JT Miller vs Ryan Kesler

[vadim sharifijanov]

After 10/11 the narrative around here was “Yeah Kesler won the Selke, but Malhotra was the real shutdown centre and defensive anchor of the team.” There was a fairly widespread belief that Kesler, while good defensively, won the Selke at least in part due to reputation and not entirely because of merit.

I’m not saying Kesler wasn’t awesome, but the gap offensively is too much for me. And I also haven’t forgotten that Kesler didn’t know how to use his linemates while Miller makes all his linemates significantly better.

2011 kesler is the best playoff kesler but your best RS kesler was 2010

22nd in pts while not on the first pp unit, 50 assists (14th in the league), 34 ES assists (also 14th), his wingers each had career goal scoring years (30 and 25 goals, respectively), and unlike 2011 when malhotra took on the tough defensive matchups 2010 kesler totally deserved the selke but reputation (datsyuk).

 

[Russian_fanatic]

We've had some pretty great players in our time. With that being said the following 3 players where just different.

Bure, Bertuzzi, Kesler where just straight up game breakers who could take over a game (Hughes will join this list soon)

Kesler vs Nashville in 2011 was one of the best series I've ever seen from a Canuck. I think people are truly forgetting how much of a beast Kesler was with us.

Kesler has my vote.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

We've had some pretty great players in our time. With that being said the following 3 players where just different.

Bure, Bertuzzi, Kesler where just straight up game breakers who could take over a game (Hughes will join this list soon)

Kesler vs Nashville in 2011 was one of the best series I've ever seen from a Canuck. I think people are truly forgetting how much of a beast Kesler was with us.

Kesler has my vote.

Sedins?

 

[StickShift]

I will say this about JT Miller—if he were to do the following two things...

(1) re-sign at an AAV perceived to be a team discount

and​

(2) continue to be reasonably productive throughout most of his contract

...,he would probably be considered a top-10 all-time Canucks player.

 

[Hit the post]

We've had some pretty great players in our time. With that being said the following 3 players where just different.

Bure, Bertuzzi, Kesler where just straight up game breakers who could take over a game (Hughes will join this list soon)

Kesler vs Nashville in 2011 was one of the best series I've ever seen from a Canuck. I think people are truly forgetting how much of a beast Kesler was with us.

Kesler has my vote.

Sedins?

 

[Regal]

You would have a point of Kesler was some skilled 2c but he was a perineal Selke candidate. If you remember correctly the Sedins throughout their primes had the highest offensive zone start% I've ever seen. Meaning Kesler the teams primary shutdown centre was tasked with other teams best players in defensive usage. That changed when Malhotra got here, but Kesler was still mainly going up against other teams best players.

This season JT Miller finished 21st in even strength scoring primary in an offensive role with better linemates where as in 2010 Kesler finished 29th in even strength scoring in tough deployment as a teams shutdown centre.

I don’t think Miller’s linemates were any better this year. Boeser was his most common, and he was crap most of the year. Samuelsson was better in ‘10 than Boeser this year. His next most common was Pearson, who is a tweener, and had a worse year than Raymond. He played some time with Garland, who was pretty inconsistent and minimal time with Pettersson who sucked half the year.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I take Kesler in his prime. I think Miller is the better player offensively, but prime Kesler could bring some pretty good offense himself while being a Selke level defensive player.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Sedins?

imo luongo before he had kids was the most dominant canuck ever, by far

that said, on the topic of this thread, even without the offence kesler was game-changing on the defensive end. and with burrows absolutely destructive on the PK.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

imo luongo before he had kids was the most dominant canuck ever, by far

that said, on the topic of this thread, even without the offence kesler was game-changing on the defensive end. and with burrows absolutely destructive on the PK.

Yeah Luongo is up there for sure. Above Kesler for me easily, just like the Sedins.

It was more about him being over worked than kids.

If you've heard what he had to do his final years playing for Florida.

Something like 2 hours of physiotherapy to be able to practice...

 

[Kickassguy]

I'd take a prime Kes over prime Miller any day of the week, and it's not particularly close in my books.

 

[biturbo19]

I feel like i just can't ever completely shake this perception that JT Miller isn't quite entirely full value for his 99 Pts somehow. Kesler at his peak always felt like an absolute beast that carried some pretty mediocre at best 2nd line wingers around with him on his back, and fully earned those points/goals even if they were largely sweet Sedin PP setups (he was so integral to making that unit as deadly as it was in so many little ways beyond just being a shot cannon). He just had an ability to take over a game in a way i've never really seen from Miller.


Not that Miller isn't a great player, but it always just feels like he's closer to a great "complementary player" than a pure unbridled catalyst. And defensively, it's just not even a discussion. Kesler was in a completely different stratosphere in that regard. Miller can be...hit or miss...to be generous.

 

[rypper]

Did Kesler ever coast back to the bench yelling "f***" instead of back checking during an OT? Asking for a friend.

 

[Hit the post]

Did Kesler ever coast back to the bench yelling "f***" instead of back checking during an OT? Asking for a friend.

Vigneault would've benched his ass.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Did Kesler ever coast back to the bench yelling "f***" instead of back checking during an OT? Asking for a friend.

Generally….Most of Millers swearing is his disgust at his own play..

The whole Miller ‘swearing’ thing is a giant nothing burger.

 

[rypper]

Generally….Most of Millers swearing is his disgust at his own play..

The whole Miller ‘swearing’ thing is a giant nothing burger.

Ok what about the coasting back to the bench instead of back checking? Or at least making an effort to get off?

Again asking for a friend.

 

[Shareefruck]

The tricky thing with Kesler is that he completely transformed his game a few times, and never put it all together. You can't just point to all the good areas that he's excelled at at one point and treat it all as one package.

He was excellent at playmaking, putting up a 50 assist season, and then suddenly became bad at playmaking, with the exact same linemates, when he realized he could be a scorer (personally, I think he was a better player when he had 50 assists than when he had 40 goals). It wasn't a circumstantial linemates thing-- he had a legitimate shift in mindset and approach, for better AND for worse.

Personally, I'm surprised that so many people are choosing Kesler over Miller. I think Miller was probably as good as a prime-Sedin last year, and Kesler, while great was never quite Sedin-level great, IMO.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Ok what about the coasting back to the bench instead of back checking? Or at least making an effort to get off?

Again asking for a friend.

He was the only top 6 player that showed up for the the first half of last season..and was the undisputed team ‘leader’..

A 99 point player..any other complaints?

Nitpicking at its finest .

 

[Hit the post]

The tricky thing with Kesler is that he completely transformed his game a few times, and never put it all together. You can't just point to all the good areas that he's excelled at at one point and treat it all as one package.

He was excellent at playmaking, putting up a 50 assist season, and then suddenly became bad at playmaking, with the exact same linemates, when he realized he could be a scorer (personally, I think he was a better player when he had 50 assists than when he had 40 goals). It wasn't a circumstantial linemates thing-- he had a legitimate shift in mindset and approach, for better AND for worse.

Personally, I'm surprised that so many people are choosing Kesler over Miller. I think Miller was probably as good as a prime-Sedin last year, and Kesler, while great was never quite Sedin-level great, IMO.

Each Sedin has major individual hardware to go along with their peaks. Miller has what? Participation trophy's? Though I as well could put either Sedin over Kesler (and certainly Miller).

 

[rypper]

He was the only top 6 player that showed up for the the first half of last season..and was the undisputed team ‘leader’..

A 99 point player..any other complaints?

Nitpicking at its finest .

Real leaders back check.

 

[Shareefruck]

Each Sedin has major individual hardware to go along with their peaks. Miller has what? Participation trophy's? Though I as well could put either Sedin over Kesler (and certainly Miller).

I don't agree with the idea of judging a player by their individual hardware rather than their actual performance, personally.

Both Sedins had weaknesses in their defensive games during their peaks that weren't much better than Miller's defensive gaffes. Miller had roughly 10 points less (and matched their output during the Boucher part of the season), while pretty much single-handedly carrying underperforming players in Pearson and Boeser (arguably weaker than Kesler's linemates) and having significantly weaker defensive support-- and a trainwreck of a coach for nearly half a season. Meanwhile, the Sedins had a set line with perfectly catered chemistry, got to play with an equivalent caliber of player in each other, had excellent coaching, and an excellent supporting cast throughout the entire lineup.

I can agree that the Sedins might get the edge, but the actual level that they performed at is very comparable, IMO.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Real leaders back check.

Lol..sure..

“Canucks coach Bruce Boudreau is sold on the high-risk, high-reward Miller because the good always outweighed the occasional bad, especially suicide cross-ice passes.



“It’s his competitiveness,” said the coach. “Sometimes, it rubs people the wrong way, but he plays with pain and he’s an unknown superstar. He’s got so much pride. When he doesn’t do well, he knows it and gets angry about it, which I have no problem with.



“He’s one really good leader and I would take him on my team any time, any day.” The Province.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Bizarre, the lack of respect Miller gets from some Canuck fans..The guy literally carried the team on his back while the other top 6 forwards couldn't find their game.

Take him out of the lineup, and there's going to be a big hole there..and then the whinging here will begin in earnest.

He's been a really good player for the Canucks.

 

[Nucker101]

Bizarre, the lack of respect Miller gets from some Canuck fans..The guy literally carried the team on his back while the other top 6 forwards couldn't find their game.

Take him out of the lineup, and there's going to be a big hole there..and then the whinging here will begin in earnest.

He's been a really good player for the Canucks.

I love Miller, I think it’s tough for him to be compared to Kesler though, just a whole different animal. You’d probably see similar posts about Horvat’s weaknesses if the pool was him vs Kesler instead.


Just the way it goes when the Kesler player is being discussed in a comparison thread, even if hes still a damn good player himself.

 

[Hit the post]

I don't agree with the idea of judging a player by their individual hardware rather than their actual performance, personally.

Both Sedins had weaknesses in their defensive games during their peaks that weren't much better than Miller's defensive gaffes. Miller had roughly 10 points less (and matched their output during the Boucher part of the season), while pretty much single-handedly carrying underperforming players in Pearson and Boeser (arguably weaker than Kesler's linemates) and having significantly weaker defensive support-- and a trainwreck of a coach for nearly half a season. Meanwhile, the Sedins had a set line with perfectly catered chemistry, got to play with an equivalent caliber of player in each other, had excellent coaching, and an excellent supporting cast throughout the entire lineup.

I can agree that the Sedins might get the edge, but the actual level that they performed at is very comparable, IMO.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Putting up points on a team going nowhere (where the opposing team will often start their backup goalie) is significantly different when you're expected to win (and the opposing team plan specific strategies to try and stop you). In their last gasp in the NHL (Willie's first season), both Sedins were in the top 15 in points in the NHL which played a major role in the team hitting 100+ points. And that was an aging team (far cry from the earlier years).

Again, Vigneault would bench Miller's ass on those lazy defensive attempts.

 

[Ruthervin]

If the rumour of Kesler sleeping with Schneider's wife is true, then I'll go with Miller.

Lots of great arguments on both sides and I'll have to admit that I might need to reconsider my stance.

On the one hand, Kesler was MUCH better defensively than Miller. The gap between Kesler and Miller's defensive abilities exceed the gap between Miller's and Kesler's offensive abilities and production. Both guys were great on special teams (PK and PP), and both guys knew how to play physical and stand up for teammates. However, Miller can play all three forward positions. Kesler can play right wing but is *clearly* more comfortable as a center. On the other hand, Kesler knew how to elevate his game when it mattered most. That series against Nashville in 2011 was the stuff of legends on Kesler's part. However, Miller was also quite good for us in the bubble even if he didn't go "beast mode" like 2011 Nashville Kesler.

For me though, the tiebreaker will have to come down to intangibles. Miller is a well known and renowned locker room leader that was clearly pulling the guys through during the 60 games of last season. Kesler was also an important member of our locker room as well. However, if the rumours of Kesler sleeping with Schneider's wife are true, then I'll have to go with Miller here.

I'll just to my thoughts:

This thread and question might be inherently flawed since a lot this decision would be based on the context. Who would you rather have at their respective peaks? Well, it would depend on the team would it not? For instance, if a team already has a prime Bergeron, Toews, Barkov, Kopitar, O'Reilly, etc., then why would they need Kesler? Especially if said team could use a versatile top 6 forward that could play in any position on a top line. You would obviously go with a Miller here.

On the flip side of this, pretend you are the current Colorado Avalanche who is about to lose Nazeem Kadri. Lets pretend you have cap space. You obviously go after a guy like Kesler so that he can free up MacKinnon. With guys like Landy and Raantanen already there, they may not need more top 6 forwards and could use that two-way beast at center to be the 'ying to the yang' for Nathan MacKinnon.