Jonathan Bernier - Player Discussion 2016

[teeder333*]

I have always liked Bernier, I think it shows excellent management skills from our braintrust that they didn't panic and just sent Bernier to the Marlies to try and get him back into his mode.

That was a brilliant move. I bet in the past they might have panicked with prior management, but not this management.

What does it mean? Shows the rest of the players in the Leaf organization that the organization will do everything it can to help a player find his way. Big win.

 

[Mats13]

it is not for free.

in a cap world - contract space + 4.1 million dollars is an asset.
Bernier would net what? a 2nd (or lower) pick added. Let's just be honest here. Anything Bernier would net would be less than a first, and higher than a 4th.

Even if he was playing at league standard - what specifically would the difference be in a bloated goalie market? 4.1 is a lot to swallow for a lot of teams. If someone actually picked it up - that gives US 4.1 million more to be aggressive in getting other players or buying more contracts up in order to gain more picks (or prospects) that you simply don't get with trading goalies for the most part.

but you can think it's stupid. but I stand by what I said.
having a contract and 4.1 million free off a player that isn't going to be here past next year anyway and you more than likely wouldn't get anything more than a 2nd through 4th or a meh prospect back. makes no difference to me. it gives the leafs more flexibility to be more creative.

i am right here.
and I stand by my opinion, so you can laugh at me all you want.

but seriously, things like this irk me so much. he has a good game, so it's like where are people who have a unique opinion. Had he been blown out I wouldn't have gone. "See! see ! this is why I would."

I articulated my position, and I feel firmly what I said when I said it, that i would take that risk.

at any rate. I am very glad he played well. Good for him.

to answer who plays tomorrow, Babcock said if Reimer decided he wants to play (he was very irked with this), Reiimer plays, or Bibeau will.

Ok, this is starting to annoy me. You are flat out wrong.

You want to waive him for the sole purpose of cap space.... We have well over $20 million to spend this summer (with Bernier). How much more money could you possibly need???

Not to mention, Bernier is only signed for one more year after this one. So your supposed "cap savings" would be rather short lived.

And cap space is made to be spent. Cap space in of itself has no value. We have plenty of space to maneuver a trade given our current cap situation.

Do you plan on signing like 3 superstars this summer or something? What's the rational?

If you want cap space for trades, we have plenty.

If you want it for Stammer, we have it.

Bernier's contract is up after next season, so there is zero long term concerns (eventual Marner and Nylander contracts).

Your logic is beyond flawed. Maybe it's time to take a step back and look at the big picture.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Any player or goalie can implose, see lundqvist this month, its how or it they can come out of it.
If bernier maintains this level of play for the rest of his contract are you saying you wouldn't resign him?

Yup.

Rask was brutal early on and Sergei "I've lost my confidence" Bobrovsky (the same guy the Leafs potted 6 against in October) is back up to a .916 save % after starting like 1-10 to start the season.

Outside of health issues, Bernier/Reimer is the best the Leafs have looked in net since......maybe Belfour?

I dunno, some are just too hard on them both IMO.

Ya pretty much every goalie goes through tough patches. Rask lundqvist quick. Its a tough and unforgiving position to play. As fans we should be on both their sides.

To answer this chain of comments:

First off I'd like to point out that the only goaltenders that are worth a long term contract with big money, which is what any goaltender with some track record will seek, is the select few who consistently provide good enough goaltending for their team to have a chance to find success. So in most cases, the guys who'll want a big commitment, like a Bernier or Reimer, don't give you much more than the cheap alternatives or prospects do. A chance for good enough play, a chance to sink you. So there's no reason to pay a lot for a negligible impact.

All goalies have of course bad patches of play. Partially because nobody can be at their best all the time, and partially because of circumstances out of their control. However, there is a huge difference between a Lundquist, Rask, Schneider or Holtby having a bad couple of weeks, and a Bernier having a bad calendar year.

All the goaltenders I mentioned have been consistently good enough performers to give their team a chance for success. Every season, every playoff. That kind of reliability is worth money. Every second season isn't, as that's closer to the level of play that the cheap alternatives can provide.

If I come across as harsh, it's because it's not only a tough position, it's one where most investments of money provides little bang for the buck. It's nothing personal, on the contrary you'll find if you look back that I've traditionally been a supporter of both goaltenders, particularly Bernier. Smart management decisions always comes first though.

There are some great articles that go into some length about this, I can see if I still have the links somewhere.

 

[carko32]

I'm very happy that Bernier gets this chance to restore his name a bit, but it doesn't really change my opinion on what we should do with him. Consistency is key for any goaltender you want to keep around long-term, we can't have a goaltender who might implode if things go wrong. Might as well save the cap space in that case.

Edit: I see that you have written almost exactly same response to someone else as I had written to you. Still going to post it, but just wanted to add, that I agree with your position.

Well he is signed for next season, so I doubt we won't get the opportunity to watch and figure out if he can be consistent or not.

And as it was written on TSN few months ago, there are only few goalies in this league that deserve long-term contract, such as Holtby, Schneider, Lundquist, Price and Quick. Maybe someone else also, but most of the long-term contracts had more hurt their team than anything.

So I am open to signing this guys(Bernier or Reimer) for 2, maybe 3 years. And I can see Reimer being the best goalie on the market, since I believe Calgary will re-sign Ramo, who is playing really well for past 2 months.

 

[Le Cobra]

Reimer fan here. Bernier has been nit picked about his lack of height and size but he didn't have to physically grow, he just grew in confidence. Congrats on your shutout Bernier. I kinda wish he would be given the start tomorrow as he has the upper hand on his former team, but here's to Reimer continuing his own hot streak! GO LEAFS GO

 

[Shanty]

I will no longer continue discussions about our goalies, because every single time I make a statement about either one of them... They do something to completely oppose my point.

Go goalies, I don't care which one of you anymore...

 

[carko32]

I will no longer continue discussions about our goalies, because every single time I make a statement about either one of them... They do something to completely oppose my point.

Go goalies, I don't care which one of you anymore...

In this case you should write that you hope that they both every game let in 4 or 5 goals. If contrary result is true, then we should we have shutouts.

 

[CanadasTeam]

6 - 2 - 2 since his stint with the Marlies.

Some people will now at least recognize that Bernier is capable of playing in the NHL.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Ok, this is starting to annoy me. You are flat out wrong.

You want to waive him for the sole purpose of cap space.... We have well over $20 million to spend this summer (with Bernier). How much more money could you possibly need???

Not to mention, Bernier is only signed for one more year after this one. So your supposed "cap savings" would be rather short lived.

And cap space is made to be spent. Cap space in of itself has no value. We have plenty of space to maneuver a trade given our current cap situation.

Do you plan on signing like 3 superstars this summer or something? What's the rational?

If you want cap space for trades, we have plenty.

If you want it for Stammer, we have it.

Bernier's contract is up after next season, so there is zero long term concerns (eventual Marner and Nylander contracts).

Your logic is beyond flawed. Maybe it's time to take a step back and look at the big picture.

you're getting annoyed because, I have a different opinion from you? Okay. fine.


In a cap world. everything is an asset. that is my argument.
You stated -Bernier being waived is losing an asset would be free.

I pointed out - No. it is not. This is what an asset is in a cap world:

Draft pick: asset
prospect: asset
roster player: asset
contract space: asset.
cap space: asset

So theoretically - had the Leafs waived Leafs and someone had picked him up. we would have not lost him for nothing as people keep claiming. We would have acquired back an asset. And because Bernier is a goalie - it's not like we would be getting back a high quality draft pick or a roster player or those other assets people would want to have.

Having that extra capspace (as I've also eluded to) could also allow the Leafs to take on more bloated (one year or so) contracts in order to get some more highly/quality prospects etc, for the highly cap-strapped teams. (if they should want to do so). I am not stupid. I know cap-space is meant to be spent, however - I disagree that not using it is a waste. I believe it can be a luxury/buffer to always have some around to always - constantly be able to make moves. it isn't just about signing "super-stars" it's about being a step or two ahead, and being able to strike. I would hope - that even when we're fantastic, we'd always try to keep a little cap space (as it IS an asset), to have some movability.

And then - to the second part you quoted - . where was I wrong in that? Again - it was my opinion to which I stated - just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I don't stand by it, and I don't disappear or waiver from it because Bernier had a fantastic game - something I always give credit for. And if (or when) I am flat wrong about something, I always acknowledge that I was publicly.

As well, as I stating, what is also irritating is this habit that people constantly tend to have is
"LOL _______ had a good game, where are the people who ______" it's not just Bernier. it's pick the player and it's the same sentiment.

if all of that requires me to step back and look at the "bigger picture" than fine. I'll do so. I am severely sorry that my opinion irritated you so.

 

[King Leaf]

Ok, this is starting to annoy me. You are flat out wrong.

You want to waive him for the sole purpose of cap space.... We have well over $20 million to spend this summer (with Bernier). How much more money could you possibly need???

Not to mention, Bernier is only signed for one more year after this one. So your supposed "cap savings" would be rather short lived.

And cap space is made to be spent. Cap space in of itself has no value. We have plenty of space to maneuver a trade given our current cap situation.

Do you plan on signing like 3 superstars this summer or something? What's the rational?

If you want cap space for trades, we have plenty.

If you want it for Stammer, we have it.

Bernier's contract is up after next season, so there is zero long term concerns (eventual Marner and Nylander contracts).

Your logic is beyond flawed. Maybe it's time to take a step back and look at the big picture.

With the situation the Leafs are in right now, I do agree with what you're saying. I don't think cap space matter to this team so much at this particular point in the rebuild, nor do I really think it will matter next year. We will have to start signing smart deals when Marner and Nylander start playing, just because we'll have to make sure we have plenty of room to sign those guys when their ELC's are up. Then cap space will be very valuable and something to be considered.

As a side note, you're coming off as way too antagonistic which makes it hard to agree with you. Even when you are technically right.

 

[Shanty]

In this case you should write that you hope that they both every game let in 4 or 5 goals. If contrary result is true, then we should we have shutouts.

I like your thinking.

Go other team's goal scorers!

 

[saltming]

To answer this chain of comments:

First off I'd like to point out that the only goaltenders that are worth a long term contract with big money, which is what any goaltender with some track record will seek, is the select few who consistently provide good enough goaltending for their team to have a chance to find success. So in most cases, the guys who'll want a big commitment, like a Bernier or Reimer, don't give you much more than the cheap alternatives or prospects do. A chance for good enough play, a chance to sink you. So there's no reason to pay a lot for a negligible impact.

All goalies have of course bad patches of play. Partially because nobody can be at their best all the time, and partially because of circumstances out of their control. However, there is a huge difference between a Lundquist, Rask, Schneider or Holtby having a bad couple of weeks, and a Bernier having a bad calendar year.

All the goaltenders I mentioned have been consistently good enough performers to give their team a chance for success. Every season, every playoff. That kind of reliability is worth money. Every second season isn't, as that's closer to the level of play that the cheap alternatives can provide.

If I come across as harsh, it's because it's not only a tough position, it's one where most investments of money provides little bang for the buck. It's nothing personal, on the contrary you'll find if you look back that I've traditionally been a supporter of both goaltenders, particularly Bernier. Smart management decisions always comes first though.

There are some great articles that go into some length about this, I can see if I still have the links somewhere.

I agree with you but my stance is that both our goalies may have turned that corner to become a stud so why not see what we have? Price was very inconsistent for years. It wasnt until the habs got the goalie coach from chi that he really found his grove. The position is not as easy to fill as some people think. Like hey lets go to goalies are us and grab another starter.
Reimer is ufa and I doubt he signs a 2 year 2.5 mil or less deal, so I think he's gone. We still have Bernier for another year. If he can bring that consistency why not retain him? Term and money tbd hopefully something reasonable.

 

[saltming]

 

[Gary Nylund]

When Bernier was pulled after 2 periods, I thought his days as a Leaf may be nearing an end. As an aside, I thought playing Reimer for the 3rd was not a good idea, first time I've questioned a move Babcock made so I'm not going to crazy over it but the game was out of reach etc. ... OK whatever, if they thought Reimer was 100% ready to go that would explain it, perhaps they were just wrong about that one, it happens.

Anyhow, Bernier is playing so well, he's like a Phoenix rising from the ashes. It could end at any moment I guess but maybe there is some chance that he has finally figured it out, that this is the new Bernier who will become a solid above average #1 goalie for some team, maybe even the Leafs.

I'm not making any predictions of course. I don't remember being so befuddled ever by anything in hockey as I am with the Leafs goal-tending situation this season. Sure is entertaining though.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I agree with you but my stance is that both our goalies may have turned that corner to become a stud so why not see what we have? Price was very inconsistent for years. It wasnt until the habs got the goalie coach from chi that he really found his grove. The position is not as easy to fill as some people think. Like hey lets go to goalies are us and grab another starter.
Reimer is ufa and I doubt he signs a 2 year 2.5 mil or less deal, so I think he's gone. We still have Bernier for another year. If he can bring that consistency why not retain him? Term and money tbd hopefully something reasonable.

Sure.

I want to note that my hesitation was pretty much only regarding giving that contract with term and contract. Further chances is something I don't have a problem with at all.

I think we'll have to choose one of them to give a proper chance to, just so they can get the games needed and actually fill that role they audition for. Right now I'm leaning Reimer for that, but if Bernier continues to play like this I might change my opinion.

 

[saltming]

Sure.

I want to note that my hesitation was pretty much only regarding giving that contract with term and contract. Further chances is something I don't have a problem with at all.

I think we'll have to choose one of them to give a proper chance to, just so they can get the games needed and actually fill that role they audition for. Right now I'm leaning Reimer for that, but if Bernier continues to play like this I might change my opinion.

We are in agreement about the contract, though I'm leaning towards bernier IF he shows consistency.
I've stated earlier that the one think I've noticed is the way he tracks the puck. He used to ignore it as it went behind he net if a leafs player was in position to get it, lately he's following it until its on the players stick. It might seem like a small adjustment but imo it shows his different focus level.
I also would not be against Reimer as he has improved the part of his game that I was most dissatisfied with, tracking the puck. Haha.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Jonathon Bernier has been excellent.

Leafs have really handled the goaltending about as good as can be expected here. His stint in the minors really got the confidence back. He looks really composed in that net.

 

[spidergoalie]

To answer this chain of comments:

First off I'd like to point out that the only goaltenders that are worth a long term contract with big money, which is what any goaltender with some track record will seek, is the select few who consistently provide good enough goaltending for their team to have a chance to find success. So in most cases, the guys who'll want a big commitment, like a Bernier or Reimer, don't give you much more than the cheap alternatives or prospects do. A chance for good enough play, a chance to sink you. So there's no reason to pay a lot for a negligible impact.

All goalies have of course bad patches of play. Partially because nobody can be at their best all the time, and partially because of circumstances out of their control. However, there is a huge difference between a Lundquist, Rask, Schneider or Holtby having a bad couple of weeks, and a Bernier having a bad calendar year.

All the goaltenders I mentioned have been consistently good enough performers to give their team a chance for success. Every season, every playoff. That kind of reliability is worth money. Every second season isn't, as that's closer to the level of play that the cheap alternatives can provide.

If I come across as harsh, it's because it's not only a tough position, it's one where most investments of money provides little bang for the buck. It's nothing personal, on the contrary you'll find if you look back that I've traditionally been a supporter of both goaltenders, particularly Bernier. Smart management decisions always comes first though.

There are some great articles that go into some length about this, I can see if I still have the links somewhere.

This is a very good post.
I think the Leafs would have had a pretty good shot at Schneider when he was a Canuck and everyone was talking about Luongo. And I don't need to mention the Rask thing.

I like both our goalies and want them both to succeed. I have a preference for Bernier, but the truth is they are essentially the same, and neither are of the quality of those you listed. They really do not have any greater value than any young goalie coming up the system, once they prove they can play in the NHL. I mean Reimer was exactly that and really only got his shot due to injuries. When he outperformed both Gustavsson and Giguere, he won the gig.

(btw just to add to those "where are the _____ haters/lovers now" posts...remember when we were being told here that "Monster" was going to be a superstar? Believing the hype and cheering for the guy you are a fan of is simply not a good way to evaluate a goalie)

 

[Mats13]

you're getting annoyed because, I have a different opinion from you? Okay. fine.


In a cap world. everything is an asset. that is my argument.
You stated -Bernier being waived is losing an asset would be free.

I pointed out - No. it is not. This is what an asset is in a cap world:

Draft pick: asset
prospect: asset
roster player: asset
contract space: asset.
cap space: asset

So theoretically - had the Leafs waived Leafs and someone had picked him up. we would have not lost him for nothing as people keep claiming. We would have acquired back an asset. And because Bernier is a goalie - it's not like we would be getting back a high quality draft pick or a roster player or those other assets people would want to have.

Having that extra capspace (as I've also eluded to) could also allow the Leafs to take on more bloated (one year or so) contracts in order to get some more highly/quality prospects etc, for the highly cap-strapped teams. (if they should want to do so). I am not stupid. I know cap-space is meant to be spent, however - I disagree that not using it is a waste. I believe it can be a luxury/buffer to always have some around to always - constantly be able to make moves. it isn't just about signing "super-stars" it's about being a step or two ahead, and being able to strike. I would hope - that even when we're fantastic, we'd always try to keep a little cap space (as it IS an asset), to have some movability.

And then - to the second part you quoted - . where was I wrong in that? Again - it was my opinion to which I stated - just because I have a different opinion doesn't mean I don't stand by it, and I don't disappear or waiver from it because Bernier had a fantastic game - something I always give credit for. And if (or when) I am flat wrong about something, I always acknowledge that I was publicly.

As well, as I stating, what is also irritating is this habit that people constantly tend to have is
"LOL _______ had a good game, where are the people who ______" it's not just Bernier. it's pick the player and it's the same sentiment.

if all of that requires me to step back and look at the "bigger picture" than fine. I'll do so. I am severely sorry that my opinion irritated you so.

I could do without the condescending attitude. Like I said, you're wrong and you simply refuse to even second guess your opinion.

My problem with your opinion is that you have nothing to back it up. All you keep saying is that we get cap space and you never answer what makes that cap space an asset. What do plan on using it for?

Let's break it down:

This season:

The only use of cap space this season would be to take on a cap dump in a deal. But we already have over 5 million in cap space. How big of a cap dump are we taking on?

Furthermore, after we take on the cap dump you'll want to waive him too and we'll be right back where we are now.

The off season:

The Leafs have over 20 million available, unless we're somehow going to sign 3 superstars this summer, we don't need the extra 4.1.

Next season:

Similar to this off season, unless we're somehow acquiring Toews and Kane, we will have plenty of cap flexibility.

Contract over

That's it, his cap hit is gone.

Now please tell me, what is the planned use of the cap space you keep referring to?

Is this not the same as just letting someone walk in free agency? I mean we do save cap space, right?

But, when Burke/Nonis did it we all ripped them for not turning those players into actual assets.

All of this without even getting into Bernier the player. I won't even go into why waiving him isn't a good idea as Leafs fans have seen this story before. We give up on a player and they end up becoming pretty damn good somewhere else and for what? Cap space?

Your logic is beyond flawed and you should probably re-think your stance.

 

[Mats13]

With the situation the Leafs are in right now, I do agree with what you're saying. I don't think cap space matter to this team so much at this particular point in the rebuild, nor do I really think it will matter next year. We will have to start signing smart deals when Marner and Nylander start playing, just because we'll have to make sure we have plenty of room to sign those guys when their ELC's are up. Then cap space will be very valuable and something to be considered.

As a side note, you're coming off as way too antagonistic which makes it hard to agree with you. Even when you are technically right.

Fair enough, and I do agree with you on Marner and Nylander. We'll need cap space for them in the future. But, Bernier's contract will be over before either of their ELCs end.

 

[saltming]

I could do without the condescending attitude. Like I said, you're wrong and you simply refuse to even second guess your opinion.

My problem with your opinion is that you have nothing to back it up. All you keep saying is that we get cap space and you never answer what makes that cap space an asset. What do plan on using it for?

Let's break it down:

This season:

The only use of cap space this season would be to take on a cap dump in a deal. But we already have over 5 million in cap space. How big of a cap dump are we taking on?

Furthermore, after we take on the cap dump you'll want to waive him too and we'll be right back where we are now.

The off season:

The Leafs have over 20 million available, unless we're somehow going to sign 3 superstars this summer, we don't need the extra 4.1.

Next season:

Similar to this off season, unless we're somehow acquiring Toews and Kane, we will have plenty of cap flexibility.

Contract over

That's it, his cap hit is gone.

Now please tell me, what is the planned use of the cap space you keep referring to?

Is this not the same as just letting someone walk in free agency? I mean we do save cap space, right?

But, when Burke/Nonis did it we all ripped them for not turning those players into actual assets.

All of this without even getting into Bernier the player. I won't even go into why waiving him isn't a good idea as Leafs fans have seen this story before. We give up on a player and they end up becoming pretty damn good somewhere else and for what? Cap space?

Your logic is beyond flawed and you should probably re-think your stance.

You are both right. Cap space is an asset and that's a fact. You're right we don't needed it at the moment but that doesn't change the fact that it is an asset.
I don't think her argument, as I've read it is that we need it, just that it is an asset. Who k ows what could come up or when it could be useful to have?

 

[Daisy Jane]

I could do without the condescending attitude. Like I said, you're wrong and you simply refuse to even second guess your opinion.

you said my opinion was making you angry, I explain where I was thinking and then I apologise that my opinion irritates you and now you think I'm being condescending? Well. again. I apologise if you feel that I was condescending towards you. I was not. It wasn't my intention to make you angry, or make you feel that I was being condescending towards you. So. Again. I'm sorry.


however. I explained my thought several times. you don' agree or see where i am coming from and that's fine.

I personally don't believe Bernier is a goaltender that the Leafs should commit to long term, which I've also consistently pointed out.

And I will leave it there.

 

[Mats13]

you said my opinion was making you angry, I explain where I was thinking and then I apologise that my opinion irritates you and now you think I'm being condescending? Well. again. I apologise if you feel that I was condescending towards you. I was not. It wasn't my intention to make you angry, or make you feel that I was being condescending towards you. So. Again. I'm sorry.


however. I explained my thought several times. you don' agree or see where i am coming from and that's fine.

I personally don't believe Bernier is a goaltender that the Leafs should commit to long term, which I've also consistently pointed out.

And I will leave it there.

So once again, you fail to provide any actual evidence to back up your claims or answer any of the questions I asked. You haven't explained anything. You spoke your opinion and said "I'll stand by it not matter how much evidence there is to the contrary".

I'll ask again though because you've avoided it every time I ask, what's the use of these cap savings you keep claiming are more important than a potential starting goalie? What do you think they'll realistically be used on?

 

[airbus220]

This season:

The only use of cap space this season would be to take on a cap dump in a deal. But we already have over 5 million in cap space. How big of a cap dump are we taking on?

Furthermore, after we take on the cap dump you'll want to waive him too and we'll be right back where we are now.

Your logic is beyond flawed and you should probably re-think your stance.

If you take on a cap dump and then you waive him it won't give you cap relief, at least not as much as you might be thinking of. If it were like you might think there would be no reason for teams to trade away bad contracts as a cap dumb, they would simply waive them. Very flawed.

The reason to get rid of Bernier is because he's very flawed too and that at a high salary. You correct the mistake of giving Bernier a 2 year contract. If management didn't choose arbitration they could have had Bernier for only 1 year and all this would be nothing to talk about. Correct the mistake.

 

[Gramsci]

Bernier's 'miraculous' turnaround ...

Last 3 games: 0.975 save percentage

Shots per game: 40