Proposal: Johnson for Grigorenko+

[DFC]

Or we could just keep that "younger and better player" and not make this ridiculous trade in the first place. There are many, many, MANY far superior ways of getting under the cap than trading our best forward for peanuts.

He's trying to get Kucherov and Grigorenko together. I don't think getting TB under the cap has anything to do with it. Which is why this thread is kind of pointless.

 

[strictlyrandy]

...Um, no?

Boyle, in particular, would be an easy trade to make because he doesn't require expansion protection. The other two are quality defensemen. It's much more likely a case of Yzerman trying to get the best deal he can with Kucherov, which will then dictate which trade he needs to make. Yzerman himself has made comments to that effect.

It's not like TB has a bunch of untradeable assets and then Stamkos, Hedman and the Triplets. This is a pretty damn good team we're talking about. There are likely two contracts that can't be moved (Callahan and Filppula). After that, everything's an option. Johnson is way, way down on that list of options.

If that were the case, one of them would already be traded and Kucherov would be signed. As it stands, TB can't afford Kucherov right now. If they could easily trade one of those guys, they would have done it already. Especially to make room for Kucherov.

 

[DFC]

If that were the case, one of them would already be traded and Kucherov would be signed. As it stands, TB can't afford Kucherov right now. If they could easily trade one of those guys, they would have done it already. Especially to make room for Kucherov.

I repeat: ...um no?

A GM as methodical as Yzerman doesn't just throw "whoever" overboard and give Kucherov whatever he wants. Once Kucherov is signed, Yzerman will make a move to get the team under the cap. He's actually STATED this (and Yzerman typically states nothing). Who gets moved depends on how big the contract is.

 

[Kshahdoo]

I repeat: ...um no?

A GM as methodical as Yzerman doesn't just throw "whoever" overboard and give Kucherov whatever he wants. Once Kucherov is signed, Yzerman will make a move to get the team under the cap. He's actually STATED this (and Yzerman typically states nothing). Who gets moved depends on how big the contract is.

The season will start in a few days, and Tampa still has no space for Kucherov. Nobody helps Tampa to get rid of its garbage. Chicago had to trade Terravainen to get more space, and Tampa will have to do something similar.

 

[sayheykid]

Nobody helps Tampa to get rid of its garbage.

Boyle, Garrison and Coburn are garbage now.

Never change, HFBoards.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Boyle, Garrison and Coburn are garbage now.

Never change, HFBoards.

They probably are, considering nobody takes them.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Boyle, Garrison and Coburn are garbage now.

Never change, HFBoards.

And someone on HF jumps to a conclusion that was quite obviously not what was meant.

The Bolts are in a bad situation. If they sign Kucherov to a big contract and are over the cap, this close to the start of the season, other GMs are going to know that and are going to try to extract something in return for helping Tampa avoid being salary cap non-compliant. Whether that's getting Boyle, Garrison or Coburn for pennies on the dollar, or the Bolts adding something to them to get a decent return, remains to be seen.

 

[sayheykid]

They probably are, considering nobody takes them.

Absolutely. Clearly the dealings of an NHL front office are binary in nature. That's definitely the only possible option here.

 

[DFC]

And someone on HF jumps to a conclusion that was quite obviously not what was meant.

The Bolts are in a bad situation. If they sign Kucherov to a big contract and are over the cap, this close to the start of the season, other GMs are going to know that and are going to try to extract something in return for helping Tampa avoid being salary cap non-compliant. Whether that's getting Boyle, Garrison or Coburn for pennies on the dollar, or the Bolts adding something to them to get a decent return, remains to be seen.

That actually is what he meant.

TB has valuable assets beyond the Triplets and Stamkos. Yzerman doesn't rush into anything. ANYTHING. So it's not at all out of form for him to be letting this go right down to the wire. It's kind of what he does.

We need to make a move, yeah. But we don't need all that much money. If Yzerman can get a return on Bishop, he'll probably pull that trigger, because the team believes Vasilevskiy is the long-term goalie anyway (Personally, I think that's a mistake). If not, it's unlikely he's going to panic and ship out a core piece, when he can find the needed $ by trading a player we can more easily replace.

Garrison and Boyle seem like the main candidates. Would we have to sell them for less than they're worth? Probably. But we'd be left with a much better team than if we were to deal a player like Johnson.

 

[Muffin]

Or we could just keep that "younger and better player" and not make this ridiculous trade in the first place. There are many, many, MANY far superior ways of getting under the cap than trading our best forward for peanuts.

TIL 30 Goal scoring Matt Duchene = Peanuts.

 

[strictlyrandy]

I repeat: ...um no?

A GM as methodical as Yzerman doesn't just throw "whoever" overboard and give Kucherov whatever he wants. Once Kucherov is signed, Yzerman will make a move to get the team under the cap. He's actually STATED this (and Yzerman typically states nothing). Who gets moved depends on how big the contract is.

TB doesn't have the cap available right now to sign Kucherov. If they did, Yzerman would have signed him already.

You're missing the point entirely. TB will have to move a player to get Kucherov signed. The space they get from Bishop being gone next year won't be enough to re-sign Palat, Drouin, and Johnson. One of those 3 is likely to go.

Again. If Tampa Bay could afford to re-sign Kucherov right now. He'd have a contract right now.

He doesn't though.

 

[DFC]

TB doesn't have the cap available right now to sign Kucherov. If they did, Yzerman would have signed him already.

You're missing the point entirely. TB will have to move a player to get Kucherov signed. The space they get from Bishop being gone next year won't be enough to re-sign Palat, Drouin, and Johnson. One of those 3 is likely to go.

Again. If Tampa Bay could afford to re-sign Kucherov right now. He'd have a contract right now.

He doesn't though.

No one's saying they have the cap space now. But, even if they are forced to lose one of Johnson, Drouin, or Palat NEXT year, why does that mean we should ship one of them off now? When we can get the space we need by trading lesser players?

The idea that if we "could" move someone like Boyle, it would already have been done, just completely neglects Yzerman's history. I doubt there's a more patient GM in the league (see: Drouin, Stamkos, and rumor has it he only traded MSL after NYR threw in an extra 1st rounder). So just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's not the most likely outcome.

 

[strictlyrandy]

No one's saying they have the cap space now. But, even if they are forced to lose one of Johnson, Drouin, or Palat NEXT year, why does that mean we should ship one of them off now? When we can get the space we need by trading lesser players?

The idea that if we "could" move someone like Boyle, it would already have been done, just completely neglects Yzerman's history. I doubt there's a more patient GM in the league (see: Drouin, Stamkos, and rumor has it he only traded MSL after NYR threw in an extra 1st rounder). So just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's not the most likely outcome.

The season starts in less than 2 weeks. Camp is going on right now. If this were August or July..Not a big deal. One would think signing a guy like Kucherov would be a priority. One would also think that in order to make space for Kucherov, a lesser player would have been gone already.

Plain and simple, if Yzerman could have done it...he would have already.

He hasn't. Proof is in the pudding. You can talk about his plan all you want. Reality is he hasn't done what you claim is so easy and Kucherov isn't under contract.

You literally can't argue or spin this any other way with the season a week and a half or so away. There is no "wait it out" anymore.

 

[DFC]

The season starts in less than 2 weeks. Camp is going on right now. If this were August or July..Not a big deal. One would think signing a guy like Kucherov would be a priority. One would also think that in order to make space for Kucherov, a lesser player would have been gone already.

Plain and simple, if Yzerman could have done it...he would have already.

He hasn't. Proof is in the pudding. You can talk about his plan all you want. Reality is he hasn't done what you claim is so easy and Kucherov isn't under contract.

You literally can't argue or spin this any other way with the season a week and a half or so away. There is no "wait it out" anymore.

All I can say is welcome to the world of Steve Yzerman. He very likely spent the last three months trying to trade Val Filppula, juuuuuuuust in case it's possible (it isn't). But nobody exhausts an option like Yzerman.

Why you don't think anyone would want Brian Boyle is beyond me. Or Jason Garrison. But Yzerman won't make a move like that until he absolutely has to. Again, he's stated that the plan is to get Kucherov under contract and THEN make the needed move. Which means he probably isn't even working on a trade until he finds out how much money he needs to make it.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

All I can say is welcome to the world of Steve Yzerman. He very likely spent the last three months trying to trade Val Filppula, juuuuuuuust in case it's possible (it isn't). But nobody exhausts an option like Yzerman.

Why you don't think anyone would want Brian Boyle is beyond me. Or Jason Garrison. But Yzerman won't make a move like that until he absolutely has to. Again, he's stated that the plan is to get Kucherov under contract and THEN make the needed move. Which means he probably isn't even working on a trade until he finds out how much money he needs to make it.

at this stage, if yzerman doesn't have a good idea of how much it will take to get the name on the dotted line, he's been doing a very bad job in negotiations.

 

[CupsOverCash]

at this stage, if yzerman doesn't have a good idea of how much it will take to get the name on the dotted line, he's been doing a very bad job in negotiations.

I'm sure he knows. If he didn't know then it's worse than we thought. Meaning Kuch has no intention of playing here because he wouldn't be letting his GM know how much it's going to take. But this is a negotiation. Nothing is final until the dotted line is signed. From SYs pov perhaps he has a number he wants it at and then Kuch has his. It hasn't happened yet because the two disagree. Who will budge first? SY doesn't seem to do that. I'm sure he will stick to his number and let this drag on until Kuch gets closer to what will help the team stay together. With SY it's always been about the team. Not about one particular guy. Or Stamkos would have gotten extended a long time ago and for more money. Same with Hedman. There's a big picture here that's going to have to happen in my opinion and Kuch is going to have to spread some love to his other triplets. Maybe he will be the one that's on his way out.

 

[Volodya Krutov]

The season starts in less than 2 weeks. Camp is going on right now. If this were August or July..Not a big deal. One would think signing a guy like Kucherov would be a priority. One would also think that in order to make space for Kucherov, a lesser player would have been gone already.

Plain and simple, if Yzerman could have done it...he would have already.

He hasn't. Proof is in the pudding. You can talk about his plan all you want. Reality is he hasn't done what you claim is so easy and Kucherov isn't under contract.

You literally can't argue or spin this any other way with the season a week and a half or so away. There is no "wait it out" anymore.

They probably are, considering nobody takes them.

The assumption on this thread is getting ridiculous.

 

[strictlyrandy]

The assumption on this thread is getting ridiculous.

What assumption?
Kucherov doesn't have a deal. TB can't afford him without moving some space first. If Yzerman could sign Kucherov now...Kucherov would be signed now. Season is starting soon, it's crunch time.

None of these are assumptions.

 

[Stuzchuk]

Avs have pretty much no cap and don't need a center already having Duchene and Mackinnon.

Also Grigs would be a very weird player to target if you were planning to move a player of Johnsons caliber.

Also no to mention TBL are going all in this season and have decided to worry about the cap when it comes. Its why they resigned both Stammer and Killorn and didn't trade Bishop when they had the chance.

the bolded part isnt true

McKenzie at the draft and a friend of mine here who knows some ppl within the Flames organisation have stated that the Flames and Lightning have agreed to a deal for Bishop, the only thing the prevented the deal was that the Flames could not agree to Bishop's terms on a new contract

 

[DFC]

What assumption?
Kucherov doesn't have a deal. TB can't afford him without moving some space first. If Yzerman could sign Kucherov now...Kucherov would be signed now. Season is starting soon, it's crunch time.

None of these are assumptions.

Everybody knows this. He's talking about the assumption that we "have" to deal a core piece to make room for the contract. Which isn't remotely true.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Everybody knows this. He's talking about the assumption that we "have" to deal a core piece to make room for the contract. Which isn't remotely true.

Assuming Kucherov wants around $7m per year, the Bolts need to clear up roughly $1.5m in space (I'd think closer to $2m, so they have a little wiggle room).

Who do you propose they could move to clear up that space that other teams would want? Coburn, Garrison, Boyle are obvious choices. But, moving them is a short term solution.

As of right now, the Bolts have roughly $18m in cap space for next season. If they move Boyle to make space to give Kucherov $7m, they'll have $11m to give Johnson, Palat, Drouin, Sustr, Nesterov and Koekkoek raises, sign a backup G, and pay Boyle's replacement. I'm not sure how they are going to make that work, especially if Drouin has a monster year and demands the same contract Kucherov gets.

Moving Garrison or Coburn doesn't make things any easier, especially considering they both have NTCs. And who knows if either of them will even accept a trade to any of the teams with the cap space for a pure futures trade.

On the other hand, moving Johnson for pure futures (New Jersey?) gives them cap space this year, and reduces the number of people needing raises for next year. He'll also probably return a better package of futures than a 31 year old Boyle. It seems like the smartest play for Yzerman, but maybe he has something up his sleeve that no one sees coming. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Assuming Kucherov wants around $7m per year, the Bolts need to clear up roughly $1.5m in space (I'd think closer to $2m, so they have a little wiggle room).

Who do you propose they could move to clear up that space that other teams would want? Coburn, Garrison, Boyle are obvious choices. But, moving them is a short term solution.

As of right now, the Bolts have roughly $18m in cap space for next season. If they move Boyle to make space to give Kucherov $7m, they'll have $11m to give Johnson, Palat, Drouin, Sustr, Nesterov and Koekkoek raises, sign a backup G, and pay Boyle's replacement. I'm not sure how they are going to make that work, especially if Drouin has a monster year and demands the same contract Kucherov gets.

Moving Garrison or Coburn doesn't make things any easier, especially considering they both have NTCs. And who knows if either of them will even accept a trade to any of the teams with the cap space for a pure futures trade.

On the other hand, moving Johnson for pure futures (New Jersey?) gives them cap space this year, and reduces the number of people needing raises for next year. He'll also probably return a better package of futures than a 31 year old Boyle. It seems like the smartest play for Yzerman, but maybe he has something up his sleeve that no one sees coming. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

He's not going to move Johnson now. This team is trying to win a cup this year. He will try to move somebody who won't hurt our chances too much, sign Kuch and then worry about shedding more salary next year.

 

[FinnLightning26]

He's not going to move Johnson now. This team is trying to win a cup this year. He will try to move somebody who won't hurt our chances too much, sign Kuch and then worry about shedding more salary next year.

This. Moving Johnson greatly diminishes our chances of winning the Cup. Johnson has been an integral part in the playoffs for us.

 

[DFC]

Assuming Kucherov wants around $7m per year, the Bolts need to clear up roughly $1.5m in space (I'd think closer to $2m, so they have a little wiggle room).

Who do you propose they could move to clear up that space that other teams would want? Coburn, Garrison, Boyle are obvious choices. But, moving them is a short term solution.

As of right now, the Bolts have roughly $18m in cap space for next season. If they move Boyle to make space to give Kucherov $7m, they'll have $11m to give Johnson, Palat, Drouin, Sustr, Nesterov and Koekkoek raises, sign a backup G, and pay Boyle's replacement. I'm not sure how they are going to make that work, especially if Drouin has a monster year and demands the same contract Kucherov gets.

Moving Garrison or Coburn doesn't make things any easier, especially considering they both have NTCs. And who knows if either of them will even accept a trade to any of the teams with the cap space for a pure futures trade.

On the other hand, moving Johnson for pure futures (New Jersey?) gives them cap space this year, and reduces the number of people needing raises for next year. He'll also probably return a better package of futures than a 31 year old Boyle. It seems like the smartest play for Yzerman, but maybe he has something up his sleeve that no one sees coming. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Why would we try to solve next year's problems this year? That's like cutting off your own finger because you know you MIGHT have to get it amputated next year.

We have money coming off the books next year, and a lot can happen in an NHL season (i.e. bounceback seasons, making untradeable contracts tradeable, and/or buyouts). There's no reason to hit the panic button and trade away a piece that could be key to a cup run before we absolutely have to. Regardless of what "futures" he might bring.

The guy I'm looking at is Brian Boyle. He gives us the Kucherov money, he's going to walk at the end of the year anyway, and C is by far our deepest position.

 

[garmonbozia]

No one's saying they have the cap space now. But, even if they are forced to lose one of Johnson, Drouin, or Palat NEXT year, why does that mean we should ship one of them off now? When we can get the space we need by trading lesser players?

The idea that if we "could" move someone like Boyle, it would already have been done, just completely neglects Yzerman's history. I doubt there's a more patient GM in the league (see: Drouin, Stamkos, and rumor has it he only traded MSL after NYR threw in an extra 1st rounder). So just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's not the most likely outcome.

The season starts in less than 2 weeks. Camp is going on right now. If this were August or July..Not a big deal. One would think signing a guy like Kucherov would be a priority. One would also think that in order to make space for Kucherov, a lesser player would have been gone already.

Plain and simple, if Yzerman could have done it...he would have already.

He hasn't. Proof is in the pudding. You can talk about his plan all you want. Reality is he hasn't done what you claim is so easy and Kucherov isn't under contract.

You literally can't argue or spin this any other way with the season a week and a half or so away. There is no "wait it out" anymore.

I am saying the Lightning have the cap space now to re-sign Kucherov.

$5,547,449 left with 12 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goalies.
Add Kucherov at $7 Million, now over the cap by $1,452,551 with 13F, 7D, 2G.
Send down waiver exempt Drouin and Koekkoek day before the season starts, this clears $1,788,334 leaving a roster of 12F, 6D, 2G that is cap compliant with $335,783 to spare.
Put Callahan on LTIR day one and recall Drouin and Koekkoek.
Send more expendable assets down when Cally is ready to return, oddly this should save a little more than the Drouin+Koekkoek combo did that got us cap compliant to start the season. The only real risk being someone like Nesterov, Paquette, and/or Condra might get claimed...minorly affecting overall depth.

It would tax the rainy day fund and limit how often the Lightning could carry a 21st skater on the roster, but, if Yzerman wants to, he can re-sign Kucherov to what most consider a fair deal...right now. That he is willing (and able) to "wait it out" says he knows the value of every single dollar between his best offer to Kucherov so far and his agent's best counter. I am confident a fair deal gets done soon.

As for the original proposal, no thanks. Johnson isn't available. Colorado wouldn't want to give up big enough +.

I'm not convinced Gusev comes to the NHL before Grigorenko reaches unrestricted free agency. Less convinced that both ever become 1st line NHLers like Kucherov already is. Maybe they'll tap some nostalgic magic in tournament play someday, but, I don't see a reunion in the NHL in their future.