JT Miller vs Ryan Kesler

[CanucksSayEh]

JT gets grief because he's a Benning acquisition. Flat out there are posters here admitting it. Downplaying his tenure here won't make a potential trade any more palatable.

Both are top 10 all time nucks forwards, id give the edge to Miller. For every argument of Keslers shutdown ability, you have to remember that JT is the type of player he'd be tasked with playing against. Can't give brownie points one way and not the other. It's especially a target for other teams when the rest of forwards are just watching for months on end. JT was able to put up one of the franchises best scoring seasons, with the least amount of help. No way in hell Kesler could pull that off.

Kes was great, and gets a bad rap after the trade.. but many will only remember the best parts of our best seasons. He had his issues, we all know them. His diving, tunnel vision, off ice smoke.. he played a style that left him at peak for 1 deep run. Just was never the same after. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Beast mode wasn't completely on the level.. NHL isn't known for enforcing certain things like other leagues.

 

[Shareefruck]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Putting up points on a team going nowhere (where the opposing team will often start their backup goalie) is significantly different when you're expected to win (and the opposing team plan specific strategies to try and stop you). In their last gasp in the NHL (Willie's first season), both Sedins were in the top 15 in points in the NHL which played a major role in the team hitting 100+ points. And that was an aging team (far cry from the earlier years).

Again, Vigneault would bench Miller's ass on those lazy defensive attempts.

I'd be interested in what the actual numbers are for frequency of facing backup goalies depending on the caliber of your team, or if star players tend to perform better when their team sucks. I'm not aware of those being real correlations. I'd have to imagine that playing with better players makes a significantly greater impact on totals than that does.

I do recall that, at the very peak of his career, in the year where he had 112 points, when Daniel got injured, and everyone was questioning how well Henrik would do without him, Henrik only hovered around PPG playing with similar linemates to Miller, and everyone was very impressed by that output. Only when Daniel rejoined him did he become a 100 point player.

 

[Hit the post]

I'd be interested in what the actual numbers are for frequency of facing backup goalies depending on the caliber of your team, or if star players tend to perform better when their team sucks. I'm not aware of those being real correlations.

I do recall that, at the very peak of his career, in the year where he had 112 points, when Daniel got injured, and everyone was questioning how well Henrik would do without him, Henrik was under a PPG player playing with similar linemates to Miller, and everyone was very impressed by that output. Only when Daniel rejoined him did he become a 100 point player.

This upcoming season might reveal whether Miller's pretty much 100 point season was an aberation or not (opposing team's won't automatically assume it'll be a night off this time). Though I suspect it being a 'contract year' for Miller might give him added motivation (pretty last chance for him to get a 'big money' contract).

I just think you're underating the Sedins (whether one think they deserve to be in the HHOF, they at least have the numbers & individual hardware to suggest they do). Barring, consecutive 100 point seasons in the next few years from Miller, I doubt anybody seriously think Miller should be in the HHOF.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Just because Kesler is ranked higher than Miller, does not mean that Miller is being underrated. That is just stupid logic.

Miller is a great player, but Kesler is simply on another level.

 

[Ruthervin]

JT gets grief because he's a Benning acquisition. Flat out there are posters here admitting it.

Exactly which is why I have soured on this thread quite a bit (though I love the topic and there were some extremely good responses here). There are heavy biases on both sides of the debate in this thread and so my interest is waning.

 

[Shareefruck]

This upcoming season might reveal whether Miller's pretty much 100 point season was an aberation or not (opposing team's won't automatically assume it'll be a night off this time). Though I suspect it being a 'contract year' for Miller might give him added motivation (pretty last chance for him to get a 'big money' contract).

Ehh.. I think it's possible that it's an abberation whether we continue to suck or not, personally-- I'm very skeptical about that having much of an influence on numbers. He hasn't proven that he's consistently this caliber of player. We're just talking about how good he was last year. I would definitely agree that the 75 point version of Kesler is better than the PPG version of Miller that we got in his first two years here, though.

 

[Hit the post]

Ehh.. I think it's possible that it's an abberation whether we continue to suck or not, personally. He hasn't proven that he's consistently this caliber of player. We're just talking about how good he was last year.

Fair enough. I failed to mention injuries, which might factor into his & the team's performance. We were fairly "lucky" (as far as typical Canuck luck goes lol) with respect to injuries this past season.

To the other responses in this thread like "you just hate JT because he's a Benning acquisition", that's the biggest load of **** since Benning gave credit to Ron Delorme for drafting EP. Just because on ranks Kesler & either Sedin above Miller doesn't mean one thinks JT sucks. It's as moronic as thinking Boeser sucks because Bure was a better goal scorer.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Just because Kesler is ranked higher than Miller, does not mean that Miller is being underrated. That is just stupid logic.

Miller is a great player, but Kesler is simply on another level.

What other level was Kesler at after 2011..?.

Team leadership...?

Millers story is still ongoing, he's getting better with age.

 

[Shareefruck]

Fair enough. I failed to mention injuries, which might factor into his & the team's performance. We were fairly "lucky" (as far as typical Canuck luck goes lol) with respect to injuries this past season.

I don't really follow that logic. How do you imagine that actually influencing their totals? In the year that Henrik had 112 points, Daniel played 63 games, but Kesler, Burrows, Edler, and Ehrhoff played almost every game.

 

[Hit the post]

I don't really follow that logic. How do you imagine that actually influencing their totals? In the year that Henrik had 112 points, Daniel played 63 games, but Kesler, Burrows, Edler, and Ehrhoff played almost every game.

Current team is hardly deep. A number of prolonged injuries will effect this team than the 2011 team. Didn't Vegas get hit with a ton of injuries this past season?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Putting up points on a team going nowhere (where the opposing team will often start their backup goalie) is significantly different when you're expected to win (and the opposing team plan specific strategies to try and stop you). In their last gasp in the NHL (Willie's first season), both Sedins were in the top 15 in points in the NHL which played a major role in the team hitting 100+ points. And that was an aging team (far cry from the earlier years).

Again, Vigneault would bench Miller's ass on those lazy defensive attempts.

Boudreau is prepared to live with Millers boo-boo's...and it obviously paid off..AV is unemployed.

 

[Ace of Hades]

What other level was Kesler at after 2011..?.

Team leadership...?

Millers story is still ongoing, he's getting better with age.

This is irrelevant because the question is who would you take at their peak.

Peak of Kesler was 2009-11

Leadership can not really be accounted for unless you are in the locker room.

Fair enough. I failed to mention injuries, which might factor into his & the team's performance. We were fairly "lucky" (as far as typical Canuck luck goes lol) with respect to injuries this past season.

To the other responses in this thread like "you just hate JT because he's a Benning acquisition", that's the biggest load of **** since Benning gave credit to Ron Delorme for drafting EP. Just because on ranks Kesler & either Sedin above Miller doesn't mean one thinks JT sucks. It's as moronic as thinking Boeser sucks because Bure was a better goal scorer.

Yeah the bold just reaks of desperation after seeing their boy getting dominated by Kes in votes.

 

[Shareefruck]

Current team is hardly deep. A number of prolonged injuries will effect this team than the 2011 team. Didn't Vegas get hit with a ton of injuries this past season?

Isn't that a moot point if the players that Miller played with when fully healthy were still worse than the players that the Sedins played with? Are we saying that if Miller's totals went down, not because of his performance going down, but because we were hit by injuries that would ruin the team, Miller should be considered a worse player? I'm confused by what point you're making here.

 

[Hit the post]

Isn't that a moot point if the players that Miller played with when fully healthy were still worse than the players that the Sedins played with? Are we saying that if Miller's totals went down, not because of his performance going down, but because we were hit by injuries that would ruin the team, Miller should be considered a worse player? I'm confused by what point you're making here.

If Horvat is out for a lengthy period of time, JT will likely be the one handling the tough defensive assignments & I just think it'll negatively impact his offensive production. I'm not stating it as a fact. We're pretty thin down the middle.

 

[Ruthervin]

Current team is hardly deep. A number of prolonged injuries will effect this team than the 2011 team. Didn't Vegas get hit with a ton of injuries this past season?

I agree with you regarding our D, but our forward group is quite deep in my opinion. Not the deepest forward group in the league but we're definitely up there.

Podkolzin-Miller-Boeser
Kuzemko-Pettersson-Mikheyev
Pearson-Horvat-Garland
Hoglander-Lazar-Jackson

Dickinson

A number of prolonged injuries would effect almost every single team in the league.

 

[Shareefruck]

If Horvat is out for a lengthy period of time, JT will likely be the one handling the tough defensive assignments & I just think it'll negatively impact his offensive production. I'm not stating it as a fact. We're pretty thin down the middle.

The same would be true for the Sedins if they were in a similar situation though. How is this relevant to what we were talking about?

In fact, isn't this weirdly a point in Miller's favor? The Sedins never have to be in that situation because Kesler and Malhotra were behind them. So by your logic, their totals are artificially higher than others who perform similarly but don't have the luxury to be on a team that can sustain injuries.

 

[Ruthervin]

If Horvat is out for a lengthy period of time, JT will likely be the one handling the tough defensive assignments & I just think it'll negatively impact his offensive production. I'm not stating it as a fact. We're pretty thin down the middle.

True, but couldn't you say that about any team out there? What if Bergeron in Boston got hurt? O'Reilly in St. Louis? Injuries happen and you adjust accordingly. As a team, you can't live in fear. You march out there like soldiers and go through battle.

 

[strattonius]

This is irrelevant because the question who would you take at their peak.

Peak of Kesler was 2009-11

Miller's peak is still going.

Can't deny Kesler had a phenomenal peak but if it's 3 yrs of Kesler or 6 yrs of Miller...well that's a pretty good argument for Miller, isn't it? Remains to be seen how long Miller plays like this for.

There's a great deal of nostalgia when talking about Kesler. We had some of the best years of our franchises existence with him. I do feel that Miller is getting blasted in this vote because he's been a part of the worst era of Canucks hockey. You'd have to wonder what impact and how beloved Miller would be if we had the horses to be in the playoffs or had any deal of success at all.

Not going to make rude remarks about people that are picking Kesler because I get it but it's certainly closer than the vote imbalance is showing.

 

[Hit the post]

True, but couldn't you say that about any team out there? What if Bergeron in Boston got hurt? O'Reilly in St. Louis? Injuries happen and you adjust accordingly. As a team, you can't live in fear. You march out there like soldiers and go through battle.

**** the Ruins

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This is irrelevant because the question who would you take at their peak.

Peak of Kesler was 2009-11

Leadership can not really be accounted for unless you are in the locker room.


Yeah the bold just reaks of desperation after seeing their boy getting dominated by Kes in votes.

Agreed..2-3 good seasons of Ryan Kesler..thats it....Miller isnt even done yet, he's getting better with age...

You're right..leadership cannot be accounted for unless you're in the locker room..but i think there's enough evidence that Miller had a f*** of a lot more allegiance to his teammates than Kesler did.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Miller's peak is still going.

Can't deny Kesler had a phenomenal peak but if it's 3 yrs of Kesler or 6 yrs of Miller...well that's a pretty good argument for Miller, isn't it? Remains to be seen how long Miller plays like this for.

There's a great deal of nostalgia when talking about Kesler. We had some of the best years of our franchises existence with him. I do feel that Miller is getting blasted in this vote because he's been a part of the worst era of Canucks hockey. You'd have to wonder what impact and how beloved Miller would be if we had the horses to be in the playoffs or had any deal of success at all.

Not going to make rude remarks about people that are picking Kesler because I get it but it's certainly closer than the vote imbalance is showing.

Miller's peak was past season. I don't see him being better than what he showed. He will be a PPG first line C/W moving forward which is a fair estimate.

A lot of people still haven't gotten over Kesler demanding a trade out of Van and still hate him for it, so there is also bias against him.

Generally people know how good he is, which has nothing to do with nostalgia. He was an absolute beast in 2009- 2011.

Overall, Kesler was on a whole another level. The defensive gap is a lot higher than whatever edge Miller has offensively. Kesler was also more physical, better face off men, etc.

Kesler also has far better feats than Miller in the post season as of now. While 2011 defined how good Kesler was, I was equally as impressed with him shutting down McDavid when he was a duck.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

both Americans, but Kesler doesn't have the Benning stink on him

 

[Ace of Hades]

Agreed..2-3 good seasons of Ryan Kesler..thats it....Miller isnt even done yet, he's getting better with age...

Probably but lets take into account how both players have been deployed differently as well. Kesler's injuries slowed him down after. He even mentioned how his hip injuries still effect his daily life.

I'm not going to talk about locker room/leadership based on what I said before.

 

[Ruthervin]

**** the Ruins

I still wish I hated the Bruins like I did from 2011-2015 but too much time has passed for me since the cup loss now. The only team that I vehemently dislike are the Leafs. I'll always cheer the Blue Jays since they were my team since the late 80's (asking me to not cheer the Jays would be like asking me to cut off my left arm), but I'll always cheer for the opponents whenever the Leafs are involved.

 

[MatthewMurdock]

The notion that people dislike Miller because he's a Benning acquisition is absolutely mad considering most of the posters here are absolutely massive Pettersson and Hughes fans and defend them in every debate/thread.

Suggesting it's a biased to suggest a 40 goal Selke winner who finished similarly league wide in points to Miller is unquestionably the better player is absurd. Kesler at his pinnacle was a Bergeron/Toews/Kopitar level player and anyone would easily take any of those 3 guys over Miller in a heartbeat.

Lets remove the bias here, in 2011 Jonathan Toews finished with 76 points and this season Mitch Marner finished with 97 points. Who would you rather add to your team 2011 Toews or 2022 Mitch Marner. For me and pretty much every GM in the league it would be Toews by a mile.