Post-Game Talk: Jets are a mess, lose 6-3

[cbcwpg]

I think it would be a mistake to move on Helly. That would insure us to likely years and years of failure

It is the one spot you don't move on when you got a proven commodity. Look around the league teams don't move goalies once they have them. LA kept an aging Quick for ever. The only goalies I can think of that moved where Fleury and Murray from Pittsburgh. Fleury was cap casualty twice and Murray was moved for nothing

The more likely scenario is Helly bounces back next year.

Really a new coach with a new direction is required. The players then have to buy in and you move from there. Dumping Helly is stupid IMO

If you trade Helly for another goalie, what's the point? You aren't going to get anyone better IMO, or anyone a team is willing to trade for.

The only interesting trade would be to move Helly for a top #1 D man or #1 forward. But, the only way you can do that is if you had someone in the system to replace Helly. Who would that be?

We may not be getting Vezina Helly this season, but he's still our best goalie and gives us the best chance to win. Who else do we have? I said I wanted Comrie to play more, but that's because the season is over and we need to know if Comrie is good enough to keep as a backup going forward.

This team is a mess, but I don't blame Helly for that.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Revisiting this again.
Updated.

I know there’s lots of holes that we can poke into +- stats but over the long term they can show trends.
This is Scheifele’s +- position on the team since his first full year compared to his teammates.
2nd
2nd
1st
1st
1st
6th
11th
23rd
28th
Last (by a mile)

That might be the one use of +/- I can't argue with.
It certainly seems to say something - and the eye test matches it pretty well.

 

[GeorgeJETson]

*pops in*
*sees thread title*
*reads the first page*
*slowly backs away from HFBoards*
*pops back out*

 

[Turin]

Was this team too stingy to bring in a real coach? Weird season to just punt on.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

We haven't played an offensive brand of hockey in years now. This team has been incredibly low event for 3 years now.

I wouldn't call 5 straight goals against in less than half a game (or 6 in < 2/3 of a game) low event.

People are thrashing about looking for the right words to describe and categorize what they are seeing. I don't think it is that easy to pigeon hole in hockey terms. We have a team that doesn't appear to listen to its (interim) coach and that is a defeated bunch, very fragile. They seem to give up pretty easily at the first sign of adversity.

I don't think terms like high event, low event, offensive, defensive, fast paced, hard on the puck, etc have any place in the discussion. They are none of those. Just a rudderless ship floundering in heavy seas.

 

[surixon]

I wouldn't call 5 straight goals against in less than half a game (or 6 in < 2/3 of a game) low event.

People are thrashing about looking for the right words to describe and categorize what they are seeing. I don't think it is that easy to pigeon hole in hockey terms. We have a team that doesn't appear to listen to its (interim) coach and that is a defeated bunch, very fragile. They seem to give up pretty easily at the first sign of adversity.

I don't think terms like high event, low event, offensive, defensive, fast paced, hard on the puck, etc have any place in the discussion. They are none of those. Just a rudderless ship floundering in heavy seas.

Oh lately there is no discernable scheme. I was more referring to the prior two years where it was pretty obvious we were playing risk-free bunker hockey.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yes the entire coaching staff has to go but if i was a new coach i would demand to have my own assistants . It's almost like Chevy didn't feel like doing his job by going and getting a new coach, just kept everything the same except for Lowry moving up .

I'll give Chevy the benefit of the doubt - for now. I assume he didn't really like any of the candidates who were available at the time. He either has 1 or more in mind or he is waiting to see who becomes available.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Not a plus minus guy but PLD plus two and Scheif/wheels -4 is egregious

So ...... You are a +/- guy. You just pretend not to be.

 

[Wedgeden]

This game last night in a nutshell.

 

[bustamente]

Now I'm not advocating to trade Helle, but this team is not ready to contend as currently construction both on and off the ice, if they plan a rebuild they probably wont be much better next year and might make strides the following year. Helle has 2 years remaining on his contract then UFA and his ask if he bounces back might be out of the Jets pay scale. So if the team is destined to miss the playoffs in the coming years do you move Helle next year to help replenish the prospect pool and worry about a goalie when the team is ready to contend.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Wow, the Avs are so impressive. Their riches on defense are embarrassing, and then you look at their forwards. Their only slight weakness is goaltending - I'm sure they could pick up a good vetetan backup rental at the tdl for not much.

They play the game at such a high pace and execution level - that's the gold standard. I thought the Jets played well in the first, no doubt, but I also think the Avs may have taken them lightly and their goalie struggled a bit in the first. Once they decided to play, we had no shot. Reminded me of the 17-18 Jets actually. When that team decided to turn it on, not many teams had an answer.

I think Dillon was very good in the game, and if that's Dubois 'fading away' I sure hope he fades more. Laine can score goals when he's hot but Dubois was just an absolute bull - he's quickly becoming a unicorn and one of the hardest types of players to acquire.

When you see Mackinnon play, you quickly see what a one dimensional player Mark Schiefele is. More breeze bys on goals against, and he was playing like he was at an all star game - trying stupid little moves, an individual, selfish game. I'm convinced now it's time to move on from him, despite his production. When you're a point a game guy who is a net negative on the ice, you aren't playing for the team, you're playing for yourself.

Why the hell is Beaulieu still here? By my assessment, he's 12th on our depth chart at best. Having him here in case of injury is a stupid argument, I'd rather call up 4 other guys before dressing him.

We need meaningful change this off season, both with the roster and coaching.

I'd waive Beau, trade Schmidt, and get Heinola and Samberg on the roster to play out the rest of the season to get some experience.

Schiefele especially with his contract will fetch a handsome return. I'd look to get an up and coming C that plays a two way game.

Don't know why you think Colorado is weak(ish) in goal. 2 goalies playing very well.

Otherwise - great post.

 

[LowLefty]

I wouldn't call 5 straight goals against in less than half a game (or 6 in < 2/3 of a game) low event.

People are thrashing about looking for the right words to describe and categorize what they are seeing. I don't think it is that easy to pigeon hole in hockey terms. We have a team that doesn't appear to listen to its (interim) coach and that is a defeated bunch, very fragile. They seem to give up pretty easily at the first sign of adversity.

I don't think terms like high event, low event, offensive, defensive, fast paced, hard on the puck, etc have any place in the discussion. They are none of those. Just a rudderless ship floundering in heavy seas.

I get your point - but what's the point in having any sort of board discussion if we are not going to at least attempt to break it down.
The very fact that we are "none of these" is the reason the points are being discussed.

Where it gets interesting is when you see the differing POV's out there - not just in what the issues are but also the order in which they should be addressed -
The result is a compilation of all the things that piss fan offs - and how each fan prioritizes the issues.

 

[Snot Rocket]

ScheifMe now sits at 931st in the NHL +/- category. He is in the company of players on much worse teams with very bad GA stats. 55 is the weakest link and is the primary reason this team is doing so poorly.

View attachment 510750

Perhaps a little too overdramatic there?
Chef's 59th in points the last time I checked. 9th last season, something like 26th before that.
He's having a down year points wise, however it's on the coaches to make sure he isn't a defensive liability.
Either they get him to change his game or they stop deploying him against top lines but preferably both.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Now I'm not advocating to trade Helle, but this team is not ready to contend as currently construction both on and off the ice, if they plan a rebuild they probably wont be much better next year and might make strides the following year. Helle has 2 years remaining on his contract then UFA and his ask if he bounces back might be out of the Jets pay scale. So if the team is destined to miss the playoffs in the coming years do you move Helle next year to help replenish the prospect pool and worry about a goalie when the team is ready to contend.

I'm holding to my belief that Helly doesn't want to play in Canada any longer because of our more stringent covid restrictions. It's possible he could have a change of heart over the next couple of years, but I still expect him to jump to a US team no matter what the Jets offer. Add in that our window is likely closed now anyway, and the fact that his arrogant, lack of accountability gets on my nerves and trading him sooner than later would suit me just fine.

 

[Guardian17]

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I get your point - but what's the point in having any sort of board discussion if we are not going to at least attempt to break it down.
The very fact that we are "none of these" is the reason the points are being discussed.

Where it gets interesting is when you see the differing POV's out there - not just in what the issues are but also the order in which they should be addressed -
The result is a compilation of all the things that piss fan offs - and how each fan prioritizes the issues.

Sure - but my POV is that none of those things apply here and now. No amount of effort at building an identity or constructing systems, etc is going to make any difference until the rudder is fixed.

The interim coach is clearly not working. That is probably on our leadership as much as it is on him. So one is the rudder and the other is the wheel (hmmm, pun might fit). I don't think our 'leadership' really tried to support our interim coach and give him a fair chance. That is unforgivable in my book.

OK, so you would go through a wall for the old coach and didn't want him gone. You can't do anything about that. What you can do is work your butt off to give the replacement guy every chance to succeed.

I think Lowry can't be made permanent new HC. That boat sailed, and struck a reef just outside the harbour. Went down with all hands. At the very least, we need a new captain, not named Scheifele. In fact, I think we need to accept that Scheifele needs to go. Distasteful as that may be. I think he needs that change of scenery as much as we need him to have it. It might be possible to keep Wheeler in a reduced role, but that is probably risking an unhappy camper in the room.

So ... departing before next TC - entire coaching staff, Copp, Stastny, Scheifele, Wheeler and probably at least one, more likely 2 and maybe all 3 of Dillon, Stanley & Schmidt. I'd keep Stan unless we get a good offer. That is quite a makeover.

If that sounds a little extreme, it is. It is what we get for having kept Maurice around for 2-3 years too long. I think it has become necessary.

 

[Orrrules]

Now I'm not advocating to trade Helle, but this team is not ready to contend as currently construction both on and off the ice, if they plan a rebuild they probably wont be much better next year and might make strides the following year. Helle has 2 years remaining on his contract then UFA and his ask if he bounces back might be out of the Jets pay scale. So if the team is destined to miss the playoffs in the coming years do you move Helle next year to help replenish the prospect pool and worry about a goalie when the team is ready to contend.

Yes

 

[gojetsgo]

wait, wheeler is being blamed for that goal... rofl, just wow...

 

[LowLefty]

Sure - but my POV is that none of those things apply here and now. No amount of effort at building an identity or constructing systems, etc is going to make any difference until the rudder is fixed.

The interim coach is clearly not working. That is probably on our leadership as much as it is on him. So one is the rudder and the other is the wheel (hmmm, pun might fit). I don't think our 'leadership' really tried to support our interim coach and give him a fair chance. That is unforgivable in my book.

OK, so you would go through a wall for the old coach and didn't want him gone. You can't do anything about that. What you can do is work your butt off to give the replacement guy every chance to succeed.

I think Lowry can't be made permanent new HC. That boat sailed, and struck a reef just outside the harbour. Went down with all hands. At the very least, we need a new captain, not named Scheifele. In fact, I think we need to accept that Scheifele needs to go. Distasteful as that may be. I think he needs that change of scenery as much as we need him to have it. It might be possible to keep Wheeler in a reduced role, but that is probably risking an unhappy camper in the room.

So ... departing before next TC - entire coaching staff, Copp, Stastny, Scheifele, Wheeler and probably at least one, more likely 2 and maybe all 3 of Dillon, Stanley & Schmidt. I'd keep Stan unless we get a good offer. That is quite a makeover.

If that sounds a little extreme, it is. It is what we get for having kept Maurice around for 2-3 years too long. I think it has become necessary.

I agree with pretty much everything -
But, the moves you are suggesting are all things (IMO) that would / could help improve the points that you say do not apply.
Fans are diving into the pcs of the game that they need to improve - you appear to be diving into the moves you need to make to allow the pcs of the game to improve.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If Colorado could somehow find a way to fit Fleury at the deadline I'd say just cancel the playoffs and give them the Cup already.

I'd keep Schmidt for now since we don't have much on the right and I don't want to develop Heinola and Samberg on their off side.

With Schmidt seemingly a fixture on the 3rd pair, I'd play Kovacevic there and save 5 mi+ in cap space that could be used elsewhere.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I agree with pretty much everything -
But, the moves you are suggesting are all things (IMO) that would / could help improve the points that you say do not apply.
Fans are diving into the pcs of the game that they need to improve - you appear to be diving into the moves you need to make to allow the pcs of the game to improve.

I'll buy that.

We don't have an identity? OK, pick one.
We don't have good (any) systems? OK, pick one.
Etc.

It isn't like there is any one best thing there. But we seem to have none of the above. No where to go but up. We need the leaders (coach included here) to lead. We are directionless, so any direction will be an improvement.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I feel like we are the new Buffalo Sabers lol.

Not for another 10 years, just like this one.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Not sure if you're serious, but it's evidently clear now, Mo wasn't the issue... I'm sure he was a factor, but apparently he was working with players that refuse to get their shit together.
Quit/Fired...no real difference.

I think Mo created the monster. He spent years refusing to hold players accountable for their play.

 

[thai jet]

I wouldn't call 5 straight goals against in less than half a game (or 6 in < 2/3 of a game) low event.

People are thrashing about looking for the right words to describe and categorize what they are seeing. I don't think it is that easy to pigeon hole in hockey terms. We have a team that doesn't appear to listen to its (interim) coach and that is a defeated bunch, very fragile. They seem to give up pretty easily at the first sign of adversity.

I don't think terms like high event, low event, offensive, defensive, fast paced, hard on the puck, etc have any place in the discussion. They are none of those. Just a rudderless ship floundering in heavy seas.

Best I can describe them is as "leaderless".

 

[LowLefty]

I'll buy that.

We don't have an identity? OK, pick one.
We don't have good (any) systems? OK, pick one.
Etc.

It isn't like there is any one best thing there. But we seem to have none of the above. No where to go but up. We need the leaders (coach included here) to lead. We are directionless, so any direction will be an improvement.

Systems? Too early IMO
Identity? Team that works real hard while they sort out the roster and find a coach.

That's where I would start - it certainly isn't the long term plan but you have to start somewhere and I believe this should be the fundamental starting point.
That is, assuming you can get anyone to buy in - which they are not - but it's still the starting point.
I'd think this task would have been laid before coach Lowry - and I sense his frustration