rockhouse15
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- Jul 23, 2011
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Just don't check his stats where he was second last year for forwards in P/60 and is a decent possession driver.
Joshua Ho-Sang, Center/Right-wing, 1st Round
- Thread starter The Underboss
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Just don't check his stats where he was second last year for forwards in P/60 and is a decent possession driver.
SLAPSHOT723
QU! Bobcats!
rockhouse15
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- Jul 23, 2011
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The ones where he's a positive impact but flawed role player that scores pretty well at 5v5? Yeah I watched those too.
The stats we keep that measure two-way play indicate he plays strong defense. In my visual inspections, he's a pretty strong defense player as well. Obviously you're free to disagree with the visual portion, but the statistical portion is hard to counter.
He's been a pretty steady 0.5 ppg player and trending upward. That's quite good in today's NHL.
You look at his HERO chart and you can see he's a pretty solid second-line caliber player:
http://public.tableau.com/shared/466K7CBDG?:display_count=yes
You can watch the games AND check the stats. No one is required to do both, enjoy the team any way you like. However, don't accuse someone of not watching the games simply because they take the extra step of checking the stats. It is unhelpful and insulting. There is no need for that.
Yeah, Bailey finished in the top 45 in the league for points at 5 on 5 (despite only playing 70 games), and finished with a higher 5 on 5 points per 60 minutes than JT, but he only scored during 30 or so games he played on JT's wing.
Last season, Bailey had a higher 5 on 5 points per 60 minutes before he was moved to JT's line than he did afterwards. Only 11 of his 37 5on5 points came after Okposo's injury.
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ScaredStreit
Registered User
I think people who take their time to post on HF and follow the team do watch the game. However the expression shouldn't be "watch the game", it should be "watch and understand the game". I think many people watch the game, but don't truly understand the intricacies involved. That's where their views on players go wrong. Stats don't lie, but to gain understanding of them they need to be used with the proper perspective and understanding. It's like reading Shakespeare--many people can read Shakespeare, fewer people can gain an understanding of what's going on, and even fewer are able to absorb all of the information and actually apply it.
I think that some people rely on the "eye test" too much (because it's emotional instead of rational), or rely on stats too much (because they're not actually analyzing the context of each of the stats).
The best solution really is to be able to understand the game, understand what's going on, and reference stats as a piece of that puzzle. However, if the stats don't support your conclusion-that doesn't automatically make you incorrect (although it certainly can). There could be another cause for the stats not aligning with your observations.
Correlation =/= Causation (all of the time).
The stats become very useful when you're able to distinguish which stats correlate with causation--and which ones don't.
I think that's a valuable lesson/component which many "stats people" (for lack of a better term), are going to have to define a little more clearly in the future. Just like we all know that having a poor +/- doesn't mean that a player is necessarily poor on defense. I think it'll take a few seasons to iron out all of that information, and it will be valuable once that happens.
I guess my point is simple: you need to watch the game and refer to the stats (I know you've said this hundreds of times), however I would add that we have to also be able to understand the game in terms of on-ice action and what the stats actually tell us about players (while keeping in mind that correlation =/+ causation automatically, as we try and rule out all other reasonable possibilities).
With that said Bailey's a nice player to have, but if we lost him I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over it.
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I agree with every word here. Only would add that understanding the game is difficult and I don't think anyone should be criticized, insulted, etc... for interpreting something differently. I also don't think that misunderstanding certain strategies is, in any way, unique to people who value statistics.
I'll give you a life example: I'm old and slow, but positionally sound. I have a young gun constantly yelling at me (and others) to "backcheck" out of position on my beer league team. He doesn't understand the game at all. He doesn't understand that abandoning the points to provide d-men free distribution is an extremely stupid thing to do in about 80-90% of defensive situations. Despite that he remains loud and vocal about what he thinks everyone else should do. THAT is someone who can benefit from further understanding of hockey strategy.
Sometimes I love you. Other times I hate you. You took an otherwise perfect post and ruined it!!!
Darth Milbury
Registered User
To be fair, I was just in Calgary and waited on line for coffee in a Tim Horton's. After drinking lukewarm swill, I can absolutely understated why somebody would want to drive a car through that place. In fact, if I hadn't declined collision on my avis car, I probably would have done it myself.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
I agree with every word here. Only would add that understanding the game is difficult and I don't think anyone should be criticized, insulted, etc... for interpreting something differently. I also don't think that misunderstanding certain strategies is, in any way, unique to people who value statistics.
I'll give you a life example: I'm old and slow, but positionally sound. I have a young gun constantly yelling at me (and others) to "backcheck" out of position on my beer league team. He doesn't understand the game at all. He doesn't understand that abandoning the points to provide d-men free distribution is an extremely stupid thing to do in about 80-90% of defensive situations. Despite that he remains loud and vocal about what he thinks everyone else should do. THAT is someone who can benefit from further understanding of hockey strategy.
Sometimes I love you. Other times I hate you. You took an otherwise perfect post and ruined it!!!
Jay as a 28 year old now in beer leagues-I feel your pain. One player on our team constantly wants all of us to hit everytime we get the chance-even if it takes us out of position, and it would make more sense to just angle them into the boards. Ugh!!! lol
Bailey did prove me wrong this past season though-if he plays like that again my opinion on him would definitely get stronger lol.
You're complaining about 28! It gets worse. Trust me on that. It gets MUCH worse.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
You're complaining about 28! It gets worse. Trust me on that. It gets MUCH worse.
I feel old since I'm a high school teacher...they wouldn't even know what to do with a VCR and a VHS tape.
I feel old since I'm a high school teacher...they wouldn't even know what to do with a VCR and a VHS tape.
And you wouldn't know what to do with a sky pager!
ScaredStreit
Registered User
I know what a beeper is...is that the same thing? I remember my mom having one....but I'm not too confident I could actually use one....
GrandmaSlices51631
Registered User
Very good post. I agree with most of it and would add that causation can be proven by ruling out the null hypothesis. So in Hockey terms, if a guy is said to make his line better and he's injured and they get significantly worse than you're kind of there, but not really. It's a really loose application to a sport with so many variables not being measured. After all, it is not a controlled environment and you can't replicate it because every game is different.
NYIschremp44
Registered User
Did this poster really just relate Statistics to hockey?! You know i bet we can figure out how many goals the islanders will score this year utilizing a Chi Square or how many wins with a quadratic equation! Wow!
Disgraced Cosmonaut
Registered User
... and i remember when carbon paper was the best thing since sliced bread, which doesn't do much to explain the Love & Loathing of Josh Bailey, which found its way onto a different Josh's thread. JHS is not quite baked, but will be by 2016 or, latest, 2017 season start....
Ho Sang getting a lot of attention on tsn with all of the hockey canada coverage right now. Unreal how often he gets asked about his attitude and not about the actual game itself. Does anyone know if he played last night or if he's on the roster for tonights game ? Looks like they're doing a split squad type game.
PWJunior
Stay safe!
rockhouse15
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- Jul 23, 2011
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I heard he and MDC had an assist in the game against Russia. Not 100% certain nor do I know what the line combos/usage was for both. Will watch replay of game tonight and find out. Haven't heard anything about the game tonight against Czech Republic.
Le Grec
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- Jun 28, 2011
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Watched the game last night, Ho-Sang has some wheels, geez. Like the TSN guy was saying, he has all the tool offensively but needs to be a difference maker and be less cautious.
Selanne00008
Registered User
Really? Typically a prospect of his type (high offensive skill, speed, etc) tends to already take high risks and cheat a bit, no?
rockhouse15
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- Jul 23, 2011
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Must just be from that game because from his junior games risk taking and difference making are his M.O. Also my favorite part about his game is that he makes the play to create a great scoring chance that very few people are able/willing to make.
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