John Tavares has taken that next step.

[Gallagbi]

His defensive positioning and being on the right side of the puck is noticeably better this year, but it shouldn't come at the extent it has for the offense he generates.


He's fighting the puck a lot less now than earlier in the year, but turnovers are still an issue. Needs to refocus on his current abilities and play to that instead of trying the same old thing.

 

[Antropovsky]

His defensive positioning and being on the right side of the puck is noticeably better this year, but it shouldn't come at the extent it has for the offense he generates.


He's fighting the puck a lot less now than earlier in the year, but turnovers are still an issue. Needs to refocus on his current abilities and play to that instead of trying the same old thing.

Thinking we should go back to the Hyman Tavares Marner line..... Tavares needs the help more than Matthews.

Matthews and Nylander have had good success together in the past, maybe even promote Spezza who has been very good this season.

 

[Gallagbi]

Thinking we should go back to the Hyman Tavares Marner line..... Tavares needs the help more than Matthews.

Matthews and Nylander have had good success together in the past, maybe even promote Spezza who has been very good this season.

That's where I'd go as well.

I think it's be better for all of the big 4, even if it's just short term. Simmonds can also play his natural side while Willy is a capable LWer.

Let Hyman role with Marner and Tavares, he gets to play a bigger role there and can muck it up with JT.

 

[Stephen]

He wouldn't be the first. Many great players in all sports had to adjust to win the grand prize

2. Do what is best for the team
It’s a well-known narrative in the hockey world that Yzerman was converted from a high scoring, human highlight reel into a two-way playoff warrior, either by Hall of Fame coach Scotty Bowman (see point 3) or by his own volition. In any case, the Red Wings’ success followed this transformation with Stanley Cups in 1997, 1998, and 2002.
“Keeping the goals against down has been the focus here and a key to doing that has been the ability of players such as Stevie Yzerman to change his style of play,” defenceman Bob Rouse said. “He had to buy into what the coaches were trying to implement and he’s done that, which is a big reason why we’ve been successful.”

Again salary was never part of this debate but keep trying shift

Salary has always been 100% part of the Tavares debate because the success or failure of Tavares will have a very large impact on whether this era can produce a championship. If he's giving us 2018-19 numbers over the bulk of the contract, we have a great chance. If he's in a gentle decline, it depends on how we can average down his salary (like with Simmonds, Spezza and Thornton) to make it work. If he has a sharp and dramatic decline, the Leafs will be severely challenged to upgrade other key positions.

The Steve Yzerman transformation narrative is fine as a general guideline, but the trouble in believing it as gospel here is Detroit probably could have just as easily won if Yzerman had stayed a 100 point scoring beast in 1997 and 1998. As we move later into the 2002 run, you're basically talking about a 37 year old with shredded knees trying to get every last ounce of hockey left in his body. John Tavares is 30 years old right now, so the decline and transformation is coming at an inconvenient time. Tavares has also never even approached Prime/Peak Yzerman, so that Yzerman transformation doesn't fit that well if Tavares is going to become a much diminished defensive specialist.

At this point, I'm just hoping he gives us 35 year old Patrice Bergeron hockey for the next few years, try to hit that championship goal.

 

[Stephen]

That's where I'd go as well.

I think it's be better for all of the big 4, even if it's just short term. Simmonds can also play his natural side while Willy is a capable LWer.

Let Hyman role with Marner and Tavares, he gets to play a bigger role there and can muck it up with JT.

The Big 4 should be mixed and matched with each other with a lot more frequency than has been done to this point. When Matthews and Marner aren't clicking there's no point in keeping that recipe together.

 

[DarenX]

Even-strength Goals Against - John Tavares.
Last season: 65 goals against in 63 games.
Last playoffs: 7 goals against in 5 games.
This season: 13 goals against in 32 games.

Personally I think John Tavares is putting a conscious effort into making sure he's on the right side of the puck.
His skating has never been a strength. Every time his line coughed up the puck, he wasn't able to get back into
the play. Now he's simply not taking the risk. It's cutting into his offense for sure, but it's vastly improved on
the goals against.

He is changing his game, he not only wants to retire in Toronto he wants to play through and win a cup or two. How is that possible? You nailed it. The guy has been playing shut down this season with a few noticeable flubs and it's like he is responsible for every goal against.

The guy has like 6 games this year as a minus.

This is where the coaching staff is pushing him to go, they are happy and so am I.

11mill? Yea maybe to much, but I don't think Johnny toronta is going anywhere and I also think he will be a good defensive center till his contract is up. He will be pretty close to a ppg guy through his tenure.

 

[DarenX]

His defensive positioning and being on the right side of the puck is noticeably better this year, but it shouldn't come at the extent it has for the offense he generates.


He's fighting the puck a lot less now than earlier in the year, but turnovers are still an issue. Needs to refocus on his current abilities and play to that instead of trying the same old thing.

He is doing everything fine, he has some bad luck this year but if he was scoring at regular percentage he would be one of our best guys this year in everyone's eyes.

 

[hotpaws]

AM with MM and Tavares

I'd keep the Engvall with Mik-Hyman line together

then build a line around Willie , try a combination between Simmonds-Kerfoot-Thornton-Gally

Willie's line we could shelter to a certain extent and since Tavares isn't getting any quicker and this is his 2nd sub par season so why not experiment a little now since we have a good cushion to the 5th place team .

 

[Throw More Waffles]

He is changing his game, he not only wants to retire in Toronto he wants to play through and win a cup or two. How is that possible? You nailed it. The guy has been playing shut down this season with a few noticeable flubs and it's like he is responsible for every goal against.

The guy has like 6 games this year as a minus.

This is where the coaching staff is pushing him to go, they are happy and so am I.

11mill? Yea maybe to much, but I don't think Johnny toronta is going anywhere and I also think he will be a good defensive center till his contract is up. He will be pretty close to a ppg guy through his tenure.

If his goal was to change his game and be a 65 point defensive specialist, then he should have taken fair market value for such a player to return home (around 6-7 mil). As is, he's a burden to his "hometown team" and it's simply an unacceptable way to behave.

7 year contract:

Based on 82 game pace...
Year 1: 47 goals/88 points
Year 2: 33 goal/77 points
year 3 (thus far): 23 goals/68 points

4 more years.

I'm bewildered that anybody could look at that and be anything other than petrified.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

AM with MM and Tavares

I'd keep the Engvall with Mik-Hyman line together

then build a line around Willie , try a combination between Simmonds-Kerfoot-Thornton-Gally

Willie's line we could shelter to a certain extent and since Tavares isn't getting any quicker and this is his 2nd sub par season so why not experiment a little now since we have a good cushion to the 5th place team .

I like it. I'd include Spezza with the players to experiment on Nylanders line.

 

[saltming]

no idea what you think Yzerman has to do with Tavares and just because JT production has slid into the toilet 5 on 5 doesn't mean he changed his game just because he hasn't bled goals in a small sample size like he has his entire career

and no idea why you keep saying i'm shifting the goal posts when it's you who's desperately trying to ignore how his cap hit has affected the teams ability to add quality pieces in other areas

JT has ben a turnover machine this year so the idea that he's playing some safe game is absurd ,

this is a one off year where we play in a mediocre division where we should easily advance to the semi's and which also means we have an easier path to the cup than we would have normally but hey f*** that because it's more important to spew non sense on a hockey forum for shits and giggles

Your fist paragraph: you said unlikely he would change his playing style so I provided evedencr that players do and it's quite common for winning. You provided zero rebuttal.
Your second paragraph salary cap was your goal post shift which I called you out on in earlier replies that you would do it and you did and now are projecting said action on to me. It's comical and clinical all in one. But hey keep going.
Third paragraph: you have not provided any evidence that he is a turnover machine compared to the hundreds of other NHL players.
Your fourth paragraph could be true but also could be false but the coach said they team has bought into playing a complete defensive system which is reflected in JT's play so where there is smoke here is fire and I'm going to say your statement is false because you have no evedence just what you think. You say he is playing better defensive and it's a fluke whereas there is evidence to the contrary

 

[TMLAM34]

It’s pretty clear Tavares isn’t the dynamic player he once was. It’s unfortunate because he’s definitely not worth 11 million dollars but at the same time it’s not the end of the world either. He’s fine as the 2nd line center, he’ll just need wingers who can carry him unfortunately which isn’t what you’d normally want from a 11 million dollar player.

 

[saltming]

Salary has always been 100% part of the Tavares debate because the success or failure of Tavares will have a very large impact on whether this era can produce a championship. If he's giving us 2018-19 numbers over the bulk of the contract, we have a great chance. If he's in a gentle decline, it depends on how we can average down his salary (like with Simmonds, Spezza and Thornton) to make it work. If he has a sharp and dramatic decline, the Leafs will be severely challenged to upgrade other key positions.

The Steve Yzerman transformation narrative is fine as a general guideline, but the trouble in believing it as gospel here is Detroit probably could have just as easily won if Yzerman had stayed a 100 point scoring beast in 1997 and 1998. As we move later into the 2002 run, you're basically talking about a 37 year old with shredded knees trying to get every last ounce of hockey left in his body. John Tavares is 30 years old right now, so the decline and transformation is coming at an inconvenient time. Tavares has also never even approached Prime/Peak Yzerman, so that Yzerman transformation doesn't fit that well if Tavares is going to become a much diminished defensive specialist.

At this point, I'm just hoping he gives us 35 year old Patrice Bergeron hockey for the next few years, try to hit that championship goal.

Tavares salary was not something that I was debating nor was it part of the post I quoted, so if said poster wants use that to justify their post, it should have been in the original post.

The Yzerman model was in his opinion and the red wings organizations opinion the shift the team needed to win. They didn't do so much with him until he made the commitment to play differently. Having your star players play team hockey makes a winning team. And it does fit well because we are talking about a star player known for scoring changing their game to be more defensive to win. Seems pretty equivocal to me.
35 year old Bergeron hockey from JT wouls be amazing

 

[Twowingcantfly]

It is good to see JT working to improve his defensive play. I never did like this signing. A two way center is what this team needed then and more so now. Any center in the league would score 47 if they had Mitch playing for a contract on their line. Some of you say he played on a lousy teams down on the Island. I think it was the other way around.

 

[DarenX]

If his goal was to change his game and be a 65 point defensive specialist, then he should have taken fair market value for such a player to return home (around 6-7 mil). As is, he's a burden to his "hometown team" and it's simply an unacceptable way to behave.

7 year contract:

Based on 82 game pace...
Year 1: 47 goals/88 points
Year 2: 33 goal/77 points
year 3 (thus far): 23 goals/68 points

4 more years.

I'm bewildered that anybody could look at that and be anything other than petrified.

Petrified, not even a little. Covid screwed everything a little in terms of cap. While we have dubas, which i believe will be for the duration of his Tavares contract, he will not hinder. These guys know what they are doing. Mind you if there plan just does not work at all, it's a different story.

Changing his game... do you actually think he came out and said I'm changing my game?? This is where management is guiding him to go. Also if your going to use stats you have to take them all. With this extra boost in defensive play, if you use he normal shooting % he would be matching last year.

Taken that into consideration. Would you rather a center who is putting up 77 points while giving up 85 or 34 goals a season? This would be an improvement in my eyes.

Even first year with 88 points he had 74 against vs 68(77 adj. Shot%) points and 34 against...

I am also bewildered that some fans think one number over powers all the others.

Jt is a work horse, which is probably why management is directing him in this change, odds are with him to succeed, he may shit the bed but he ain't even close to it yet.

 

[DarenX]

Also for the record. I would not have signed jt to begin with. In a perfect world we could have spent that money on some great assets but there is also a good probability that we would have different problems with that.

He is here and he is not nearly as bad as everyone says. It's very manageable. Every team can shed fat, even TB... some more than others obviously haha

 

[6ix]

I’d strip the C off this monotone disappointment and give it right to Hyman when Hyman signs his extension.

 

[Stringer Bell]

Anyone else think it would be a real shame if Spezza can't hit 1000 points before retirement?

 

[Stephen]

Anyone else think it would be a real shame if Spezza can't hit 1000 points before retirement?

Really cheering for Vintage to get to 1000 points and win a Stanley Cup. Think he’ll need another 1.5 years beyond this season to get there with the point totals.

 

[colchar]

If his goal was to change his game and be a 65 point defensive specialist, then he should have taken fair market value for such a player to return home (around 6-7 mil). As is, he's a burden to his "hometown team" and it's simply an unacceptable way to behave.

Becoming a more all round player is an unacceptable way to behave? Sweet Jebus, what a load of shite.

7 year contract:

Based on 82 game pace...
Year 1: 47 goals/88 points
Year 2: 33 goal/77 points
year 3 (thus far): 23 goals/68 points

4 more years.

I'm bewildered that anybody could look at that and be anything other than petrified.

If that petrifies you then you either desperately need to grab some perspective, or get a life. Or maybe both.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Anyone else think it would be a real shame if Spezza can't hit 1000 points before retirement?

He looks like he can play for a few more years, he looks good to me out there

 

[Stephen]

If his goal was to change his game and be a 65 point defensive specialist, then he should have taken fair market value for such a player to return home (around 6-7 mil). As is, he's a burden to his "hometown team" and it's simply an unacceptable way to behave.

7 year contract:

Based on 82 game pace...
Year 1: 47 goals/88 points
Year 2: 33 goal/77 points
year 3 (thus far): 23 goals/68 points

4 more years.

I'm bewildered that anybody could look at that and be anything other than petrified.

If you scan around the league, virtually every team has terrible contracts that are bad for their cap management. You'll see a lot of teams with 2 or 3 guys with term who add up to something worse than Tavares who also don't give you very much. Look at Vancouver. Their cap structure is littered with junk and none of Pettersson, Hughes, Demko are signed for next season. That's a rebuild that's stalled before the core got out of their ELC years.

So far, Dubas has found a way to lure Ontario players home on lower league salaries to help smooth out that big cap hit, and we have a number of ELC contracts representing recent high picks, so it's not the end of the world, but we definitely need a lot more out of Tavares.

 

[darrylsittler27]

The NHL is about to lose $1 billion. The cap will come down. Tavares at $11 million becomes an issue next year, especially if they don't make any noise in the playoffs.

 

[flying v 604]

If you scan around the league, virtually every team has terrible contracts that are bad for their cap management. You'll see a lot of teams with 2 or 3 guys with term who add up to something worse than Tavares who also don't give you very much. Look at Vancouver. Their cap structure is littered with junk and none of Pettersson, Hughes, Demko are signed for next season. That's a rebuild that's stalled before the core got out of their ELC years.

So far, Dubas has found a way to lure Ontario players home on lower league salaries to help smooth out that big cap hit, and we have a number of ELC contracts representing recent high picks, so it's not the end of the world, but we definitely need a lot more out of Tavares.

Vancouver is nothing like the Taveres situation.
At no point did Benning have to give a 1st away just to sign his RFA.
The highest contract we have is 6 million which expires after next season.
Nucks have 60 million in cap space over the next 2 years leafs don't even have enough to sign Hyman and a goalie upgrade.
How can a 3-year rebuild stall when it's not even finished?
Besides one goal away from the conference finals last season and 7 points behind the leafs while one team rolling the other is blowing away.
Lots of games left for the leafs to slip out of contention still.
I don't get the logic of justifying a bad signing by trying to attack another teams situation, especially when your comparing an 11+ million contract with 4 full seasons compared to at most 1 full season. Wouldn't the Sabres, Sharks panthers offer better comparables? If you feel the need to slag.

 

[Stringer Bell]

Really cheering for Vintage to get to 1000 points and win a Stanley Cup. Think he’ll need another 1.5 years beyond this season to get there with the point totals.

He is the epitome of so close yet so far away based on how he is bound to produce as time goes on. Really hope he can get there.