was purely reactional as seeing '2011 Kesler' was extremely nostalgic for me. I never once said JT Miller was excellent defensively. ??? Not sure where you got that from.

Miller
  1. The more offensively talented forward
  2. The more versatile up front. Can play all three forward positions
  3. Better at utilizing his teammates
  4. Great on special teams
  5. Great on Face-offs
  6. Very strong leadership abilities
Kesler
  1. Far and away the better defensive forward
  2. Great on special teams
  3. Great on Face-offs
  4. Smaller gap between him and Miller offensively than the discrepancy between him and Miller defensively
  5. Absolute playoff beast during his peak
  6. Good leadership abilities (unless the Schneider's wife thing is true)
So for me, this debate and polling really should be a lot closer than the results we've seen so far. Just my opinion.
 

MatthewMurdock

Registered User
Jul 25, 2022
130
230
Will admit that my first post was 'Kesler hands down' until I started to dig deeper. Will completely admit that my first post was purely reactional as seeing '2011 Kesler' was extremely nostalgic for me. I never once said JT Miller was excellent defensively. ??? Not sure where you got that from.

Miller
  1. The more offensively talented forward
  2. The more versatile up front. Can play all three forward positions
  3. Better at utilizing his teammates
  4. Great on special teams
  5. Great on Face-offs
  6. Very strong leadership abilities
Kesler
  1. Far and away the better defensive forward
  2. Great on special teams
  3. Great on Face-offs
  4. Smaller gap between him and Miller offensively than the discrepancy between him and Miller defensively
  5. Absolute playoff beast during his peak
  6. Good leadership abilities (unless the Schneider's wife thing is true)
So for me, this debate and polling really should be a lot closer than the results we've seen so far. Just my opinion.
The poll results really aren't much to understand. Think about it this way if you asked someone what's a higher number 67 or 67.5 even though they're extremely close, one is higher than the other. Just like you said it's Kesler but it's close, a ton of people most likely feel the same way thus Kesler has a lot more votes but it's closer than a poll would indicate.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
26,394
16,371
You're arguing about things that have zero to do with the thread. Why even respond to my post with this? It had nothing to do with what posed in the OP nor does it have anything to do with what I posted.

You're just moving the goal posts and arguing with yourself.
Suit yourself..Kesler was great for 2 years...Sorry if career consistency ruins your argument....

I'll agree that Kesler was the better player (for a couple of seasons)...but I'd take Miller on my team before Kesler.
 
Last edited:

CanucksSayEh

Registered User
Apr 6, 2012
5,958
2,304
6 of the top 10 scorers have a teammate, also in the top 10..

The outliers being
Kaprizov, who has Fiala @ #22
Jhub, who has Barkov @ #17
Stamkos, who has Hedman @ #23
Miller, who has...... wait.... hol up lemme flip the page.. EP and Hughes @ #55 & #58 (Huggy was awesome tho)

JT has the lowest of the top 10 in ES points, but nearly identical to everyone in the next 10 spots. Among all those teams represented by top 20 scorers, Canucks scored the least goals, and had a below average PP. He's also one of 3 in that group, with Conner and Kane, whom didn't make the playoffs... so no, it is not easy to rack up points on a bubble team.

Kes and JT's production is about as similar as JT's and McDavids.

Even the "JT Miller APPRECIATION thread" has turned into a clown show.
 

MatthewMurdock

Registered User
Jul 25, 2022
130
230
Suit yourself..Kesler was great for 2 years...Sorry if career consistency ruins your argument....

I'll agree that Kesler was the better player (for a couple of seasons)...but I'd take Miller on my team before Kesler.
The poll question asks who is better at their peak, you said Kesler. I'm really not seeing anything "ruining my argument" you have already sided with me but somehow keep adding this totally irrelevant thing that I'm not even arguing as some sort of "got you".

If you want to create your own thread in regards to careers go ahead, if not don't derail mine with random goal posts moving.

Cheers, top G Murdock is off for the night have a T-bone steak waiting for me.
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
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The poll question asks who is better at their peak, you said Kesler. I'm really not seeing anything "ruining my argument" you have already sided with me but somehow keep adding this totally irrelevant thing that I'm not even arguing as some sort of "got you".

If you want to create your own thread in regards to careers go ahead, if not don't derail mine with random goal posts moving.

Cheers, top G Murdock is off for the night have a T-bone steak waiting for me.
I've already conceded that Kesler was great for 2 years...We haven't even seen Millers peak yet...there's no goal post moving here ..Kesler is retired,Miller is still writing his story..

No need to get bent out of shape.
 

Shareefruck

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
29,232
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Vancouver, BC
Prime Sedin, this is one of the most absurd things I've seen on here. Lets take Henrik Sedins 2010 season and compare it to JT Miller's.

Henrik Sedin 2010:
112 points (first in the NHL)
82 points Even Strength (first in the NHL by a large margin. Henrik Sedin actually had the most even strength points scored in a season since Jaromit Jagr in his prime)
Even Strength points/60: Second in the NHL behind Daniel Sedin
Era Adjusted points: 122 which is the 7th best season from 2008/2022

JT Miller

99 points (9th in NHL scoring)
59 even strength points (21st in the NHL)
39th in points/60
92nd best season from 2008/2022 in terms of era adjustment

This is not even close
He did that by in large with mediocre linemates/very little support, while Henrik had the best line in the league, including a linemate exactly as good as him, though.
 

CanucksSayEh

Registered User
Apr 6, 2012
5,958
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The poll question asks who is better at their peak, you said Kesler. I'm really not seeing anything "ruining my argument" you have already sided with me but somehow keep adding this totally irrelevant thing that I'm not even arguing as some sort of "got you".

If you want to create your own thread in regards to careers go ahead, if not don't derail mine with random goal posts moving.

Cheers, top G Murdock is off for the night have a T-bone steak waiting for me.
You see, there's no such thing as "Peak" grade, only Prime. When selecting a cut, most will choose a T-bone, as it is renowned for it's 2 way versatility, fillet and strip.

However, a porterhouse is superior. The porterhouse may be less tender on the fillet side, but it gives you more options for flavor, as it's really 3 different cuts in one. Fillet, strip and sirloin. They are rarer, only yielding a few supermarket sized steaks per side of beef. A T-bone is easier to find, and declines quickly as the tenderloin narrows.

If I already had some A5 wagyu in the fridge, I might opt for the T-bone, but If im starting a dish from scratch, it's porterhouse all the way.
 
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Love

Registered User
Feb 29, 2012
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2011 Playoffs, Second round.
2011 Playoffs, every other round.

8 points in the other 19 games of those playoffs. He had 1 damn goal in the playoffs that wasn’t against the Predators… 1 goal in 19 games! In the finals, Kesler had 0 goals and 1 assist in 7 games and was a -6. To put it another way, if Kesler didn’t choke we’d probably have a Stanley Cup right now. He was apparently our second 1C on that team right?

What a playoff warrior!!!
 

rypper

21-12-05 it's finally over.
Dec 22, 2006
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Lol Miller isn't going to hit anywhere near 99 points again in his career. This absolutely was his peak.
 
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Killer Orcas

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Jul 2, 2011
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Kesler at his peak without a doubt was better. Love Miller on offensive side but defensively he's not even in the same stratosphere as Kesler. Offensively let's be clear Kesler never had the linemates Miller has enjoyed playing with. Besides the PP with the Sedins Kesler was a one man show. Even with that Kesler put up 40 goals. Kesler every day of the week for me !
 

Killer Orcas

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
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2011 Playoffs, every other round.

8 points in the other 19 games of those playoffs. He had 1 damn goal in the playoffs that wasn’t against the Predators… 1 goal in 19 games! In the finals, Kesler had 0 goals and 1 assist in 7 games and was a -6. To put it another way, if Kesler didn’t choke we’d probably have a Stanley Cup right now. He was apparently our second 1C on that team right?

What a playoff warrior!!!
You do realize he had a leg injury in the Preds series and in game 5 vs Sharks suffered a groin tear and hip injury. He didn't miss game if that's not a warrior sorry don't know what is. I mean nobody is 100 during the playoffs but leg injury and groin tear and hip come on.
 

Love

Registered User
Feb 29, 2012
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You do realize he had a leg injury in the Preds series and in game 5 vs Sharks suffered a groin tear and hip injury. He didn't miss game if that's not a warrior sorry don't know what is. I mean nobody is 100 during the playoffs but leg injury and groin tear and hip come on.
He was bad against Chicago in the first round too. 0 goals and 4 assists in 7 games.

It sounds harsh but you can’t give Kesler credit based on what ifs. His health is as much his own fault as it is dumb luck. Part of the reason he was injured and why his career fell off a cliff with the Ducks is because of how he played. His body couldn’t handle it, probably nobodies body could. We can’t pretend that’s not the reality when we look back and try to evaluate him objectively.

If Kesler hadn’t had that series against the Predators which is now seen as a folktale around here, we would look at his playoff resume as very suspect. It was 6 games. Yes they were great, but a 6 game resume can only get you so far in a conversation like this.
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
Oct 1, 2015
22,773
14,682
Hiding under WTG's bed...
Ron Sedlbauer vs Brock Boeser.

Sedlbauer STILL holds the record for scoring 40+ goals in a NHL season (....heh, along with the fewest assists). Rick Nash only has been able to tie it decades later.

:sarcasm:
 

racerjoe

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
12,404
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Vancouver
He was bad against Chicago in the first round too. 0 goals and 4 assists in 7 games.

It sounds harsh but you can’t give Kesler credit based on what ifs. His health is as much his own fault as it is dumb luck. Part of the reason he was injured and why his career fell off a cliff with the Ducks is because of how he played. His body couldn’t handle it, probably nobodies body could. We can’t pretend that’s not the reality when we look back and try to evaluate him objectively.

If Kesler hadn’t had that series against the Predators which is now seen as a folktale around here, we would look at his playoff resume as very suspect. It was 6 games. Yes they were great, but a 6 game resume can only get you so far in a conversation like this.

You mean when Kesler held Toews to 4 pts and a minus 4 for the series?

Sounds harsh but maybe look at the role he was playing in the playoffs.
 
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strattonius

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Jul 4, 2011
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The poll question asks who is better at their peak, you said Kesler. I'm really not seeing anything "ruining my argument" you have already sided with me but somehow keep adding this totally irrelevant thing that I'm not even arguing as some sort of "got you".

If you want to create your own thread in regards to careers go ahead, if not don't derail mine with random goal posts moving.

Cheers, top G Murdock is off for the night have a T-bone steak waiting for me.

The word 'peak' can be ambiguous and/or subjective.

You're basically saying the length of a player's peak doesn't matter and we are only comparing their best season. If that's what you wanted you should have phrased it better.

Stop throwing the longevity of Miller's peak out the window. It's a valid argument.
 

Love

Registered User
Feb 29, 2012
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You mean when Kesler held Toews to 4 pts and a minus 4 for the series?

Sounds harsh but maybe look at the role he was playing in the playoffs.
Did Kesler hold Toews to 4 points or did Toews hold Kesler to 4 points?

1660146501743.gif
 

Killer Orcas

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
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Abbotsford BC
He was bad against Chicago in the first round too. 0 goals and 4 assists in 7 games.

It sounds harsh but you can’t give Kesler credit based on what ifs. His health is as much his own fault as it is dumb luck. Part of the reason he was injured and why his career fell off a cliff with the Ducks is because of how he played. His body couldn’t handle it, probably nobodies body could. We can’t pretend that’s not the reality when we look back and try to evaluate him objectively.

If Kesler hadn’t had that series against the Predators which is now seen as a folktale around here, we would look at his playoff resume as very suspect. It was 6 games. Yes they were great, but a 6 game resume can only get you so far in a conversation like this.
I don't agree he was bad against Hawks simply because of the stats. It's been a long time and I don't remember things that well to really describe his play in that series but I don't remember him being bad. That Hawks team was also one of the best of the era simply stacked.

As for his body not handling it well he certainly wasn't made of glass but I'll take a guy that gives it 100 percent every shift over a guy that picks his spots to save his body. Dumb luck can happen to anyone injuries are part of the game especially for someone who lays it out every shift.

The Preds series might be his highlight but it's certainly not his only claim to fame. He was a Selke winner who scored 41 I believe one year playing with not the most talented wingers. He did have the Sedins on the PP1 though. I think your under selling him somewhat and maybe I'm over selling him but he was a star regardless. Him as your 2C which he was is a great thing to have.

As per this conversation I'm still taking Kesler over Miller and Miller is a fabulous player but he is not a 1C. Neither was Kesler but if they are my 2C's I'm taking Kesler easily as my shut down 2 way 2C over Miller.
 

4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
9,987
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I can’t believe how many folks value secondary points on a mediocre team with nothing on the line. Miller put up his numbers with ZERO on the line.

And lol at Kesler being “bad” against Chicago.

Folks probably forget Kesler tied the elimination game with the Sharks before Bieksa’s stanchion goal with under a minute left (also blew his groin apart in those last few minutes).


5 on 5 those playoffs Kesler was 12GF 9GA (as the matchup C). Sedin was 14GF 20GA. Just sayin’.
 

Siludin

Registered User
Dec 9, 2010
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Comparing Kesler & Miller is sorta like comparing Getzlaf & Toews imo.
I know it's not a perfect comparable but it's very close in terms of who you want overall.
 
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