Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (12-13 Part XIII)

[Huffer]

Not saying he will or should, but if Buff is traded at the draft, what would the return need to be (from Jets perspective)?

Personally I think it would be likely one of the best opportunities to get player(s) and picks or prospects.

If the Jets traded with Philly and grabbed a 1st (2013), Grossmann (or Coburn), Read and maybe Laughton - for Buff and 2nd rd pick would that work?

Grossmann ($3.5 mill cap hit) and Coburn ($4.5) are both signed for a few years. Read is a UFA after next year and looking for a raise. Laughton is a feisty, future 3rd line C - likely not much more. And 1st rd pick may be Top 10-12, and could be someone like Shinkaruk.

Would feel better if Read was under contract longer, but does that return sound reasonable?

Ya, would be nice. Thinking that's a deal breaker for the Flyers. Simmonds or Voracek. If they aren't included, is that a deal breaker for Jets?

Read had 24 goals last year and has 9 so far and has been injured a bit. He looks like a young 25+ goal guy, too. Bit small, but great shot.

I like Grossmann or Coburn as that shutdown LHD - paired with Bogo - or as a veteran guy for Trouba. Both have term on their contracts, but also limited No Trade deals.

Myself, If we are dealing Buff I want to get a surefire top 6 forward (C or RW) first. If we can't get that from Philly (Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier), then I would look to the other 28 teams in the league.

IF, I couldn't get that impact top 6 forward from another team, then I would consider something like this. Read would not be a piece I would want coming back for me in a Buff deal. He'll be 27 starting next season and will have exactly 1.5 quality seasons in the NHL. Never mind that he's a UFA after next season. I like Read, but Buff is an all-star top pairing D. We shouldn't have to "settle" here.

If you got all of that, 1st, Grossman (Coburn), Read, AND Laughton, well that's probably too much to say no to. I think that's probably too much when you look at what Burns returned (Even though he was a soon to be UFA). (1st round pick swap, top prospect, top 6 forward).

Really depends on where the Flyers 1st is too. If it's around the 10 range and guys like Nurse, Zadorov, or Risto are on the board they might just want to keep the pick.

 

[Stej]

Myself, If we are dealing Buff I want to get a surefire top 6 forward (C or RW) first. If we can't get that from Philly (Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier), then I would look to the other 28 teams in the league.

IF, I couldn't get that impact top 6 forward from another team, then I would consider something like this. Read would not be a piece I would want coming back for me in a Buff deal. He'll be 27 starting next season and will have exactly 1.5 quality seasons in the NHL. Never mind that he's a UFA after next season. I like Read, but Buff is an all-star top pairing D. We shouldn't have to "settle" here.

If you got all of that, 1st, Grossman (Coburn), Read, AND Laughton, well that's probably too much to say no to. I think that's probably too much when you look at what Burns returned (Even though he was a soon to be UFA). (1st round pick swap, top prospect, top 6 forward).

Really depends on where the Flyers 1st is too. If it's around the 10 range and guys like Nurse, Zadorov, or Risto are on the board they might just want to keep the pick.

I'm with you Huffer. I think we need more sure-fire top end talent, not more depth. If we're going to trade Buff in a quality for quantity deal, it better be overpay BIG TIME. I'd much prefer a quality for quality deal.

 

[CorgisPer60]

I'm with you Huffer. I think we need more sure-fire top end talent, not more depth. If we're going to trade Buff in a quality for quantity deal, it better be overpay BIG TIME. I'd much prefer a quality for quality deal.

If we're doing that, I'd sooner wait until the trade deadline next season. Buff's a huge game changer, and teams routinely overpay for talent for a playoff push.

 

[Stej]

If we're doing that, I'd sooner wait until the trade deadline next season. Buff's a huge game changer, and teams routinely overpay for talent for a playoff push.

By "doing that" do you mean trade quality for quantity? Because I would argue that the type of deal I'm proposing (quality for quality) almost never happens at the deadline. Those kinds of deals usually happen in the off season, don't they?

 

[Bob E]

Myself, If we are dealing Buff I want to get a surefire top 6 forward (C or RW) first. If we can't get that from Philly (Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier), then I would look to the other 28 teams in the league.

IF, I couldn't get that impact top 6 forward from another team, then I would consider something like this. Read would not be a piece I would want coming back for me in a Buff deal. He'll be 27 starting next season and will have exactly 1.5 quality seasons in the NHL. Never mind that he's a UFA after next season. I like Read, but Buff is an all-star top pairing D. We shouldn't have to "settle" here.

If you got all of that, 1st, Grossman (Coburn), Read, AND Laughton, well that's probably too much to say no to. I think that's probably too much when you look at what Burns returned (Even though he was a soon to be UFA). (1st round pick swap, top prospect, top 6 forward).

Really depends on where the Flyers 1st is too. If it's around the 10 range and guys like Nurse, Zadorov, or Risto are on the board they might just want to keep the pick.

All good points, Huff.

I'm thinking Nurse will be gone by then. Others, not sure. But, if Philly is in Top 10, they may keep that pick this year, sure.

Though they may want a top pairing dman, now, vs a potential top pairing dman in a few yrs. Buff would be more offensive than any dman other than Jones (maybe).

Wondering which other teams would want Buff and give up a top 6 forward ++ to get him.

 

[Bob E]

I'm with you Huffer. I think we need more sure-fire top end talent, not more depth. If we're going to trade Buff in a quality for quantity deal, it better be overpay BIG TIME. I'd much prefer a quality for quality deal.

With another top 1st, (ideally top 10) that player could turn out to be a high performer in a few years.

A player you can't trade for, as they are never available.

 

[Sweech]

All good points, Huff.

I'm thinking Nurse will be gone by then. Others, not sure. But, if Philly is in Top 10, they may keep that pick this year, sure.

Though they may want a top pairing dman, now, vs a potential top pairing dman in a few yrs. Buff would be more offensive than any dman other than Jones (maybe).

Wondering which other teams would want Buff and give up a top 6 forward ++ to get him.

Wouldn't break my heart. He's overrated.

 

[Huffer]

All good points, Huff.

I'm thinking Nurse will be gone by then. Others, not sure. But, if Philly is in Top 10, they may keep that pick this year, sure.

Though they may want a top pairing dman, now, vs a potential top pairing dman in a few yrs. Buff would be more offensive than any dman other than Jones (maybe).

Wondering which other teams would want Buff and give up a top 6 forward ++ to get him.

I really do hope that a team like Philly is interested. I don't know if it was a rumor without legs or a rumor with legs but we all did hear that the Flyers were interested in Buff weeks ago.

I would take your proposed deal in a heartbeat, but in all honesty I think it is more than we can get (based on some past deals). Both Richards and Carter returned a top prospect (Schenn and the 8th overall pick), and a top 6 roster player (Simmonds and Voracek). I think your deal was a 1st, two roster players (Grossman and Read), and a prospect (Laughton).

The Burns deal might be a good comparable as Burns was an all-star once prior to being traded (+), but was also a soon to be UFA in one year (-). That deal was a 1st (28th), + Setoguchi, + Coyle, for Burns and a 2nd in 2012.

If the Flyers 1st in 2013 was involved, that is much more valuable than the 1st the Wild got. So either the roster player, or prospect would have to be less than what the Wild got. Not to use revisionist facts, but Seto was 23, and had just put up 31, 20, and 22 goals. Voracek is probably more valuable than Seto was as a roster player, and Simmonds most likely as well if you add in the other things he brings.

Based on that if you could convince Holmgren that a 1st plus Voracek / Simmonds (no prospect) for Buff + 2nd deal was good then I think that would be a good deal for the Jets. If the combo of the lower pick, as well as Voracek and Simmonds being more valuable than Seto made not only the prospect portion (Coyle) unnecessary, but even required the Jets to add a bit I would probably do that as well.

I think another good combo for the Jets would be both Schenns for Buff + 2nd. One of those guys represents the 1st round pick and the other the roster player.

The only reason I don't like getting a guy like Read back in the deal is that Read to me isn't a guy you deal a guy like Buff for. I like Read, but he'll soon be 27 and will have 1.5 decent seasons in the league and will also be a UFA in a year. My thought is, IF chevy is willing to deal Buff, how many times in a GM's tenure does he have the ability to improve his team by dealing a player the caliber of a Buff? I don't think you use those kind of rare opportunities to get complementary pieces. If you get a tonne of those pieces maybe, but with 28 other teams in the league I would have to think one of them would give us an established, youngish, top 6 forward a la the Burns deal.

 

[Huffer]

Wouldn't break my heart. He's overrated.

Not saying you're wrong because I haven't seen much of him, it's funny reading all the draft threads on all the boards here. Some guys are loved more than others from board to board.

I have to say though, I haven't seen many, or anyone really that I can think of that didn't love Nurse.

Would love to hear your thoughts on him, but maybe we should do that in the draft thread?

 

[Bob E]

Wouldn't break my heart. He's overrated.

Agreed.

Many are giving his athletic blood lines far too much value, imo.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Agreed.

Many are giving his athletic blood lines far too much value, imo.

This is 100% the MOST overrated thing about the draft. Oh this guys father/brother/mother/grandfather/uncle whatever was a great NHLer or NBAer or Olympic athlete of whatever. Who cares. It does not effect that player in any way. Then we see teams draft a guy who goes 68 OHL games with 1g, 1a in the 2nd round simply since his name read "Staal". Absolutely stupid beyond belief. Looks like the Jets are going to be bit in the ass with this one too, getting caught up in the Sutter name...

 

[CorgisPer60]

This is 100% the MOST overrated thing about the draft. Oh this guys father/brother/mother/grandfather/uncle whatever was a great NHLer or NBAer or Olympic athlete of whatever. Who cares. It does not effect that player in any way. Then we see teams draft a guy who goes 68 OHL games with 1g, 1a in the 2nd round simply since his name read "Staal". Absolutely stupid beyond belief. Looks like the Jets are going to be bit in the ass with this one too, getting caught up in the Sutter name...

To be fair, I don't think anyone expected Sutter to have such a huge setback year after last year's pretty auspicious 2nd half of the season. I hope he rekindles what makes him successful.

 

[garret9]

To be fair, I don't think anyone expected Sutter to have such a huge setback year after last year's pretty auspicious 2nd half of the season. I hope he rekindles what makes him successful.

There were many who were suspicious he was worth a 2nd round.
Most of us at AIH were thinking 3rd-4th round talent.

 

[Stej]

I really do hope that a team like Philly is interested. I don't know if it was a rumor without legs or a rumor with legs but we all did hear that the Flyers were interested in Buff weeks ago.

I would take your proposed deal in a heartbeat, but in all honesty I think it is more than we can get (based on some past deals). Both Richards and Carter returned a top prospect (Schenn and the 8th overall pick), and a top 6 roster player (Simmonds and Voracek). I think your deal was a 1st, two roster players (Grossman and Read), and a prospect (Laughton).

The Burns deal might be a good comparable as Burns was an all-star once prior to being traded (+), but was also a soon to be UFA in one year (-). That deal was a 1st (28th), + Setoguchi, + Coyle, for Burns and a 2nd in 2012.

If the Flyers 1st in 2013 was involved, that is much more valuable than the 1st the Wild got. So either the roster player, or prospect would have to be less than what the Wild got. Not to use revisionist facts, but Seto was 23, and had just put up 31, 20, and 22 goals. Voracek is probably more valuable than Seto was as a roster player, and Simmonds most likely as well if you add in the other things he brings.

Based on that if you could convince Holmgren that a 1st plus Voracek / Simmonds (no prospect) for Buff + 2nd deal was good then I think that would be a good deal for the Jets. If the combo of the lower pick, as well as Voracek and Simmonds being more valuable than Seto made not only the prospect portion (Coyle) unnecessary, but even required the Jets to add a bit I would probably do that as well.

I think another good combo for the Jets would be both Schenns for Buff + 2nd. One of those guys represents the 1st round pick and the other the roster player.

The only reason I don't like getting a guy like Read back in the deal is that Read to me isn't a guy you deal a guy like Buff for. I like Read, but he'll soon be 27 and will have 1.5 decent seasons in the league and will also be a UFA in a year. My thought is, IF chevy is willing to deal Buff, how many times in a GM's tenure does he have the ability to improve his team by dealing a player the caliber of a Buff? I don't think you use those kind of rare opportunities to get complementary pieces. If you get a tonne of those pieces maybe, but with 28 other teams in the league I would have to think one of them would give us an established, youngish, top 6 forward a la the Burns deal.

I'm totally with you here. I would strongly consider Buff & 2nd for (Voracek or Simmonds) & 1st assuming the Flyers don't go on a massive run to end the season and devalue their draft pick significantly. I'd prefer Voracek to Simmonds only because I think he has a higher offensive ceiling but they are both valuable pieces.

If Buff is dealt, Philly makes the most sense. Eklund has been pimping this one forever and apparently his best NHL contacts are with the Flyers organization. Take that for whatever it's worth (maybe not much?).

 

[Duke749]

This is 100% the MOST overrated thing about the draft. Oh this guys father/brother/mother/grandfather/uncle whatever was a great NHLer or NBAer or Olympic athlete of whatever. Who cares. It does not effect that player in any way. Then we see teams draft a guy who goes 68 OHL games with 1g, 1a in the 2nd round simply since his name read "Staal". Absolutely stupid beyond belief. Looks like the Jets are going to be bit in the ass with this one too, getting caught up in the Sutter name...

Boy are you ever over critical.

 

[Huffer]

I'm totally with you here. I would strongly consider Buff & 2nd for (Voracek or Simmonds) & 1st assuming the Flyers don't go on a massive run to end the season and devalue their draft pick significantly. I'd prefer Voracek to Simmonds only because I think he has a higher offensive ceiling but they are both valuable pieces.

If Buff is dealt, Philly makes the most sense. Eklund has been pimping this one forever and apparently his best NHL contacts are with the Flyers organization. Take that for whatever it's worth (maybe not much?).

I'd take either. Tough to say no to Voracek's offensive upside, but I just love Simmonds physicality and his contract is insanely good. 6 more years at a little under 4 million a year!

 

[Stej]

I'd take either. Tough to say no to Voracek's offensive upside, but I just love Simmonds physicality and his contract is insanely good. 6 more years at a little under 4 million a year!

Very good point about the contract. Crazy deal.

 

[Wpgpage]

One of the rumors going around was the Flyers offered Couturier + Read + 1st for Yandle a deal like that (remove the 1st) for Buff I would do that in a second. Would give the Jets some awesome center depth going forward
Scheif
Couturier
Little?
Burmi
Lowery?
Slater

 

[Huffer]

One of the rumors going around was the Flyers offered Couturier + Read + 1st for Yandle a deal like that (remove the 1st) for Buff I would do that in a second. Would give the Jets some awesome center depth going forward
Scheif
Couturier
Little?
Burmi
Lowery?
Slater

Much rather have the 1st than Read. But why would we get less for Buff compared to Yandle?

 

[roosemoose]

I would take both Braydon and Luke Schenn since they are a package deal as well as a late first for Buff.

 

[Stej]

Not really crazy about Read or Couturier, although with the latter it may just be related to his draft position. I just don't get the hype when I watch Couturier. I didn't even notice him once last game.

 

[StronGeer]

Not really crazy about Read or Couturier, although with the latter it may just be related to his draft position. I just don't get the hype when I watch Couturier. I didn't even notice him once last game.

That would be awkward. Although we could get a real comparison because they would be in the same system, then switch lines halfway through the season. Put that debate to rest

 

[truck]

Not really crazy about Read or Couturier, although with the latter it may just be related to his draft position. I just don't get the hype when I watch Couturier. I didn't even notice him once last game.

Cooter is eating up the toughest minutes on the team. He is getting the roughest zone starts too.

He looks like he should be able to develop into a big time shutdown #2 to me.

Not really sure about where his offensive game will land, but I would bet it it gonna be 2nd line solid.

 

[Wpgpage]

Even if Cooter tops out as a 20/20 guy playing the level of competition he does he will be very valuable to a team. I'm a really big fan.

 

[Sweech]

Not saying you're wrong because I haven't seen much of him, it's funny reading all the draft threads on all the boards here. Some guys are loved more than others from board to board.

I have to say though, I haven't seen many, or anyone really that I can think of that didn't love Nurse.

Would love to hear your thoughts on him, but maybe we should do that in the draft thread?

He's been overrated really hard recently. I'd have to search through my posts, but at first when he was an unknown I was pumping him up, more as an early second/late first guy people should watch out for. He gained a ton of steam since then, but he's ridden too much momentum. He's a 20-30 guy in this draft, not top 10.

My top 3 for D are:
1. Jones
2. Pulock
3. Zadorov

The rest is a mix and Nurse is a part of that. It depends on what traits you're looking for.

The problem I have is that Nurse's traits are too overrated and the main one is "meanness". Nurse plays mean and surrounds it with an okay game. It seems to happen every year -- Gudbranson and Siemens are two very recent comparable players. Trouba was close, but he was actually good defensively. Strong backwards skating, good gap control, good decision making on poke check/body check are the things I look for. It's why I love Zadorov, he blows me away at how good he is at all of those. None of Gudbranson, Siemens, and Nurse (even Dumba to an extent) have a sufficient control of any of these things to impress me. They're decent defensively, but not great. The offensive upside isn't there either. What often deceives everyone is the athleticism, when a player is that athletic some scouts extrapolate that a good to great defensive/offensive game can be built off that. While it can, I find that's rarely the case. It's a lot of "tools and no toolbox". He tops out as a 3-4 to me, which isn't bad except he can just as easily become a 5-6. Plus there are plenty of guys with #1-2 d-man potentials.