Rumor: Jesse Puljujarvi Part 3: Maybe He Picked Out His Brain Through His Nose One Lick at a Time?

[nexttothemoon]

If you're going to fancy yourself a draft expert don't try to change your original opinion years later to make yourself look better. You're arguing against your own words in here.

I didn't change anything... read the posts and look at the ranked list I made on June 21st... there's lots of conversations about prospects and picks that people shoot the shit about before the draft.. and obviously the Oilers were going to pick Puljujarvi #4... because they thought they had a great prospect falling into their laps.

I wrote a LOT about picking McAvoy at #4.. so much so that I'm sure people were sickened by my support for him... just like I'm sure they are sickened by me and you going on and on now about past shit from 3 years ago.

If you want to believe I'm lying about my rankings well... fill your boots.

If I really wanted to lie I'd likely remove Thompson who I had rated so high (what a f***ing idiot I am)

 

[Del Preston]

Well yes I would have drafted McAvoy at #4 (not that I or anyone else here has any input into that decision)... Puljujarvi WAS overrated (which is clearly known now by all but only a few saw that then apparently) and he WAS drafted too high.

Doesn't matter that I was right all along and other scouts/posters/ were wrong... Oilers chose a player that they felt was worthy of that pick.. who turned out not to be... some saw that he had issues that made him not worthy of that #3 status he had... most didn't.

He's certainly not the 1st overrated prospect who was chosen too high and certainly won't be the last... such are the vagaries of trying to project a 17 year old mind/body 3-10 years forward in time.

Are you aware how disingenuous you are being?

You ranked him where everyone else had him ranked. Not once did you describe JP as overrated or unworthy of being selected high. You made multiple posts about him being in the top five and the Oilers getting a top prospect regardless of what happened in the draft lottery. You even speculated the Oilers would get great value if they traded down because the chance to pick Puljujarvi was attractive.

You were wrong about him just like everyone else was. For some reason you're now claiming that you knew drafting Puljuarvi #4 wasn't a good idea. That's 100% bull.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I gave you the link to my list of final rankings.. if you choose to ignore that.. your choice because it fits your agenda better I guess.


Here's further posts I made...

"I'd be pretty shocked if Matthews-Laine didn't go 1-2.

I wouldn't at all be shocked if Puljujarvi didn't go #3... in fact if I were a betting man I'd say the odds are very high that some prospect other than Puljujarvi goes at that #3 spot."

.........

"I don't think anyone honestly knows if there's a true #1 in this draft until several years down the road... there could very well be a #1 lurking in the late 1st or early 2nd round of this draft... and who knows.. Sergachev/Chychrun/Juolevi/McAvoy could be #1's... only time will tell.

No one knew Duncan Keith was a #1 either when he was drafted.

If I was a betting man.. I definitely put money on a #1 dman rising up from this draft... the obvious problem though is... picking which one. "

........

"I'm not necessarily a huge Dubois backer (if pushed to choose, I'd go with McAvoy as the perfect pick)... but if Dubois is a solid 2-way player with good wheels and is even average on the dot... I see no reason why his game can't translate to centre at the NHL level.

There are certainly players who are power forwards who started their careers as a winger and then adapted to C... the most famous likely being Messier."






You are picking out just pieces of conversations everyone had about all the prospects and trying to say I'm a liar about where I had Puljujarvi ranked.


I had McAvoy ranked at #3 and Puljujarvi ranked at #11 in my final rankings as I've shown up above.


Obviously the Oilers weren't going to pick McAvoy at #3 and they'd likely go with Puljujarvi because they along with most other scouts were seeing something that wasn't there in Puljujarvi... and they got it wrong... obviously.



Doesn't matter that I was right and the Oilers and other scouts were wrong because that had ZERO effect on the draft because no one listens to any of us here and uses that for their draft analysis... but hey of it makes you feel better... you can pretend whatever you like and distort whatever you want in your mind.


Here's another one to keep in your head while we are at it since you are tracking comments and threads so closely... Kaliyev is better than Broberg... that's not a consensus pick either and scouts got it wrong on Kaliyev.



Since you seem bored and like to look at my past postings... here's some more to read about my comments on McAvoy...


..........................................................................
My ranking list for that 1st round of the draft:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...ng-to-stauffer.2087995/page-17#post-119578035

Threads where I said I wanted the Oilers to choose him at #4 and that I felt McAvoy was the best dman in the draft...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...ng-to-stauffer.2087995/page-15#post-119531279
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-you-trade-down.2080487/page-3#post-118616417
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...rall-selection.2073015/page-20#post-118056255
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...you-trade-down.2080487/page-10#post-118810063
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...rall-selection.2073015/page-21#post-118063917
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/the-2016-nhl-entry-draft-part-3.2095705/page-10#post-119846649


Here's a bonus posting for you to further dazzle you with my drafting/scouting prowess ...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-1st-round-pick-s.933267/page-5#post-34050231

I would have taken Kucherov in 2011 (you know the guy who's leading the entire NHL in scoring right now... ya that guy... as the Oilers pick in the 2nd round instead of "safe and busty" Musil.)

I said at the time Kucherov was likely the BPA of that entire draft. Turned out pretty accurate.



​

Don’t throw your shoulder out while you pat yourself on the back.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Are you aware how disingenuous you are being?

You ranked him where everyone else had him ranked. Not once did you describe JP as overrated or unworthy of being selected high. You made multiple posts about him being in the top five and the Oilers getting a top prospect regardless of what happened in the draft lottery. You even speculated the Oilers would get great value if they traded down because the chance to pick Puljujarvi was attractive.

You were wrong about him just like everyone else was. For some reason you're now claiming that you knew drafting Puljuarvi #4 wasn't a good idea. That's 100% bull.

Look I'll explain this as simply as I can.. and I'm really not being disingenuous here... no one is getting paid here, I'm not getting paid or employed as a scout so I'll explain what we do here in the forums.



MY LIST of rankings is how I saw the players turning out at the NHL level... Here's that list from above..


From June 21st 2016:

My top prospect list based on expectations of how they may pan out in the NHL...

Matthews
>>
Laine
>
McAvoy
>>>
Thompson
>
Brown=Sergachev=Tkachuk
>
Chychrun
>>
Dineen=Kunin=Puljujarvi=Bastian
>
Nylander
>
Mascherin=Dubois=Bellows
>
Sokolov
>
McLeod
>
Allard
>
Debrincat=Raddysh
>
Benson=Bean=Keller
>
Gauthier
>>
Krys
>
Girard=Howden=Juolevi=Lajoie

........................................................................................................................






Now when we talk on the forums here we all talk about what we think and then what the team will likely do... that's 2 different things.

I would have chosen McAvoy and said so.

The team obviously wouldn't do that because everybody and their DOG thought JP was a good pick at #3 so the obvious move for the Oilers was that they'd pick him at #4 if he fell there... because yes that's what most scouts thought was good at the time... except for a few obviously.


That's what the discussions are keyed around as well on the forums... what we feel the team would do and what the best value for the team would be... ie trading down, trading up, taking BPA etc.

I had my own feelings on who I'd choose but obviously I have ZERO impact on the team's choices so I and others also talk about what the team would/could likely do as well because those are the more likely scenarios.


My list above is far from perfect... In retrospect I'd have guys like Debrincat and Keller higher and others lower but that's the final list I came up with after mulling and adjusting and discussing for weeks and months.



I'm actually being honest (not that it matters because my opinion counts for f*** all anyway)... but why would I lie when there's zero money involved... and zero accolades to be gained. It's all just forum chat and supposed to be pretty innocuous.


I get people saying I'm full of shit and lying when I posted the list above... whatever... choose to believe what you want and it matters ZERO anyway because we have zero impact on the team or decisions they make.

 

[Senor Catface]

Call the police. Del has committed a murder.

 

[bobbythebrain]

 

[McTonyBrar]

Can this stupid drama about this no name buffoon end? Let him go cry in Europe. Who the **** cares anymore?

 

[Del Preston]

Look I'll explain this as simply as I can.. and I'm really not being disingenuous here... no one is getting paid here, I'm not getting paid or employed as a scout so I'll explain what we do here in the forums.



MY LIST of rankings is how I saw the players turning out at the NHL level... Here's that list from above..


From June 21st 2016:

My top prospect list based on expectations of how they may pan out in the NHL...

Matthews
>>
Laine
>
McAvoy
>>>
Thompson
>
Brown=Sergachev=Tkachuk
>
Chychrun
>>
Dineen=Kunin=Puljujarvi=Bastian
>
Nylander
>
Mascherin=Dubois=Bellows
>
Sokolov
>
McLeod
>
Allard
>
Debrincat=Raddysh
>
Benson=Bean=Keller
>
Gauthier
>>
Krys
>
Girard=Howden=Juolevi=Lajoie

........................................................................................................................






Now when we talk on the forums here we all talk about what we think and then what the team will likely do... that's 2 different things.

I would have chosen McAvoy and said so.

The team obviously wouldn't do that because everybody and their DOG thought JP was a good pick at #3 so the obvious move for the Oilers was that they'd pick him at #4 if he fell there... because yes that's what most scouts thought was good at the time... except for a few obviously.


That's what the discussions are keyed around as well on the forums... what we feel the team would do and what the best value for the team would be... ie trading down, trading up, taking BPA etc.

I had my own feelings on who I'd choose but obviously I have ZERO impact on the team's choices so I and others also talk about what the team would/could likely do as well because those are the more likely scenarios.


My list above is far from perfect... In retrospect I'd have guys like Debrincat and Keller higher and others lower but that's the final list I came up with after mulling and adjusting and discussing for weeks and months.



I'm actually being honest (not that it matters because my opinion counts for **** all anyway)... but why would I lie when there's zero money involved... and zero accolades to be gained. It's all just forum chat and supposed to be pretty innocuous.


I get people saying I'm full of **** and lying when I posted the list above... whatever... choose to believe what you want and it matters ZERO anyway because we have zero impact on the team or decisions they make.

Ok that's fine. If you are wrong about a player I am not going to hold it against you. I just don't agree with you saying you were right when there are posts in the past suggesting otherwise.

That's actually me.

 

[nexttothemoon]

That's actually me.

I think you're being disingenuous.

 

[TheNumber4]

Look I'll explain this as simply as I can.. and I'm really not being disingenuous here... no one is getting paid here, I'm not getting paid or employed as a scout so I'll explain what we do here in the forums.



MY LIST of rankings is how I saw the players turning out at the NHL level... Here's that list from above..


From June 21st 2016:

My top prospect list based on expectations of how they may pan out in the NHL...

Matthews
>>
Laine
>
McAvoy
>>>
Thompson
>
Brown=Sergachev=Tkachuk
>
Chychrun
>>
Dineen=Kunin=Puljujarvi=Bastian
>
Nylander
>
Mascherin=Dubois=Bellows
>
Sokolov
>
McLeod
>
Allard
>
Debrincat=Raddysh
>
Benson=Bean=Keller
>
Gauthier
>>
Krys
>
Girard=Howden=Juolevi=Lajoie

........................................................................................................................






Now when we talk on the forums here we all talk about what we think and then what the team will likely do... that's 2 different things.

I would have chosen McAvoy and said so.

The team obviously wouldn't do that because everybody and their DOG thought JP was a good pick at #3 so the obvious move for the Oilers was that they'd pick him at #4 if he fell there... because yes that's what most scouts thought was good at the time... except for a few obviously.


That's what the discussions are keyed around as well on the forums... what we feel the team would do and what the best value for the team would be... ie trading down, trading up, taking BPA etc.

I had my own feelings on who I'd choose but obviously I have ZERO impact on the team's choices so I and others also talk about what the team would/could likely do as well because those are the more likely scenarios.


My list above is far from perfect... In retrospect I'd have guys like Debrincat and Keller higher and others lower but that's the final list I came up with after mulling and adjusting and discussing for weeks and months.



I'm actually being honest (not that it matters because my opinion counts for **** all anyway)... but why would I lie when there's zero money involved... and zero accolades to be gained. It's all just forum chat and supposed to be pretty innocuous.


I get people saying I'm full of **** and lying when I posted the list above... whatever... choose to believe what you want and it matters ZERO anyway because we have zero impact on the team or decisions they make.

Nice List. Looks like you had a good sense of that draft. Think you deserve some props.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I doubt Carolina would give up any real asset. I'm sure they'd love to get him for the next to nothing he's worth now. I would do a project for project trade with any other team in the league but Carolina would have to pay more than he was worth on draft day.
You can't reward this sort of behaviour.

What is the behavior you are referring to? Genuinely curious as I have no clue about it. Is there legit information, or are people drawing their own conclusions because he’s friends with Aho and Aho’s dad is the Karpat GM?

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

What is the behavior you are referring to? Genuinely curious as I have no clue about it. Is there legit information, or are people drawing their own conclusions because he’s friends with Aho and Aho’s dad is the Karpat GM?

I haven't seen a media article with a quote from Jesse confirming anything about Aho. AFAIK that's all just ppl connecting the dots and I doubt anything will come of it.

The behaviour I'm referring to is more than that though, the whole contract situation has been bad. Holland has to play hardball with JP for the good of the team and the league.

 

[joestevens29]

One funny thing I read last week was that his agent says if it was about money then JP would've signed in the KHL a long time ago.

Stauffer mentioned a month ago an agent told him it's more than likely that JP has no real good offer hence why they did that back pedalling.

What a game of chicken JP's side seem to be playing by themselves.

 

[belair]

That's actually me.

Mista Bob Dobalina?

 

[These Are The Days]

This ain't gonna go on much longer boys. Karpat only has a few weeks before season starts and if JP just ditzes around waiting for a trade he's got more derp than I thought. You're literally doing nothing hoping you're gonna get your way

 

[HenrikW]

Maybe some people just saw something about Puljujarvi when he played that made them think he wasn't good enough for a #4 pick... and couldn't give 2 ****s about what the parrot consensus "pros" and scouts thought.

Scouts and "pros" get picks wrong ALL THE TIME... EVERY YEAR... always have and always will. They don't have a crystal ball and if you talk to a "real" scout they'll tell you that there's a lot of luck and guesswork involved in projecting those players since their brains and bodies aren't fully developed at 17.

If you have eyeballs and a brain you can make evaluations as well. Sometimes they'll be right.. sometimes they'll be wrong... just like the "pros".

I call BULL**** on the consensus because the consensus CAN BE and IS wrong all the time.

I still think its a billion times more likely whomever is claiming they knew JP was a bust at draft is a) using hindsight to sound smarter than they are, or b) always negative and loves to claim prospects are bad without factual proof

The latter is probably one of the most common on here

Sure consensus can get it wrong, but you can only act on whatever information that is known. Sometimes that information is not enough. There are so many unknowns. We are talking 17 year olds. Do you really expect more correct assessments when it comes to kids?

Lets just look at it cleary for a moment:

JP played lights out internationally including 16th highest PPG in WCJ ever. For anyone who watched the tournament, its no surprise he was named MVP, ahead of both Laine, Matthews and Aho. For someone to have seen substancial flaws compared to his peers in his game back in those tournaments - that is simply not believable.

Even then, for someone to see alarming flaws in his game (which 17 yo doesnt have flaws wtf?), its over a 7 game span. This is the MVP of the tournament we are talking about. How can someone so confidently claim he is not going to be whats advertised?

Any other pre-draft game was played in finnish Liiga. A professional league in which he debuted as a 15 year old. How many people do you actually believe watched those games, the team Karpat, or let alone had access to the broadcasts?

I am confident none here that has said JP was clearly a bust pre-draft didnt watch a single regular season game

The only ones that watch Liiga are the Finns, and every single one of the Finns I have talked to have been convinced Oilers wasted/ruined Jesses incredible talent

Tdlr, consensus can be wrong but none here knew better actually

 

[ijuka]

I still think its a billion times more likely whomever is trying claim they knew JP was a bust at draft is a) using hindsight to sound smatter than they are, or b) always negative and loves to claim prospects are bad without factual proof

Well, we didn't hope that JP would be a bust, but we knew that he had very low hockey IQ and also knew he was much weaker than Laine or Aho. I mean, I even didn't like his u-20 performance and picked out clips of parts where I thought he displayed low hockey IQ pre-draft and obviously got roasted for that, but it's incorrect to claim that everyone who claims they knew Puljujärvi would do poorly was using revisionist history. Usually, you'd expect Finnish people to know the most about Finnish players playing in Finland, and it wasn't really an uncommon view that I had - though there certainly were Puljujärvi fans too, but IMO that's mostly due to Kärpät being the most popular team in Finland.

 

[HenrikW]

Well, we didn't hope that JP would be a bust, but we knew that he had very low hockey IQ and also knew he was much weaker than Laine or Aho. I mean, I even didn't like his u-20 performance and picked out clips of parts where I thought he displayed low hockey IQ pre-draft and obviously got roasted for that, but it's incorrect to claim that everyone who claims they knew Puljujärvi would do poorly was using revisionist history. Usually, you'd expect Finnish people to know the most about Finnish players playing in Finland, and it wasn't really an uncommon view that I had - though there certainly were Puljujärvi fans too, but IMO that's mostly due to Kärpät being the most popular team in Finland.

I sincerely would like to watch those clips thats supposed to show his ”low hockey IQ”

Are you sure you cant find similar clips of Matthews as a 17 yo if you tried?

I am not going to make any claims about you, but I think there’s an overwhelming majority that talks about hockey IQ that doesnt know the first thing on how to assess that in 17 yos. Call me cynical if you want

 

[nexttothemoon]

JP wasn't a bust when he was drafted... I don't think anyone has actually said that.

Some people simply liked other prospects ahead of JP and would have drafted others at #3/4 etc ahead of him.

One team and GM actually did draft a player ahead of him even though the consensus was that he was the #3 pick.

Personally I thought JP would be a good prospect (but not a pick as good as a #3/4 should be).

I still think JP is a good prospect and could make an NHL career for himself as a decent 3rd line talent and even a 2nd line solid 2 way player isn't out of reach... which would be a solid asset on any NHL team.

He certainly has most of the tools he needs... size, speed and a decent shot... but obviously there's some questionable parts of his game that need improving... but he still could improve and become a regular and productive NHL player... especially since he's only 21.

 

[ijuka]

I sincerely would like to watch those clips thats supposed to show his ”low hockey IQ”

Well, I don't have any to show you here. I did have a post from May 2016 that said that while he had the most points at WJC-u20s he was the worst player on the line, at least.

But as I was reading though, I was being way too positive about Puljujärvi in his thread for some reason even though I've never liked him. Like for some reason I agreed with another poster about him being a potential PKer even though I've never seen it. *Sighs* Oh well.

 

[HenrikW]

Well, I don't have any to show you here. I did have a post from May 2016 that said that while he had the most points at WJC-u20s he was the worst player on the line, at least.

But as I was reading though, I was being way too positive about Puljujärvi in his thread for some reason even though I've never liked him. Like for some reason I agreed with another poster about him being a potential PKer even though I've never seen it. *Sighs* Oh well.

Not that its worth much but I have alot of respect for you for admitting to that. Most people (myself included) will use certainty as means of winning arguments even when there are none

I dont doubt you thought JP was the worst player in the trio, or that you could have had him lower than 4th.

The majority had Aho as the worst in the trio - myself included, despite the fact that I didnt really watch him intently...

I guess its confirmation bias

I am just opposed of the notion that anyone truly could claim it was a bad pick at 4th. You could have prefered someone else but thats something different. Players are still so raw at that age, if someone has some flaws they have to be fairly severe and constant for someone to say a performance like JPs in the WJC probably isnt the real deal

 

[nexttothemoon]

Kucherov is a good example as well of scouting bias and consensus ranking "issues".

Kucherov annihilated the WJC in his draft year... 3 pts/game... he was ridiculous in that tournament and after watching him play I was shocked how far he fell in the draft even though he was likely BPA in that entire draft... yet he was chosen 58th overall... so obviously the "Russian factor" caused the consensus to rate him far, far, far below what he was actually worth.

TB took a shot at him in the late 2nd and the rest is history.

 

[Mr Positive]

Kucherov is a good example as well of scouting bias and consensus ranking "issues".

Kucherov annihilated the WJC in his draft year... 3 pts/game... he was ridiculous in that tournament and after watching him play I was shocked how far he fell in the draft even though he was likely BPA in that entire draft... yet he was chosen 58th overall... so obviously the "Russian factor" caused the consensus to rate him far, far, far below what he was actually worth.

TB took a shot at him in the late 2nd and the rest is history.

Kucherov is also an example of how a great surrounding cast can help development. Think of all the great forwards, Dmen and goalies he's been priviledged to play with.

 

[Garbo Man]

Apparently Laine is gonna join his buddy Pulju in Europe if he doesn't get what he wants