Jonathan Lekkerimaki - Arrived in Abbotsford

credulous

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Nov 18, 2021
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isn’t there a rule that you have to have been called up at some pt in the RS to be eligible for the playoffs?

if you sign a player not on your reserved list (players you previously drafted or hold the rights to because they are an unsigned rfa previously signed) after the trade deadline they can play in the regular season but not the playoffs

this only really applies to undrafted players and unrestricted free agents

i'm pretty sure if lekkerimaki was unsigned the canucks could sign him five minutes before their lineup is submitted and play him
 

Vector

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if you sign a player not on your reserved list (players you previously drafted or hold the rights to because they are an unsigned rfa previously signed) after the trade deadline they can play in the regular season but not the playoffs

this only really applies to undrafted players and unrestricted free agents

i'm pretty sure if lekkerimaki was unsigned the canucks could sign him five minutes before their lineup is submitted and play him

He has to be signed before the season ended but otherwise, yeah.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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Jan 27, 2016
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if you sign a player not on your reserved list (players you previously drafted or hold the rights to because they are an unsigned rfa previously signed) after the trade deadline they can play in the regular season but not the playoffs

this only really applies to undrafted players and unrestricted free agents

i'm pretty sure if lekkerimaki was unsigned the canucks could sign him five minutes before their lineup is submitted and play him
Wasn’t this an issue with Radulov and Nashville a long time ago
 

RooBicks

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Oct 12, 2020
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Here is the framework for that table: NHL Equivalency and Prospect Projection Models: Building the NHL Equivalency Model (Part 2)

There are more current calculators to use, but none of it is supposed to be definitive. It's just a gauge where you can assess relative performance across leagues. You were talking about the relative strength of the AHL/SHL and so I thought it would be beneficial for you.





Because the OP didn't provide all NHLe calculators/conversion in his one post.

Using Lekkerimaki's same point ratio (45 games/31 points) in the AHL and SHL still yields more NHLe production when coming from the SHL than the AHL. They must not have updated their calulator with that 2024 information:






Please elaborate.
TLDR: The kinds of players following the AHL - NHL route are systematically different than the [European League] - AHL - NHL or [European League] - NHL route, and this is depressing the AHL's quality relative to these other leagues. Similar issues are potentially having the same effect for some European leagues.

The full story:

This is a great example of somebody who wants to run numbers but hasn't fully thought through the real world conditions underlying their parameters. Some people have already laid out the problems in very simple terms above, but since you're defending the stats in good faith, I wanted to break it down for you in more specific terms as someone who has a "PhD from a very good place" level background in interpreting stats.

There are really two problems with the model.

The first is that, as the author snuck in towards the end of the article, there are some really low numbers involved here. One transition had only 8 instances on record, and yet it has been included in the calculations. It could be having a significant effect on the outcome.

The second is more problematic: as the direct feeder league to the NHL, you have far more movement between the AHL and the NHL than the other leagues, and the types of players who are moving are also very different. You regularly have grinders being called up to play fourth line minutes from the AHL to the NHL, but will have far less of that in other league transitions (for example) because unlike the AHL to NHL, the transitions between most other leagues are not within farm systems or "systematic" in the same way.

This in itself wouldn't be a problem if the players moving to and from the NHL via the AHL were proportionally distributed among the different European feeder leagues, but that is highly unlikely. In other words, there are differences in kind among the transitions that are not represented in model. Players moving from the SHL to the KHL will have a very different profile than players moving from the SHL to the AHL to the NHL. You have players who are on average younger/older, have different prospect potential, are more/less offensively inclined, etc., and these rates will vary by league transition.

In sum, there are many different, nonrandom kinds of circumstances that could skew the results when considered in this light.

There will be leagues where players who break out are almost immediately scooped up by other leagues, but the rest of the league has very little movement from one league to another - the Czech Extraliga has this reputation. When players break out, they are quickly ushered elsewhere, while the rest of the league remains quite stable. In that instance, you really only have "star" players making the transition, which will dramatically skew the numbers.

Likewise, the main issue that is pushing down the AHL relative to other leagues is that, for many of these European leagues, most of the players who are transitioning from them through the AHL to the NHL are top prospects (as one poster above put it: "they're coming here for a reason"). There's better money in Europe and its closer to home, so unless you are drafted and at least somewhat touted, you're probably not playing in the AHL. By contrast, there are many players in the AHL who are not top prospects who worked up from the ECHL, etc., after playing junior or college hockey. To the extent those players are making short-term/fill-in appearances on NHL rosters due to being "in the system", their presence will drag down the AHL averages relative to the other leagues. This is why the "straight to the AHL and then to the NHL" path includes "player classes" that will not be present in the SHL-AHL-NHL or KHL-AHL-NHL path.

In sum, there are some huge theoretical problems with the stats here, and those problems seem highly likely to explain the counterintuitive ranking they provide. Hard to say exactly how big of an issue the "small numbers" problem is because the original author wasn't transparent on that front, but the "middle class" players in most of the European leagues are never playing in the NHL, while those in the AHL will tend to be less European than average (meaning they came to the AHL via other, lesser league routes) and will tend to actually show up fairly often for brief stints to play fourth line minutes and score at low/nonexistent rates. Similar kinds of issues are true for a range of other league transitions in Europe as well. This systematically damages the AHL's relative ranking (and potentially other leagues as well), and renders these results pretty much meaningless.

EDIT: And it's worth mentioning: it does the same to the measure as a means of projecting future scoring rates - or at least it does so for the "direct to AHL - NHL" route. Would have to look deeper on the rest.
 
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VanJack

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Re-watching that Lekkerimaki 2023-24 highlight reel, one thing can't be disputed. This kid has an elite-level NHL release right now, and could score 15-20 goals in the NHL if all they did was station him on the PP.

I mean he has everything in his shot arsenal; the one-timer; the quick wrister and a bomb shooting off his back foot. What's eye-popping is his release while actually skating backwards. Has to be the result of years and years of practice just shooting pucks.

He's going to be a blast to watch in Abbotsford this season, but my suspicion is that he won't last long in the AHL. As soon as the parent Canucks go into a bit of an offensive funk, he'll get recalled for a look.
 

BluesyShoes

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Dec 11, 2010
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Re-watching that Lekkerimaki 2023-24 highlight reel, one thing can't be disputed. This kid has an elite-level NHL release right now, and could score 15-20 goals in the NHL if all they did was station him on the PP.

I mean he has everything in his shot arsenal; the one-timer; the quick wrister and a bomb shooting off his back foot. What's eye-popping is his release while actually skating backwards. Has to be the result of years and years of practice just shooting pucks.

He's going to be a blast to watch in Abbotsford this season, but my suspicion is that he won't last long in the AHL. As soon as the parent Canucks go into a bit of an offensive funk, he'll get recalled for a look.

His shot is bananas, it really stands out how he can get off a great shot while off balance, mid-stride, off a bad pass, or moving backwards and off the back foot as you point out. I think that is something that often goes overlooked and can be the distinction between a good and a great goalscorer. Petey for example, amazing shot, but he is extremely picky with the set-up passes he elects to one-time on the powerplay, and he frequently bounces passes back to Hughes which I think has hurt our powerplay efficiency. Miller is much better at getting his shot off while off balance, but I think Lekk may be identified as the best shooter the moment he joins the big club. He's also got a fair amount of deception available in his release. I don't doubt countless hours were spent developing his shot; his stickhandling and offensive iq are nothing to scoff at either, he plays well off the puck to find and time openings, similar to how Boeser found success this past season.

Really excited for what this player might bring to the team, although I'm prepared to be patient and hope he gets enough time in the minors do develop the forchecking and habits to succeed in Tocchet's system. He didn't exactly thrive in his brief stink in the AHL, and he was also not selected by Sweden for the Worlds, so there is definitely work to do. Not a lot of room on the wings for the Canucks as it stands, and without a trade we will likely be exposing some useful players to waivers after camp. My money is on Lekk not seeing NHL ice until at least the 2025 calendar year, maybe in February before the trade deadline as the team assesses their needs.
 

1440

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Feb 20, 2013
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TLDR: The kinds of players following the AHL - NHL route are systematically different than the [European League] - AHL - NHL or [European League] - NHL route, and this is depressing the AHL's quality relative to these other leagues. Similar issues are potentially having the same effect for some European leagues.

The full story:

This is a great example of somebody who wants to run numbers but hasn't fully thought through the real world conditions underlying their parameters. Some people have already laid out the problems in very simple terms above, but since you're defending the stats in good faith, I wanted to break it down for you in more specific terms as someone who has a "PhD from a very good place" level background in interpreting stats.

There are really two problems with the model.

The first is that, as the author snuck in towards the end of the article, there are some really low numbers involved here. One transition had only 8 instances on record, and yet it has been included in the calculations. It could be having a significant effect on the outcome.

The second is more problematic: as the direct feeder league to the NHL, you have far more movement between the AHL and the NHL than the other leagues, and the types of players who are moving are also very different. You regularly have grinders being called up to play fourth line minutes from the AHL to the NHL, but will have far less of that in other league transitions (for example) because unlike the AHL to NHL, the transitions between most other leagues are not within farm systems or "systematic" in the same way.

This in itself wouldn't be a problem if the players moving to and from the NHL via the AHL were proportionally distributed among the different European feeder leagues, but that is highly unlikely. In other words, there are differences in kind among the transitions that are not represented in model. Players moving from the SHL to the KHL will have a very different profile than players moving from the SHL to the AHL to the NHL. You have players who are on average younger/older, have different prospect potential, are more/less offensively inclined, etc., and these rates will vary by league transition.

In sum, there are many different, nonrandom kinds of circumstances that could skew the results when considered in this light.

There will be leagues where players who break out are almost immediately scooped up by other leagues, but the rest of the league has very little movement from one league to another - the Czech Extraliga has this reputation. When players break out, they are quickly ushered elsewhere, while the rest of the league remains quite stable. In that instance, you really only have "star" players making the transition, which will dramatically skew the numbers.

Likewise, the main issue that is pushing down the AHL relative to other leagues is that, for many of these European leagues, most of the players who are transitioning from them through the AHL to the NHL are top prospects (as one poster above put it: "they're coming here for a reason"). There's better money in Europe and its closer to home, so unless you are drafted and at least somewhat touted, you're probably not playing in the AHL. By contrast, there are many players in the AHL who are not top prospects who worked up from the ECHL, etc., after playing junior or college hockey. To the extent those players are making short-term/fill-in appearances on NHL rosters due to being "in the system", their presence will drag down the AHL averages relative to the other leagues. This is why the "straight to the AHL and then to the NHL" path includes "player classes" that will not be present in the SHL-AHL-NHL or KHL-AHL-NHL path.

In sum, there are some huge theoretical problems with the stats here, and those problems seem highly likely to explain the counterintuitive ranking they provide. Hard to say exactly how big of an issue the "small numbers" problem is because the original author wasn't transparent on that front, but the "middle class" players in most of the European leagues are never playing in the NHL, while those in the AHL will tend to be less European than average (meaning they came to the AHL via other, lesser league routes) and will tend to actually show up fairly often for brief stints to play fourth line minutes and score at low/nonexistent rates. Similar kinds of issues are true for a range of other league transitions in Europe as well. This systematically damages the AHL's relative ranking (and potentially other leagues as well), and renders these results pretty much meaningless.

Some very good points here. This said, there is another very important factor to consider for leagues like the SHL and KHL that you have not mentioned: scoring and point production rates. The SHL is a lower scoring league in general (by almost 1 goal per game on average when compared to the NHL or AHL), and secondary assists are less readily awarded. The top scorer in the SHL had only 51 points in what is a 52 game season. By contrast, the top AHL scorer had 77 in what is a 72 game season.

Clearly, with this factor alone you can end up with a weaker league like the SHL having a higher NHLe value because a higher quality league does not necessarily mean points are harder to come by.
 

RooBicks

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Some very good points here. This said, there is another very important factor to consider for leagues like the SHL and KHL that you have not mentioned: scoring and point production rates. The SHL is a lower scoring league in general (by almost 1 goal per game on average when compared to the NHL or AHL), and secondary assists are less readily awarded. The top scorer in the SHL had only 51 points in what is a 52 game season. By contrast, the top AHL scorer had 77 in what is a 72 game season.

Clearly, with this factor alone you can end up with a weaker league like the SHL having a higher NHLe value because a higher quality league does not necessarily mean points are harder to come by.
Holy carp you're right. Talk about overcomplicating things! :D Though I guess this on its own doesn't necessarily invalidate the measure as a means of (very roughly) projecting scoring, it just means you can't use it to compare league strength. Combined with the other stuff, its validity is completely blown out on both fronts though.
 
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VanJack

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Over the years, winning the MVP at the World Junior Hockey Championships is almost an automatic passport to the NHL.

The only thing to be determined--is how high is the ceiling?
 
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604

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I hope we keep this player out of the minors.

Hope he makes the big club but if not, still don’t want him going to the cheap shot league that is the AHL.
 
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VanJack

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It always astonishes me how some guys, who aren't all that big like Lekkerimaki, still have a full arsenal of shots, and they're all laser beams.

He gets his shot off in barely the blink of an eye.....and like a lot of goal-scorers he's able to cradle the puck for that split second to change the shooting angle and fool the goaltender. He seems to score a ton of short-side goals, where there barely seems to ban an inch of room.

And it really is eye-opening how he can score on one-timers from almost out near the blueline, as he did at the World Hockey Championships.

I guess size is the only question-mark.....he listed at 5'11" and 172 at Hockey DB. But hopefully that's now out of date as he turns 20 in 10 days or so. If he gets stronger and hits the NHL at maybe 185-190, it'll be scary to think how good his shot will be.

Checking out that 2022 NHL entry draft, it's clear that he should never have lasted on the board until 15th overall. I guess there were concerns about his size and maybe his skating, although there's no issue now.

Three of the players picked ahead of him, Matthew Savoie, Cutter Gauthier and Connor Geekie, have already been traded. And it looks as if the Jets and Rutger McGroaty aren't going to get a deal done so he could be on the move as well. And of course Shane Wright has spent the last two years in the minors and is definitely on the bubble with Seattle.

Canucks may have seriously lucked out with Lekkerimaki like they did when the drafted Brock Boeser in the 2015 entry draft.
 

IComeInPeace

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Three of the players picked ahead of him, Matthew Savoie, Cutter Gauthier and Connor Geekie, have already been traded. And it looks as if the Jets and Rutger McGroaty aren't going to get a deal done so he could be on the move as well. And of course Shane Wright has spent the last two years in the minors and is definitely on the bubble with Seattle.
Personal preference aside perhaps, I don’t think JL surpasses any of those guys yet (unless you put Gauthier and McGroarty on some type of DND list).

JL definitely looks like a good pick for us, but those guys you listed still also look like good picks (perceived attitude issues aside for a couple of them).

I think it will come down to their development at the pro level.

Savoie is a weird one.

He had a very good D+2 season (over 2 PPG in junior, 5 points in 6 games in the AHL after his junior season ended)…and then he’s traded for a good 3rd line center.

It seems like GMs still just hate little guys…which makes me wonder why Buffalo drafted him where they did…?

A guy you drafted at #9 overall seems to be developing the way you’d expect/hope after 2 seasons…and even in that almost best case scenario his trade value is still only that of a good 3rd line center???

…and I’m saying that even while acknowledging Ryan McLeod is a good player and a good target for Buffalo.
 

nergish

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I really don't see this guy being rushed into the NHL lineup.
Yes, he is our best forward prospect, but this is a team that intends to compete.

I just think it's exciting that he's now coming to play in North America, and has a chance to show his skills at the main camp.

It's all up to him, honestly. What team doesn't want an ELC sniper to walk onto their roster? If he's ready, he's ready. But absolutely no harm in playing in the minors this season.

At the end of the day he is a skinny guy who lacks pro-level strength, and was always intended to be a bit of a project physically.
 
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VanJack

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Odds are Lekkerimaki will need at least half a season, maybe more in the AHL. But there are also examples of guys like Mitch Marner and Matt Barzal, who aren't much bigger, but never spent a day in the minors.

It seems almost certain that the Canucks will give him a lot of rope in training camp, to see if there's any chance of his offense translating to the NHL. Because even though they went out and got DeBrusk, they're still down 'a scoring winger'.

If Lekkerimaki could ever come in and light it up as a rookie on an ELC, it would be a major game-changer for this Canuck roster.
 

Lindgren

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Odds are Lekkerimaki will need at least half a season, maybe more in the AHL. But there are also examples of guys like Mitch Marner and Matt Barzal, who aren't much bigger, but never spent a day in the minors.

It seems almost certain that the Canucks will give him a lot of rope in training camp, to see if there's any chance of his offense translating to the NHL. Because even though they went out and got DeBrusk, they're still down 'a scoring winger'.

If Lekkerimaki could ever come in and light it up as a rookie on an ELC, it would be a major game-changer for this Canuck roster.
I've expressed serious skepticism about JL playing in the NHL in the coming season, but maybe it'll happen! A debut season anything like Marner's or Barzal's would be amazing.
 
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WiLBoY

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Guy has a good shot but hopefully doesn't fall down like pettersson all the time in the nhl
 

VanJack

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Guy has a good shot but hopefully doesn't fall down like pettersson all the time in the nhl
Watched all five of his games with the Abbotsford Canucks on the AHL Network. I was surprised that he didn't back down from the physicality and could push the pace with his skating, which was another surprise.

And he was firing a lot of pucks at the net, but was getting a lot of them blocked. And that will be a big adjustment on a smaller rink. A lot of his one-timers and snap-shots that were getting through to the goal in Europe, were getting blocked on the smaller ice.

But that's where a shooter like Leikkerimaki needs a crafty center to get him the puck in prime shooting areas. Not sure the Canucks will have anyone in Abbotsford like that this season.

But even if Lekkerimaki only ends up on the first unit PP, he'll still be a very dangerous player.
 

LordBacon

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Let him marinate in the ahl.
A contending team has no use of him unless he absolutely blow the doors out and forces his way into the big team.
 
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