Blue Jays Discussion: Joe Panik: the hero we deserve

[canucksfan]

Ugly scene in AAA baseball

 

[dredeye]

Ugly scene in AAA baseball

That is f***ing terrifying

 

[canucksfan]

That is f***ing terrifying

Yes, hopefully, he will be okay but it doesn't sound too good.

With the way players hit the ball so hard, I wonder if pitchers should wear some sort of protective gear around their heads.

 

[canucksfan]

 

[Canada4Gold]

Quinones 5 IP for Vancouver, 11 K's, 1 hit(HR), 2 ER, 3 BB

 

[canucksfan]

Quinones 5 IP for Vancouver, 11 K's, 1 hit(HR), 2 ER, 3 BB

He could be a quick riser

 

[phillipmike]

Falvey
3:01
Could I get Martin and Woods from the Jay for Jose Berrios?

Steve Adams
3:01
I doubt it, and I doubt the Twins are moving Berrios even if they don't claw back into the race.
3:02
I know Jon Morosi called Berrios a "name to watch for the Blue Jays" awhile ago, but that was ... bizarre? I mean, Berrios would be a "name to watch" for any pitching-hungry team if the Twins were actually going to move him. But even with Minnesota's struggles this year, the bulk of their core is controlled into 2022 (beyond in most cases), and they have tons of payroll flexibility this winter to spend in a deep free-agent class.

i wouldn’t give SWR or Martin for Berrios, let alone both.

Berrios lands a guy like Hiraldo or Lopez as centrepieces with other add ins.

 

[Discoverer]

i wouldn’t give SWR or Martin for Berrios, let alone both.

Berrios lands a guy like Hiraldo or Lopez as centrepieces with other add ins.

Hiraldo/Lopez is understating Berrios's value a bit... I would say 1.5 years of a solid 2-3 guy gets one of Martinez/SWR/Moreno as a centrepiece (similar to the Stroman deal). That's not to say I would give up any of those guys for him, but if the Twins decide to move him, I think he gets something like that.

But Martin? Ha, no. Not even close, let alone throwing one of the other Top 100 guys in as a "secondary" piece.

 

[dredeye]

Yes, hopefully, he will be okay but it doesn't sound too good.

With the way players hit the ball so hard, I wonder if pitchers should wear some sort of protective gear around their heads.

What could they wear that they can throw with? I’m surprised there aren’t more comebacker injuries for pitchers but this is clearly a rare instance

 

[theaub]

What could they wear that they can throw with? I’m surprised there aren’t more comebacker injuries for pitchers but this is clearly a rare instance

Skullcap but they weren't super popular when they came out a few years ago

 

[Bjindaho]

I really hate reading Ben Nicholson-Smith's articles.

Not only does he tend to imply insider information (which he rarely if ever has), but his opinions are usually either obvious or poorly founded.

While adding a bench bat is an obvious need, adding a lefty because he hits left is stupid (handedness =!= success vs opposite handedness). On top of that, while adding someone like a Michael A Taylor gives you positional flexibility, a decent (but not starting bat), good D, and a reasonable price, why would we ever pay for a starting calibre bat who doesn't really fit in.

He mentioned a lot of outfielders who would be 5th outfielders who can't play cf and aren't defensive upgrades.

Assuming a 4 man bench (not including Dh), i would hope for Biggio, Espinal, Kirk/McGuire, and either Tellez or our 4th OF (Taylor if we have to trade one of these guys for pitching or a legit starting 3B, which i fully expect we will)

 

[Discoverer]

I really hate reading Ben Nicholson-Smith's articles.

Not only does he tend to imply insider information (which he rarely if ever has), but his opinions are usually either obvious or poorly founded.

While adding a bench bat is an obvious need, adding a lefty because he hits left is stupid (handedness =!= success vs opposite handedness). On top of that, while adding someone like a Michael A Taylor gives you positional flexibility, a decent (but not starting bat), good D, and a reasonable price, why would we ever pay for a starting calibre bat who doesn't really fit in.

He mentioned a lot of outfielders who would be 5th outfielders who can't play cf and aren't defensive upgrades.

Assuming a 4 man bench (not including Dh), i would hope for Biggio, Espinal, Kirk/McGuire, and either Tellez or our 4th OF (Taylor if we have to trade one of these guys for pitching or a legit starting 3B, which i fully expect we will)

Jays vs. lefties: 108 wRC+
Jays vs. righties: 114 wRC+

Imagine looking at this team and thinking they need to specifically target guys who can hit righties?

 

[phillipmike]

Hiraldo/Lopez is understating Berrios's value a bit... I would say 1.5 years of a solid 2-3 guy gets one of Martinez/SWR/Moreno as a centrepiece (similar to the Stroman deal). That's not to say I would give up any of those guys for him, but if the Twins decide to move him, I think he gets something like that.

But Martin? Ha, no. Not even close, let alone throwing one of the other Top 100 guys in as a "secondary" piece.

I dont think it is. 1.5 years of Stroman got SWR and Kay, neither were top 100 guys. SWR was drafted out of the 2nd round with raw upside and a year later he was trade. Kay was a 1st round pick with a high floor and low ceiling in 2016 and traded in 2019.

An equivalent deal would be;
1 of Zeuch, Warmoth or a guy like Conine if we had him
1 of Kloffenstein, Van Eyk or a guy like Williams if we had him

Now we all know guys like Zeuch, Warmoth and Conine have less value than Kay so i think a player like Hiraldo/Lopez would be much better than a prospect like Kay and a guy like Van Eyk would be fair.

I wouldnt trade SWR or Moreno for 1.5 years of Berrios. I'm reluctant to deal Martinez too. Based on the Stroman deal, a Hiraldo/Lopez and Van Eyk/Frasso should be a good comparison imo. Neither of these guys are top 100 guys but Lopez is on the cusp as BA said and Hiraldo and Van Eyk could easily be one soon. Based on what Kay and SWR were in 2019; Lopez/Hiraldo and Van Eyk are more accomplished prospect in 2021 imo.

 

[hoc123]

I dont think it is. 1.5 years of Stroman got SWR and Kay, neither were top 100 guys. SWR was drafted out of the 2nd round with raw upside and a year later he was trade. Kay was a 1st round pick with a high floor and low ceiling in 2016 and traded in 2019.

An equivalent deal would be;
1 of Zeuch, Warmoth or a guy like Conine if we had him
1 of Kloffenstein, Van Eyk or a guy like Williams if we had him

Now we all know guys like Zeuch, Warmoth and Conine have less value than Kay so i think a player like Hiraldo/Lopez would be much better than a prospect like Kay and a guy like Van Eyk would be fair.

I wouldnt trade SWR or Moreno for 1.5 years of Berrios. I'm reluctant to deal Martinez too. Based on the Stroman deal, a Hiraldo/Lopez and Van Eyk/Frasso should be a good comparison imo. Neither of these guys are top 100 guys but Lopez is on the cusp as BA said and Hiraldo and Van Eyk could easily be one soon. Based on what Kay and SWR were in 2019; Lopez/Hiraldo and Van Eyk are more accomplished prospect in 2021 imo.

I'll push back on the idea that SWR wasn't a top 100 prospect. When the trade happened, he wasn't on any lists, but by the end of year he was almost unanimously a top 100 prospect. Unless six starts was the difference between him making those lists, it's more likely that prospect evaluators did not get a chance to really update his standing before the trade occurred.

 

[Discoverer]

Based on what Kay and SWR were in 2019; Lopez/Hiraldo and Van Eyk are more accomplished prospect in 2021 imo.

There's no way any of those guys is more accomplished than SWR was in 2019. A 48th overall pick with great K/BB numbers and a 2.5 FIP as an 18-year-old in 20 starts in full-season ball is just ridiculous. Fangraphs had him as a 45+, and most of us here argued at the time that he should have been a 50.

I like all of the guys you mentioned, but they're all a clear level or two below where SWR was as a prospect at the time.

 

[phillipmike]

There's no way any of those guys is more accomplished than SWR was in 2019. A 48th overall pick with great K/BB numbers and a 2.5 FIP as an 18-year-old in 20 starts in full-season ball is just ridiculous. Fangraphs had him as a 45+, and most of us here argued at the time that he should have been a 50.

I like all of the guys you mentioned, but they're all a clear level or two below where SWR was as a prospect at the time.

SWR had some good performance but that was 80 innings when he was SS through a good portion of his high school career. He was very raw.

I doubt he would have been a 50 in 2019. He was only a 50 preseason which is fair because Martin was a 55. Heck Manoah was 45+.

FG has Hiraldo as a 45 and Van Eyk as a 40+. Lopez is a 40 before the season and I bet he is at least a 45 now. I agree SWR had a higher ceiling than these guys but he also had a lot of variability with a bigger bust factor.

On their own a Hiraldo and Van Eyk may not have been better than SWR in 2019 but together they are comparable and possibly better than 2019 SWR and Kay, that’s I’ll I’m saying.

 

[phillipmike]

I'll push back on the idea that SWR wasn't a top 100 prospect. When the trade happened, he wasn't on any lists, but by the end of year he was almost unanimously a top 100 prospect. Unless six starts was the difference between him making those lists, it's more likely that prospect evaluators did not get a chance to really update his standing before the trade occurred.

That maybe true, but the fact was he wasn’t at the time of the trade. And the same goes for Lopez, he isn’t a top 100 but Law and BA have made notes that is approaching the top 100.

If we traded him before the list is updated, it would be the same situation.

 

[CatchyTune]

Pablo Lopez would be nice but can’t see the Marlins trading him with 4 years of control left. Sonny Gray would be my top target followed by Marquez and Duffy.

I dont know why Miami would trade a 25 year old stud with 4 years of control. If they did, it would take an arm and a leg.

 

[CatchyTune]

Ugly scene in AAA baseball

Yikes. that looked terrible. im not gonna link the video but its on youtube for those who want to see

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[hoc123]

That maybe true, but the fact was he wasn’t at the time of the trade. And the same goes for Lopez, he isn’t a top 100 but Law and BA have made notes that is approaching the top 100.

If we traded him before the list is updated, it would be the same situation.

The point I'm making is that while he might not have been a top 100 prospect at the time of the trade, the GM's involved likely viewed him as a top 100 prospect in terms of value.

 

[Dr.Funk]

 

[phillipmike]

The point I'm making is that while he might not have been a top 100 prospect at the time of the trade, the GM's involved likely viewed him as a top 100 prospect in terms of value.

Oh for sure. There is no denying that and it’s possible that a GM could view players like Lopez, Hiraldo and/or Van Eyk as top 100 guys or close to it.

I also look at it from the perspective that Berrios will likely command a deal similar to Stroman but it still should be less. Stroman was a better or much better player at the time of the trade depending which WAR you use;

Stroman: 13.3 bWAR or 15 fWAR in 789.2 innings
Berrios: 8.2 bWAR or 12.2 fWAR in 724 innings

 

[phillipmike]

Bo Bichette (129 career games played) has matched his father Dante (1704 career games played) in career bWAR at 5.6

 

[phillipmike]

This the first Shapiro/AA trade since AA became the GM of Atlanta?