Player Discussion Jesse Puljujärvi 4th Overall 2016 Draft.

[McOvechking]

Comparing Pulju to MPS because they have "järvi" as a suffix is silly. Järvi is a a very common suffix for Swedish/Finnish surnames, I believe it means something like "lake". Maybe some of our Finnish friends can expand on this.

It would be like the common last name prefix "O'____" or "Mc____" for the Irish, or "Mac______" for the Scottish.

I really hope that's not why people are comparing Puljujarvi to Paajarvi.

 

[Aceboogie]

Debatable. PLD has Jamie Benn written all over him.

MPS was consistently in the top 5 rankings - but dropped to 9th.

At end of day, you can't make exceptions. Puljujarvi was 4th OV.

He wasnt really. He was ranked in top 5 in the odd pre draft ranking from early in season. Same as how Kylington was top 5 in opening 2015 rankings

This is rankings people always refer back to:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/22584-The-Hockey-News-2009-Draft-Prospect-Rankings.html

THN ranking him 4th in Jan of draft year.

At end of season MPS was concencus 7-13 pick. Here is TSNs top 30: http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=11043

MPS at 10

http://thehockeywriters.com/the-hockey-spy%E2%80%99s-2009-nhl-entry-draft-preview/

MPS at 7

In comparison. JP was the unanimous concensus 3rd overall on draft day. Here is a google docs that has a combined list from 17 sources (Mackenzie, Button, Mckeens, THN, CSS etc): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TyFJM2L3DkIAX-4HjmxT7wnbA752y6DCERtM7555Hlw/edit#gid=1854770418. Puljujuarvi is ranked 3rd overall in every single one. PLD is actually concensus 5th overall whos ranking varies from 4-8 but never in one list goes over JP

 

[Aceboogie]

I really hope that's not why people are comparing Puljujarvi to Paajarvi.

I think it is. Some comparison too that they are big and fast

 

[snipes]

I really hope that's not why people are comparing Puljujarvi to Paajarvi.

There was a post a page or so back that implied it.

Edit: post #380 Draiskull implies it.

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

A bit of a revisionist history going on here - MPS was highly acclaimed back in 2009 and his world juniors success and relatively solid rookie season only enhanced the expectations.

Check out his goal at 0:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2YWOGoOcmg

You hope Jesse Puljujarvi, who has had some similar criticisms about his inability to finish, does not trend in the same career path. It's always foolish to count prospects as sure bets.

 

[BB88]

A bit of a revisionist history going on here - MPS was highly acclaimed back in 2009 and his world juniors success and relatively solid rookie season only enhanced the expectations.

Check out his goal at 0:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2YWOGoOcmg

You hope Jesse Puljujarvi, who has had some similar criticisms about his inability to finish, does not trend in the same career path. It's always foolish to count prospects as sure bets.

May I ask more about that?

 

[Aceboogie]

A bit of a revisionist history going on here - MPS was highly acclaimed back in 2009 and his world juniors success and relatively solid rookie season only enhanced the expectations.

Check out his goal at 0:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2YWOGoOcmg

You hope Jesse Puljujarvi, who has had some similar criticisms about his inability to finish, does not trend in the same career path. It's always foolish to count prospects as sure bets.

Its not really tho. He was ranked 7-10 on draft day, you are remembering it incorrectly that he was a concensus top 5 pick who fell. That was said about him by Oiler fans to hype a pick, but in reality almost every scouting agency had him outside top 5. It was true he was a projected top 5 pick in early parts of year, but so was Nick Ebert before he fell to last overall

JP did have very minor questions about scoring ability, but it was more about- will he score enough to be better than Austin Matthews- an insanely good 1st overall. With MPS it was more like "will he be able to score in NHL at all?"

And noone is saying this guy is a sure bet. He can easily bust. But his skillsets differ vastly from MPS. Other than similar name and being big and fast, they arent much alike

I mean Laine-Yak comparison could be made. Brule-Tkachuk could be made. PLD-Niedrietter could be made.

If JP has a comparison for a recently drafted pick itd be Forsberg

 

[oStealthKiller*]

Obviously Pulju is very unlikely to be as bad as MPS, but i can see the concern.

Pulju's VO2max was exceptional early in his draft year beating almost any NHLer, being a great skater despite the size and growth spurt. He's a freak of nature physically and I wonder if that leaves less left for him to grow on compared to other draftees??

His non stop motor is part of what makes him great. He is not close to peaking physically. Strength and weight will come

 

[Aceboogie]

And hell, comparing him to MPS shouldnt be some cardinal sin. Prospects fail. All the time. Including top 5 picks. But also sometimes top 5 picks other that 1 or 2 become Elite, top NHL stars.

So JP probably has as much chance of ending up as MPS as he does as ending up like Hossa or Iggy

 

[ijuka]

Puljujärvi is absolutely nothing like MPS as a player. It seems like the only reason people are comparing them is because their last names end in the Finnish "-lake" suffix. I can't imagine a more stupid reason to link players.


For the record, comparing Yakupov to Laine is even more dumb.

And hell, comparing him to MPS shouldnt be some cardinal sin. Prospects fail. All the time. Including top 5 picks. But also sometimes top 5 picks other that 1 or 2 become Elite, top NHL stars.

So JP probably has as much chance of ending up as MPS as he does as ending up like Hossa or Iggy

They aren't lottery picks. Every prospect is an individual and you can project each of them if you're able to study them and have the understanding required.

 

[Aceboogie]

Obviously Pulju is very unlikely to be as bad as MPS, but i can see the concern.

Pulju's VO2max was exceptional early in his draft year beating almost any NHLer, being a great skater despite the size and growth spurt. He's a freak of nature physically and I wonder if that leaves less left for him to grow on compared to other draftees??

I would actually argue the opposite. I saw numerous times pre draft that a big thing with Puljuarvi was that he was still getting used to body after a growth spurt and his shot was all over the place as a result. It can hinder other finesse points of your game when you are used to size of limbs

For a quick reference, a guy like Colton Parayko was a monster in his first AJHL season but he was bad on ice because he wasnt used to body at all. He grew like 4 inches that year. So he was way behind 5'10-6 foot players who grew into body for 3 years already. Then in 2nd and 1st NCAA year he grew into body and started to domiante. Now he is where he is

The argument does apply to 6 foot 200 pound players tho who have had 2 years at that height and now getting weight. People try and apply arguement to 5'9 players saying they will grow and fill out, but often you stop growing at 18.

For JP its not about growing, its about filling out and getting used to size

 

[IamherefortheFinn]

Comparing Pulju to MPS because they have "järvi" as a suffix is silly. Järvi is a a very common suffix for Swedish/Finnish surnames, I believe it means something like "lake". Maybe some of our Finnish friends can expand on this.

It would be like the common last name prefix "O'____" or "Mc____" for the Irish, or "Mac______" for the Scottish.

Järvi is a Finnish word that indeed means lake. Järvi is also a surname here in it's own and there are a lot of other surnames that start or end with Järvi.

Some Swedes might have the Järvi last names too because a lot of Finns moved to Sweden in the 60's and 70's and a small number of Finns where also left on that side of the border in the north after the war of 1809.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Debatable. PLD has Jamie Benn written all over him.

MPS was consistently in the top 5 rankings - but dropped to 9th.

At end of day, you can't make exceptions. Puljujarvi was 4th OV.

or he could also turn out to be Benoit Pouliot or worse...Pierre-Marc Bouchard

thats the thing with prospects...they all develop differently

 

[Aceboogie]

Puljujärvi is absolutely nothing like MPS as a player. It seems like the only reason people are comparing them is because their last names end in the Finnish "-lake" suffix. I can't imagine a more stupid reason to link players.


For the record, comparing Yakupov to Laine is even more dumb.



They aren't lottery picks. Every prospect is an individual and you can project each of them if you're able to study them and have the understanding required.

The Yak-Laine comparison was to show how ridicilous a JP-MPS comparison is. You could say Laine is similar to Yak in that they both had elite shots on draft day, but analysis needs to go further

With pretty limited success rate. I mean every scouting agency and almost every GM studied Yakupov for seasons and projected him to be a top NHL player

These kids are 18 and development can go very differently. or JP, he could burn out as 3rd line puck retriving winger, or he could be a top 5 NHL winger. Probably somewhere in middle as a Wheeler type 1st line winger with first 5 seasons as 2nd line guy.

 

[VainGretzky]

Debatable. PLD has Jamie Benn written all over him.

MPS was consistently in the top 5 rankings - but dropped to 9th.

At end of day, you can't make exceptions. Puljujarvi was 4th OV.

A bit of a revisionist history going on here - MPS was highly acclaimed back in 2009 and his world juniors success and relatively solid rookie season only enhanced the expectations.

Check out his goal at 0:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2YWOGoOcmg

You hope Jesse Puljujarvi, who has had some similar criticisms about his inability to finish, does not trend in the same career path. It's always foolish to count prospects as sure bets.

 

[Aceboogie]

lmao

 

[bobbythebrain]

or he could also turn out to be Benoit Pouliot or worse...Pierre-Marc Bouchard

thats the thing with prospects...they all develop differently

His low projection is Sean Couterier. His coach also said he has more upside than Giroux when he coached him.

Of course anything can happen, but based on projections, all anyone can base players on, he looks like a safe bet

 

[Speed220DChalavan]

Haha you got me there. No excuses.

I'd like Puljujarvi to be turn out. Just have a hint of skepticism based on the the results of the past 10 years (both high-end prospects - Yakupov, RNH, Gagner), the mid-level (Schremp, Pouliot, Paajaarvi, Lander, Plante, Nash), and the lower tier (JF Jacques, Peckham, Slepeshev, Yakimov, Musil, Pitlick, Chase, Gernat, Hamilton) etc.

Nearly every prospect is hyped up on every fan base's message board, expectations are high, and this is completely inconsistent with reality.

Nearly 1/2 of 1st rounders fail, and second round picks are in the 15-30% range in any given year. It's a smart bet to project a prospect to fail - because that is what the odds tell us.

 

[Lennu32]

Comparing Pulju to MPS because they have "järvi" as a suffix is silly. Järvi is a a very common suffix for Swedish/Finnish surnames, I believe it means something like "lake". Maybe some of our Finnish friends can expand on this.

It would be like the common last name prefix "O'____" or "Mc____" for the Irish, or "Mac______" for the Scottish.

Yes, pretty much.

 

[Aceboogie]

His low projection is Sean Couterier. His coach also said he has more upside than Giroux when he coached him.

Of course anything can happen, but based on projections, all anyone can base players on, he looks like a safe bet

That is not a low point at all. is low point is as of a NHL journeyman who at times can play in top 3 lines. Ill bet more players drafted 3-7 ended up like than they have like NHL stars. Coaches will always say their best player is ofcourse going to be super elite in next level.

A really good comparison for upside is actually Couturier tho. Almost identical draft year points and pretty similar games. Couturier not turning into Bergeon should not be the exception, it should be expected. Just because you look like Bergeron in QMJHL doesnt mean youll do that in NHL

Same goes for JP tho. His floor isnt Pouliot or Wheeler, its as a waiver wire, NHL journeyman. Laines floor isnt James Neal, its Nail Yakupov

An arguement for a later day is that people need to stop saying "low ceiling but high floor player" or "safe bet" forever. Almost no prospects with a "high floor" pan out

 

[Aceboogie]

Haha you got me there. No excuses.

I'd like Puljujarvi to be turn out. Just have a hint of skepticism based on the the results of the past 10 years (both high-end prospects - Yakupov, RNH, Gagner), the mid-level (Schremp, Pouliot, Paajaarvi, Lander, Plante, Nash), and the lower tier (JF Jacques, Peckham, Slepeshev, Yakimov, Musil, Pitlick, Chase, Gernat, Hamilton) etc.

Nearly every prospect is hyped up on every fan base's message board, expectations are high, and this is completely inconsistent with reality.

Nearly 1/2 of 1st rounders fail, and second round picks are in the 15-30% range in any given year. It's a smart bet to project a prospect to fail - because that is what the odds tell us.

You can copy and paste that into every fans prospect board. Although maybe I misunderstood your argument because I thought you were saying PLD is the next Benn but JP is a long shot. If your argument is that prospects dont always pan out and get overrated for uspide at times, I am 100% with you and we are arguing same thing

Just from 2016, of the top 5 2 will end up as average 2nd line guys, 2 will be good 2nd line guys or 1st liners and 1 will pan out as expected and hyped (maybe even above). Lower odds for next 5 guys

Ill pick arbitrary numbers but for mre JP has like a 50% chance of panning out as expected, PLD 45%. So if I am going on the odds Ill bet JP. But knowing full well his odds arent great either.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Comparing Pulju to MPS because they have "järvi" as a suffix is silly. Järvi is a a very common suffix for Swedish/Finnish surnames, I believe it means something like "lake". Maybe some of our Finnish friends can expand on this.

It would be like the common last name prefix "O'____" or "Mc____" for the Irish, or "Mac______" for the Scottish.

It's strictly a Finnish suffix not Swedish/Finnish, Pääjärvi is a finnish surname.

For reference Pääjärvi in Swedish would be 'Huvudsjö', that's how different the languages are


edit: to clarify I'm not comparing them due to their name, I responded to whoever compared them and since they're both Oilers-drafted big fast wingers I baited on the concern.

 

[snipes]

Järvi is a Finnish word that indeed means lake. Järvi is also a surname here in it's own and there are a lot of other surnames that start or end with Järvi.

Some Swedes might have the Järvi last names too because a lot of Finns moved to Sweden in the 60's and 70's and a small number of Finns where also left on that side of the border in the north after the war of 1809.

Yes, pretty much.

It's strictly a Finnish suffix not Swedish/Finnish, Pääjärvi is a finnish surname.

For reference Pääjärvi in Swedish would be 'Huvudsjö', that's how different the languages are


edit: to clarify I'm not comparing them due to their name, I responded to whoever compared them and since they're both Oilers-drafted big fast wingers I baited on the concern.

Thanks guys . I knew you could help us out here.

Basically the conclusion is, remove any thoughts of MPS when thinking about Pulju. The suffix is common and a silly reason to draw a link between the two.

Pulju is a real deal prospect. People have been talking about him for 2-3 years prior to his draft, he always played years ahead (much like McDavid). He really is a special player, and he's flying under the radar which is good. Pulju will emerge as an elite talent down the road.

 

[McGoMcD]

Debatable. PLD has Jamie Benn written all over him.

MPS was consistently in the top 5 rankings - but dropped to 9th.

At end of day, you can't make exceptions. Puljujarvi was 4th OV.

I partially agree, but there is a couple errors with this. For one MPS dropped through multiple teams, so that says multiple teams saw something wrong with the ranking. Pool party dropped through one team and it seemed obvious that pretty much all 29 other NHL teams would have taken him at 3. So it seems pretty reasonable to say he was really the 3rd best player at the draft. MPS it really doesn't make sense to say he was really the 4th best player when he dropped so many spots.

 

[snipes]

Just putting it out there, I hate the "Pool party" nickname.

What's wrong with keeping it simple with Pulju?