John Tortorella Named (Part Time) Head Coach Discussion

[Appleyard]

I'm not doing the whole thing, but I do find it funny how in general current stars get underrated in a historical sense while good secondary players who have been retired for a while get hand-waved as absolutely nothing. Fredrik Modin and Ruslan Fedotenko were damn fine players in their own right. Dan Boyle was fantastic. Pavel Kubina was a good Defenseman at one point. We just remember the end of the line here.

Dan Boyle had 3x top 6 Norris seasons FFS aha.

And he was the #3 on that Cup Winner... Darryl Sydor and Pavel Kubina alongside Dan Boyle were all top pairing calibre Dmen across entire primes who has seasons where were legit #1s.

Brad Lukowich and Jassen Cullimore were their #6 and #7 and both got Norris votes over their careers... and were both really #4 Dmen at that point. Their defence was stacked.

They had 2x x1 C's in Richards and Lecavalier...

St. Louis and Andreychuk are both HHoF wingers.
Modin was one of the premier 2-way wingers in the league from 1999 to the lockout. Basically a ~65 point winger in todays scoring climate with high-end D.
Stillman was also a legit 1st line winger for ~10 years averaging 60 points a year in a low scoring era.

As such, for their time they had 2x 1st lines really.
Hence why in the playoffs they basically rolled 3 lines... they were so stacked up top and on the back-end.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not doing the whole thing, but I do find it funny how in general current stars get underrated in a historical sense while good secondary players who have been retired for a while get hand-waved as absolutely nothing. Fredrik Modin and Ruslan Fedotenko were damn fine players in their own right. Dan Boyle was fantastic. Pavel Kubina was a good Defenseman at one point. We just remember the end of the line here.

But they weren't special talents (i.e. that would succeed with any HC).
They were the kind of players you develop.
And why the key to a rebuild isn't tanking, but finding value and developing players.

Modin #64, traded to TB for Cory Cross
Fedotenko, UFA, traded to TB with (2) 2nd rd picks for 1st rd pick
Boyle, UDFA, traded to TB for 5th rd pick
Kubina, #179

 

[BernieParent]

Cooper has said that his coaching philosophy is culture over strategy, and to “have one hell of a goalie.”

“He sets a high standard,” said Norris Trophy and Conn Smythe winner Victor Hedman. “We expect greatness every night. That’s what makes us successful as a group.”

“We went from the outhouse to the penthouse,” Cooper said. “I truly believe that you have to have failure before you have success. You wear the bumps, you wear the bruises, you wear the heartache. You wear it on your sleeve. It keeps you up. It also drives you. We were not going to be denied.

'One of the best coaches ever': How the Lightning's patience with Jon Cooper paid off​

It's been eight years since Cooper felt "shock" upon accepting the job as Tampa Bay's coach.
theathletic.com

“He’s just got a great way of communicating things in layman’s terms, not trying to get too caught up in analyzing things,” defenseman Ryan McDonagh said. . . . You can paint a picture black-and-white and be pretty specific and analyze things, but he does a great job of keeping that message positive and keeping the message coming in different directions.

“We know he’s going to set our team up for success when he’s breaking things down X’s and O’s. Ninety percent of the time though, it’s about our attitude and mindset.”

Stamkos said. “He expects everyone in the room to do their job. The accountability is huge from the coaching staff to the players, and from the players to the players.

https://www.tampabay.com/sports/lig...e-motivates-he-delegates-mostly-he-just-wins/
"Hockey's just different," Cooper will say later tonight over his plastic cup of Cabernet Sauvignon. "You can't structurally draw up a play for a puck that is chipped off the glass. You are dependent on guys following the system. The game happens so fast that you need a structure in place, and players have to buy into the system. Because if guys go rogue, there are so many moving parts that the whole thing breaks down.

 

[Curufinwe]

Dan Boyle had 3x top 6 Norris seasons FFS aha.

And he was the #3 on that Cup Winner... Darryl Sydor and Pavel Kubina alongside Dan Boyle were all top pairing calibre Dmen across entire primes who has seasons where were legit #1s.

Brad Lukowich and Jassen Cullimore were their #6 and #7 and both got Norris votes over their careers... and were both really #4 Dmen at that point. Their defence was stacked.

They had 2x x1 C's in Richards and Lecavalier...

St. Louis and Andreychuk are both HHoF wingers.
Modin was one of the premier 2-way wingers in the league from 1999 to the lockout. Basically a ~65 point winger in todays scoring climate with high-end D.
Stillman was also a legit 1st line winger for ~10 years averaging 60 points a year in a low scoring era.

As such, for their time they had 2x 1st lines really.
Hence why in the playoffs they basically rolled 3 lines... they were so stacked up top and on the back-end.

It's the type of team no coach gets anymore because of the salary cap.

And they still only won a Cup because Desjardins' son broke Eric's arm playing catch.

 

[Appleyard]

But they weren't special talents (i.e. that would succeed with any HC).
They were the kind of players you develop.
And why the key to a rebuild isn't tanking, but finding value and developing players.

Modin #64, traded to TB for Cory Cross
Fedotenko, UFA, traded to TB with (2) 2nd rd picks for 1st rd pick
Boyle, UDFA, traded to TB for 5th rd pick
Kubina, #179

Modin was a 35-40 point player already in Toronto in the heart of the DPE at 23 years old getting 13 minutes a night. He was pretty much on trajectory already before Tampa.

He paced for 50 under Steve Ludzik before Torts came in... not exactly much development from that point tbh.

Fedotenko was exactly the same player in Tampa as he had been in Philly. He just got more ice time.

Kubina was a top pairing D at age 22 before Torts came in.

 

[deadhead]

Dan Boyle had 3x top 6 Norris seasons FFS aha.

And he was the #3 on that Cup Winner... Darryl Sydor and Pavel Kubina alongside Dan Boyle were all top pairing calibre Dmen across entire primes who has seasons where were legit #1s.

Brad Lukowich and Jassen Cullimore were their #6 and #7 and both got Norris votes over their careers... and were both really #4 Dmen at that point. Their defence was stacked.

They had 2x x1 C's in Richards and Lecavalier...

St. Louis and Andreychuk are both HHoF wingers.
Modin was one of the premier 2-way wingers in the league from 1999 to the lockout. Basically a ~65 point winger in todays scoring climate with high-end D.
Stillman was also a legit 1st line winger for ~10 years averaging 60 points a year in a low scoring era.

As such, for their time they had 2x 1st lines really.
Hence why in the playoffs they basically rolled 3 lines... they were so stacked up top and on the back-end.

Andreychuk was 40 years old on the TB Cup winner.
Stillman was picked up for one season for a 2nd rd pick
St Louis was UDFA obtained on waivers who didn't blossom until he played for Torts
Lukowich was obtained with a 2nd rd pick, 6th D-man in Dallas, 5th in TB, but only played 20+ minutes once in his career
Sydor was picked up for a 2nd rd pick, good D-man at the tail end of his career at 31.
Cullimore was picked up on waivers at 25 after bouncing around, became the #4 D-man at 26.

Again, team building - these weren't uber talents when they hit TB.

 

[Appleyard]

Andreychuk was 40 years old on the TB Cup winner.
Stillman was picked up for one season for a 2nd rd pick
St Louis was UDFA obtained on waivers who didn't blossom until he played for Torts
Lukowich was obtained with a 2nd rd pick, 6th D-man in Dallas, 5th in TB, but only played 20+ minutes once in his career
Sydor was picked up for a 2nd rd pick, good D-man at the tail end of his career at 31.
Cullimore was picked up on waivers at 25 after bouncing around, became the #4 D-man at 26.

Again, team building - these weren't uber talents when they hit TB.

Age and what acquired for is nothing to do with Torts, or how good a players they were.

They all succeeded in other places under other coaches.

It is indisputable that that team was absolutely stacked.

Not saying Torts did not help, he did... but indicating that he took a rag-tag bunch of 2nd rate guys and made them a winner is a a joke.

They were one of the best teams in the NHL on paper. Jay Feaster did an incredible job over a few years assembling it. And back then Torts was a perfect coach for DPE stylistically.

 

[deadhead]

I wouldn't call that team "stacked."

A solid team that played well together, but not in the same league in terms of top talent as the Pens, TB (Cooper) or the current Edmonton roster.

I mean the Pens had a lot of solid players like Dumoulin, Kessel, etc. to go with their superstars, and no, Vinnie ain't in the same league with Crosby. Same with TB which had players like Palat and Killorn and McDonagh to go with their stars.

I'd say the Torts TB team is more similar to the Blues or the Kings, a lot of good players but no transcendent superstars.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

John Tortorella isn’t and wasn’t the GM.

All teams must be belittled and put down except for the Hakstol, AV, Fletcher Flyers teams. They were the real great ones.

 

[Beef Invictus]

But they weren't special talents (i.e. that would succeed with any HC).
They were the kind of players you develop.
And why the key to a rebuild isn't tanking, but finding value and developing players.

Modin #64, traded to TB for Cory Cross
Fedotenko, UFA, traded to TB with (2) 2nd rd picks for 1st rd pick
Boyle, UDFA, traded to TB for 5th rd pick
Kubina, #179

Let's pretend for a second that this is true.


It doesn't matter now, does it? Tortorella has quit on his job. He isn't talking to players, he sure as shit isnt developing them. So what's the point of bringing this up when it doesn't apply now?

 

[kudymen]

Good to see the energy invested into making stuff up to defend Chuck Fletcher didn't simply magically disappear

 

[JojoTheWhale]

But they weren't special talents (i.e. that would succeed with any HC).
They were the kind of players you develop.
And why the key to a rebuild isn't tanking, but finding value and developing players.

Modin #64, traded to TB for Cory Cross
Fedotenko, UFA, traded to TB with (2) 2nd rd picks for 1st rd pick
Boyle, UDFA, traded to TB for 5th rd pick
Kubina, #179

I'm not talking about tanking.

Lecavalier, Richards, St Louis, and Boyle have to be above whatever talent line you're setting here. We don't have to agree on exactly where the line is, but those 4 aren't up for discussion.

Modin was already a very good Winger in Toronto in a lower Minute role. Excellent acquisition, but not a Tampa creation, let alone a Tortorella product. He even produced as expected given the expanded role under Torts' predecessor, Steve Ludzik.

Fedotenko's development arc I would hope we don't have to go over because it's miserable to remember.

Stillman had a career year when they won the Cup, but we're talking about a former 6OA heading into his Age 30 season who had already been very good for two other franchises.

That team was assembled spectacularly.

 

[Beef Invictus]

John Tortorella isn’t and wasn’t the GM.

All teams must be belittled and put down except for the Hakstol, AV, Fletcher Flyers teams. They were the real great ones.

It's especially weird to cite Pitt, considering the wizardry Sullivan had to pull to coach around massive injuries to major players, including to the guys dh bolded.

It's just a big fake lie of carefully selected misinformation dreamed up to fluff up a coach who is actively in the process of failing. Blatantly so. Hitching your wagon this thoroughly to Tortorella is like a fisherman passing the Titanic as it's going under and hopping on board for a free ride on a luxury liner.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cooper has said that his coaching philosophy is culture over strategy, and to “have one hell of a goalie.”

“He sets a high standard,” said Norris Trophy and Conn Smythe winner Victor Hedman. “We expect greatness every night. That’s what makes us successful as a group.”

“We went from the outhouse to the penthouse,” Cooper said. “I truly believe that you have to have failure before you have success. You wear the bumps, you wear the bruises, you wear the heartache. You wear it on your sleeve. It keeps you up. It also drives you. We were not going to be denied.

'One of the best coaches ever': How the Lightning's patience with Jon Cooper paid off​

It's been eight years since Cooper felt "shock" upon accepting the job as Tampa Bay's coach.
theathletic.com

“He’s just got a great way of communicating things in layman’s terms, not trying to get too caught up in analyzing things,” defenseman Ryan McDonagh said. . . . You can paint a picture black-and-white and be pretty specific and analyze things, but he does a great job of keeping that message positive and keeping the message coming in different directions.

“We know he’s going to set our team up for success when he’s breaking things down X’s and O’s. Ninety percent of the time though, it’s about our attitude and mindset.”

Stamkos said. “He expects everyone in the room to do their job. The accountability is huge from the coaching staff to the players, and from the players to the players.

Jon Cooper teaches. He motivates. He delegates. Mostly, he just wins.
"Hockey's just different," Cooper will say later tonight over his plastic cup of Cabernet Sauvignon. "You can't structurally draw up a play for a puck that is chipped off the glass. You are dependent on guys following the system. The game happens so fast that you need a structure in place, and players have to buy into the system. Because if guys go rogue, there are so many moving parts that the whole thing breaks down.

This is the kind of Cooper stuff I've been pondering as I read people claim that nice coaches never win in the past couple days.

 

[Curufinwe]

I wouldn't call that team "stacked."

Because you're terrible at talent evaluation and are desperately trying to come up with reasons why Torts is an all time great coach, even if you have to go back 20 years to do so.

Everyone knows your MO, dude. Give it a rest, already.

I'd say the Torts TB team is more similar to the Blues or the Kings, a lot of good players but no transcendent superstars.

St Louis lead the league in scoring by 7 points the year they won the Cup. Richards was 9th.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'm just happy to be discussing good forgotten players like Fredrik Modin. This is so much better than the usual.

Who's got a Jaroslav Spacek take? I'm here for it.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I’ll admit, I was looking forward to are the Avs a stacked team conversation but alas.

 

[Curufinwe]

It's especially weird to cite Pitt, considering the wizardry Sullivan had to pull to coach around massive injuries to major players, including to the guys dh bolded.

His top 6 defense for the 2nd Cup was the worst for any Cup winner I can remember.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[04hockey]

the Flyers current "status" is due to poor Drafts
including trading picks
go onto hockeydb and search

trades
FA signings
hiring bad GM's

NOT a first year coach

 

[FLYguy3911]

Modin had a bomb too. I always used to trade for him in NHL.

 

[Beef Invictus]

His top 6 defense for the 2nd Cup was the worst for any Cup winner I can remember.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That was the very definition of getting the utmost out of what you have and using the skillsets on your roster to their best potential. I can't figure out if that, or the Caps run were the best coaching jobs I've seen in the POs.

 

[kudymen]

Modin had a bomb too. I always used to trade for him in NHL.

Right? Often was my later pick in fantasy draft in NHL 2004 (ftw)

 

[dragonoffrost]

the Flyers current "status" is due to poor Drafts
including trading picks
go onto hockeydb and search

trades
FA signings
hiring bad GM's

NOT a first year coach

A first year coach with a track record of burning bridges in year 3 or 4.... Great thing to look forward to...

 

[freakydallas13]

great post season press conference, as the coach kept saying - "accountability"
Torts is a great hire, how he's getting all this criticism after only one year is bullshit

2 Jack Adams
Stanley Cup
most Flyers played hard every game.....hopefully Briere can get this guy some talent to win

John, maybe you should stop posting on HF and actually try coaching your team more often.

 

[kudymen]

John, maybe you should stop posting on HF and actually try coaching your team more often.

There’s no way this guy could win the Stanley cup in the cap era




Oh wait