Player Discussion Jeremy Swayman -V - all still silent

[MarchysNoseKnows]

The "credentials" argument is never going to be resolved here. There are 2 different philosophies about paying players:

1)Pay players for what they've done thus far in their careers- The rationale for this is you are paying a player for their actual demonstrated (and possible sustained) level of performance. The downside/risk is that you are paying a player for performance already gone and not necessarily for what they are going to do while under that new contract.

2) Pay players for what you think they are going to do under that new contract- The rationale is that you don't want to pay a player for what they've done in the past, but rather what they'll be. Locking a young player long term while "overpaying" in the first couple years is that you trust this player is going to outperform their contract and you won't have to worry about the UFA years when the price would be even higher. The risk is the player doesn't turn out to be what you think he is.

Teams in the past have typically gone for #1. This means you usually "win" on most of your contracts on young players and RFAs, but lose on older players and UFAs, because they are either no longer worth the $ as soon as they sign that contract and almost never going forward.

Many teams are now moving towards #2. See the recent contracts of Dylan Guenther and Seth Jarvis. Teams are betting on guys they've identified as cornerstone pieces and locking them up. It means they might be overpaying for the 1st couple years but will potentially have bargains as they get to what would have been the 3rd contract.

There's lots of issues I have with the people arguing for the #1 type philosophy but there's one main issue I have with it in regards to Swayman, and it's this:
The huge majority of people now saying Swayman hasn't proven anything and doesn't "deserve" to be paid like a top 5 goalie are the same people who all during the season were talking about Swayman being a top 5 goalie and an untouchable player on the team. They were all for trading a vezina winning Ullmark in order to clear the way for Sway. There was almost no talk of "Well maybe we shouldn't... maybe Sway can't handle a 60 game load.

I'd just like to imagine this scenario- All goalies in the NHL are miraculously made UFAs. Name all of the goalies you'd take ahead of Swayman to be your goalie for the next 8 years.

Which camp are you in if you think the right numbers for Swayman are 8x$8M-$8.25M or 4x$7M-$7.5M?

 

[KrejciMVP]

Which camp are you in if you think the right numbers for Swayman are 8x$8M-$8.25M or 4x$7M-$7.5M?

4 at 7.5 mill would be ok. Just too risky to sign an unproven goalie that along at that high a price tag who comes with a lot of drama and runs to podcasts when slighted

 

[NDiesel]

This thread is getting pretty wild. I'm definitely not saying pay Sway 10 mil and be done with it, but the amount of attacking him for not taking a pay cut or just signing is embarrassing. Thought we were all huge fans of his just 4 months ago...

Which camp are you in if you think the right numbers for Swayman are 8x$8M-$8.25M or 4x$7M-$7.5M?

Pretty much a combo of paying him for what he's done and what you think he'll be I'd say

 

[UncleRico]

What did that get any of them? Zero cups. No one on the 2011 team had taken a hometown discount. Some guys were underpaid, but no one specifically signed for less than that could have like some stars did after 2011.

You are correct, it got them absolutely nothing. Especially under Sweeney. All it got us was terrible free agent signings that were healthy scratched come playoff time.

All those hometown discounts went to Backes, Beleskey, John Moore, Mike Reilly, Nick Foligno, forbort, etc

Meanwhile Krejci had a dumpster fire for RWs under Sweeney for nearly a decade while we had upwards of $15m being healthy scratched in the playoffs at times under Sweeney

Go get your money Jeremy, it’s not going to make a difference under Sweeney anyways.

Sweeney and Evan Gold are so overrated it’s insane.

 

[4ORRBRUIN]

You are correct, it got them absolutely nothing. Especially under Sweeney. All it got us was terrible free agent signings that were healthy scratched come playoff time.

All those hometown discounts went to Backes, Beleskey, John Moore, Mike Reilly, Nick Foligno, forbort, etc

Meanwhile Krejci had a dumpster fire for RWs under Sweeney for nearly a decade while we had upwards of $15m being healthy scratched in the playoffs at times under Sweeney

Go get your money Jeremy, it’s not going to make a difference under Sweeney anyways.

Sweeney and Evan Gold are so overrated it’s insane.

Nice to see you got up with a positive attitude today

Go Bruins!

 

[Forester65]

Hardly, Swayman sees himself as the guy to reset the market for goalies. So he must see himself as better than Vas, or Shesterkin, or Sorokin. He's smoking the good stuff, if he sees himself as accomplished. But HE IS NOT.......YET. This is his 2nd deal, not his 3rd. There is precedent hat is not in his favor.
I expect him to get there, but Gross, who played hardball with TML w/Nylander, is filling his head with an exaggerated sense of value.
I just don't get the sense of entitlement that Sway and his fanbase have in this.
Pasta, McAvoy, and other B's have all taken reasonable 2nd deals.
Swayman's being butt hurt over the arbitration is childish. His agent has really failed him.

...especially on a team where the leaders Bergy and Marchy have been taking team-friendly deals for years to help the team win.

 

[Over the volcano]

What RFA goalie contracts are people looking at as comps for these 7-8+ mil estimates ?

I mean only six goalies in the whole league are over 6.5/year right now. Only eight are above 6mil. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[ranold26]

Your comment was Swayman would be in camp if he wanted to be there. No player is going to camp without a contract (unless their a PTO talent).

My comment stands. Ask yourself why he isn't.
I made some comments back in July about this situation and that he is going to get PAID.
It's clear the Bruins made moves and left cap space to slot him in, but apparently that isn't enough.....

 

[UncleRico]

Nice to see you got up with a positive attitude today

Go Bruins!

I’ve been saying too many positive things about swayman the past few days I was due for a negative post somewhere.

 

[badbrewin]

I still say Swayman should be between #5-6, and that's based on a modest career sampling. The guys higher up on that list have either won cups, Vezinas, are work horses and all have 500+ NHL games.

Then here comes Swayman with his 132 NHL games....have a little patience man, sign a fair market deal, sustain your performance and you WILL eventually get paid. Classic bridge deal scenario.

 

[UncleRico]

What RFA goalie contracts are people looking at as comps for these 7-8+ mil estimates ?

I mean only six goalies in the whole league are over 6.5/year right now. Only eight are above 6mil. Maybe I'm missing something?

I have yet to see a comp for swayman that’s realistic.

Show me comps with the following criteria:

-25 year old
- all star
- 1 year arbitration deal due to team not having cap space for a bridge deal
- following year both teams don’t elect for arbitration

 

[Over the volcano]

I still say Swayman should be between #5-6, and that's based on a modest career sampling. The guys higher up on that list have either won cups, Vezinas, are work horses and all have 500+ NHL games.

Then here comes Swayman with his 132 NHL games....have a little patience man, sign a fair market deal, sustain your performance and you WILL eventually get paid. Classic bridge deal scenario.

View attachment 908384

End of the day we have no idea what either side is asking for - could be a gap between 4.5 mil and 6 or between 7 and 8+.

 

[Hookslide]

Right, so we can’t “trade Swayman”, we can only trade his rights. Not that I want to. For the record.

Sign and trade

 

[PB37]

What RFA goalie contracts are people looking at as comps for these 7-8+ mil estimates ?

I mean only six goalies in the whole league are over 6.5/year right now. Only eight are above 6mil. Maybe I'm missing something?

Saros when he signed his contract at 26. Both with nearly the same accomplishments in the league and NHL status ( hovering around the Vezina conversation while in a 1a/1b goaltender tandem ). Saros was even a 4th round pick himself, although I don't think that means all too much in negotiations but just another log in the pile of similarities between the two.

 

[PB37]

There's lots of issues I have with the people arguing for the #1 type philosophy but there's one main issue I have with it in regards to Swayman, and it's this:
The huge majority of people now saying Swayman hasn't proven anything and doesn't "deserve" to be paid like a top 5 goalie are the same people who all during the season were talking about Swayman being a top 5 goalie and an untouchable player on the team. They were all for trading a vezina winning Ullmark in order to clear the way for Sway. There was almost no talk of "Well maybe we shouldn't... maybe Sway can't handle a 60 game load.

I'd just like to imagine this scenario- All goalies in the NHL are miraculously made UFAs. Name all of the goalies you'd take ahead of Swayman to be your goalie for the next 8 years.

You keep rolling out this " same people " lumping stance when you don't have any real proof of this. It only sounds good when making your argument.

 

[UncleRico]

The short term oettinger type bridge deal isn’t going to happen. The time for that was before arbitration last year.

The bruins couldn’t offer that due to not having cap space. They didn’t have cap space because of poor cap management by Sweeney/Evan Gold bringing back bergeron/krejci on a bonus heavy contract that was reflected on last season cap.

Everyone said they were willing to do it at the time. Well now is where is it affecting the future of the team because the bruins weren’t in a position to give swayman a bridge contract last year.

 

[PB37]

The new era of Bruins likely saw how little it mattered in the end as Sweeney was never able to leverage it into a Cup win (or more). Cannot blame either core of players.

Players have nobody to blame but themselves for 2019 and 2022.

 

[Over the volcano]

Saros when he signed his contract at 26. Both with nearly the same accomplishments in the league and NHL status ( hovering around the Vezina conversation while in a 1a/1b goaltender tandem ). Saros was even a 4th round pick himself, although I don't think that means all too much in negotiations but just another log in the pile of similarities between the two.

Adjusted for the rising cap that deal would be 4 years at 5.4 mil/per today.

 

[PB37]

Adjusted for the rising cap that deal would be 4 years at 5.4 mil/per today.

Career earnings up to this point in time in their careers ( going into their third contract ) are nearly the same as well, both around 6.6 mill.

 

[Mad-Marcus]

I have yet to see a comp for swayman that’s realistic.

Show me comps with the following criteria:

-25 year old
- all star
- 1 year arbitration deal due to team not having cap space for a bridge deal
- following year both teams don’t elect for arbitration

Exactly, it's difficult, because of the limited size of his resume.
Yes 1 All Star appearance in which he played average to poor(for him) for the next 6 weeks.
The B's did him a solid by not taking the 2 year Arb deal. I assume it was an olive branch to get this next contract done.
Slotting his comps' between Sorokin and Gibson puts him around 7.5M, I feel like I'm stuttering, because that, as I see it is the fair number

 

[SwayHeyKid]

Saros when he signed his contract at 26. Both with nearly the same accomplishments in the league and NHL status ( hovering around the Vezina conversation while in a 1a/1b goaltender tandem ). Saros was even a 4th round pick himself, although I don't think that means all too much in negotiations but just another log in the pile of similarities between the two.

We are using a guy who just undersold himself using his jersey number as a salary?

I’ll use Rask as my comp.

 

[Bodit9]

I have yet to see a comp for swayman that’s realistic.

Show me comps with the following criteria:

-25 year old
- all star
- 1 year arbitration deal due to team not having cap space for a bridge deal
- following year both teams don’t elect for arbitration

You ignore all the comps.

 

[ON3M4N]

My comment stands. Ask yourself why he isn't.
I made some comments back in July about this situation and that he is going to get PAID.
It's clear the Bruins made moves and left cap space to slot him in, but apparently that isn't enough.....

Why isn't he in camp? Because he doesn't have a contract. Why would he go to camp and risk getting hurt. If he gets hurt with no contract then he's not getting paid and potentially misses a season.

Do you work for free?

 

[GordonHowe]

I realize many here are not Joe Haggerty fans.

However, as with Ty Anderson, Haggerty has some perceptive things to say about the present circumstance.

I would therefore urge viewing the episode of "Pucks with Haggs," featuring guest Evan Marinofsky, posted last night.

Haggerty posits that if this thing does not get done within a week or two, the likelihood is that the Bruins will trade Jeremy Swayman.

At this point, I have to agree.

There are reasons for this.

Sweeney does not like Swayman's agent. To understate the matter considerably.

He likely feels the negotiating demand relative to payout and term is unearned and hence unwarranted.

The Bruins will not alter the way they do business to satisfy a headstrong, perhaps overreaching Swayman or assuage his pique over a bruising arbitration process he himself requested.

They are not going to treat a largely unproven Swayman as a special case deserving of dollars & years based on a small sample size and hope.

More to the point, Sweeney will not allow the situation to change or undermine the justly vaunted Bruins "culture."

Rather, if the Swayman camp remains unbending and a deal is not struck fairly soon, the player will be traded for the best return.

As Haggerty and Marinofsky correctly point out, Jeremy has flourished in a winning organization, surrounded by solid, talented teammates and a stable system.

It is unlikely he would enjoy a similar environment in Anaheim, Columbus, Utah or San Jose.

There is a point at which Swayman's insistence on digging in his heels begins to appear less the position of a principaled superstar in the making than the behavior of an immature, selfish young man willing to torpedo his teammates and flip off the fans in service of his own ego.

I believe we are at that point now.

I hope things work out, one way or another.

 

[UConn126]

I'm warming up to the idea of trading $wayman if it'll bring in some scoring help. I have every bit of confidence that our defense and coach Essenza can make something out of Korpi and Bussi.